Author Topic: NCS NGC fees going up!  (Read 14855 times)

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Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 08:48:59 PM »
THere is also an incentive to keep estimated prices lower too. The estimated price is their liability if they screw up. Of course, the question then becomes "When do they adjust the estimated value? Is it before, or after they screw up?".

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »
THere is also an incentive to keep estimated prices lower too. The estimated price is their liability if they screw up. Of course, the question then becomes "When do they adjust the estimated value? Is it before, or after they screw up?".

The fees they will collect for over estimated coins will be more than sufficient to cover any mistakes they may do. That is if they don't change their liability policy as well. I won't be surprised if that is next, decreasing their liability after a certain amount of time since a coin was graded.

exchange
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:26:31 PM by exchange »

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 09:30:17 PM »
I believe the grading services are going to be forced back onto a trend of focusing their services to grading and identification only, with authentication being left open to discovery. The grade will be where their real value is added, and the identification will have to be flexible to keep up with new discoveries. That's why the Coin Compendium gives every coin a CC specimen number, which can then be connected with any type, and changed very easily.

I suspect someday NGC and PCGS will eventually find that their in-house databases are well-augmented or even replaced by the CC. The inflexible old ways of doing things inevitably cannot keep up with the CC.

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 09:55:30 PM »
The fees they will collect for over estimated coins will be more than sufficient to cover any mistakes they may do. That is if they don't change their liability policy as well. I won't be surprised if that is next, decreasing their liability after a certain amount of time since a coin was graded.

exchange

I never went to their policy page as I never had a reason to, so I decided to take a look.

From their policy, revised on 12/20/2011

"Due to the volatile nature of the coin market and Internet auctions / sales as well as the differences in buying habits of different individuals, selling prices in these auctions / sales, do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular coin. Accordingly, NGC will determine the current fair market value of a coin based upon what NGC believes, in its sole opinion, to be reliable current market information"


http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp

exchange

« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:06:17 PM by exchange »

Offline BobW

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 11:53:02 PM »
This move by NCS/NGC reminds me of the Netflix fiasco last year.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2012, 12:01:12 AM »
http://www.fastcompany.com/1781162/netflix-what-weve-got-here-is-a-failure-to-communicate

NetFlix CEO:

This is the key thing I got wrong...In hindsight, I slid into arrogance based upon past success. We have done very well for a long time by steadily improving our service, without doing much CEO communication. Inside Netflix I say, 'Actions speak louder than words,' and we should just keep improving our service. But now I see that given the huge changes we have been recently making, I should have personally given a full justification to our members of why we are separating DVD and streaming, and charging for both.

The author's commentary:

When introducing the company's 60% rate increase back in July--the announcement which sparked this fiasco--Netflix customers' reactions were universally negative. What many found disheartening more than subscription changes themselves was the way Netflix communicated about them: automating the price increase, then framing it as a "terrific value" that offers consumers more "choice."

That about sums it up.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2012, 12:19:14 AM »
While I think raising price twice in rapid succession is a lousy PR move for NGC, I would buy their stock now if they are a public company.  They are a more viable company now.  NGC can do worse, they can do what Netflix, Rush Limbaugh, and Plan-Parenthood-fiasco did:  Change its mind and apologize.

Don't ever do that.  Make a decision based on sound business reason, stick to your gun, and never apologize.  Raising price is never popular and some customers will walk away, but that's no reason to commit financial suicide.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2012, 12:33:03 AM »
It's not the apology and mind-changing that is disasterous, it's screwing that up too that is disasterous:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/09/why-rush-limbaugh-s-apology-for-sandra-fluke-slut-remarks-bombed.html

If there is a mass exodus of NGC's financial support, they will have no choice but to backtrack, regardless of how it turns out. NGC is a lot less arrogant than Rush Limbaugh though, so I think they'll handle it well, if that's what happens.

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2012, 03:29:15 AM »
Its official--Im not going to be sending in coins to NCS/NGC anytime soon, "Hello PCGS".

Offline fractalfate

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »
PCGS is publicly traded: ticker CLCT at $16.95 a share with 7.6% annual dividend as of this minute. As a disclaimer, I have owned this stock in my portfolio for two years now.

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »
7.6% is not bad BUT one needs 9-11% just to break even with non-governmental inflation figures such as John Williams from Shadow Stats.  However, let this be known that this JW told many people the US will experience hyperinflation.  To date there has been no hyperinflation.   

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2012, 04:00:18 PM »
I think a lot of people see hyperinflation as inevitable for a fiat currency. Actually, it's just one of the many possible final stages of death for a fiat currency. In modern times, currencies are often euthanized before the painful hyperinflation death, usually by a planned or unplanned (surprise!) devaluation. The planned devaluations usually force people to trade in their devalued currency for a new currency at an unfavorable exchange rate.
But, that way the government gets to keep claiming that they're honest...

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2012, 08:35:32 PM »
I just submitted 2 gold panda sets to NCS / NGC.  The price I will have to pay makes me feel violated.  Using $1700 as the gold spot price to put a value on the forms I came up with these numbers.

To conserve and grade the 1/4, 1/2, 1 oz:
   $150.00  - Conservation
   $16.50 x 3 - Grading
   $12.00 x 3 - Variety Designation
 TOTAL:  235.50 or 7.8% of gold value

To conserve and grade the 1/20 & 1/10:

   $26.50 x 2 - Conservation / Grading
   $12.00 x 2 - Variety Designation

TOTAL:  $77.00 or 30% of gold value

Total cost of $312.50 or 9.6%.  Plus if you add $36 for my cost of shipping USPS Express (thats without insurance!) plus return shipping of approximately $45.00 from NGC via USPS registered it brings the total cost to conserve and grade a set to $393.50 or a whopping $12%!!

This same set under the old pricing of last year would have cost $22.50 per coin for conservation and grading and no variety fee for a total of $112.50 + $81 shipping or 193.50 or 6%.

It costs 100% more now to grade a set.  I don't believe this is very sustainable for sets that tie closely to bullion.

If you take out the shipping cost from the new pricing and the old pricing you get $312.50 or 9.6% vs 112.50 or 3.5%.  The actual cost of NGC's services have increased nearly $275%!!

All I can say is SWEET! It looks like we better learn to remove copper spots off our own coins.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »
I'm skeptical that this new pricing will last, in exactly the same form it exists in today. It depends on whether there's a backlash or not, I guess. It's suddenly very expensive to grade anything, even high-end coins that are not closely tied to bullion. From a collector point of view, maybe the extra cost doesn't matter. But, from an investor point of view, that just shut out a large fraction of the entire numismatic market.

10%+ annual profits are pretty good during stable inflation. During high inflation, 10% may not be good enough. With the grading services taking that much of the pie off the table, there are not many coins left that can appreciate in value enough to justify the investment in getting the coins graded.

Even dealers operate on fairly thin profit margins for large volume-grading of more common coins. I'd be surprised if there's any profit left at all for a dealer trying to utilize NCS/NGC. Everybody is going to have to learn to be their own conservators, or, maybe there will be a new conservation cottage industry pop up in local dealer shops that breaks up NCS's previously well-deserved monopoly on the markt?

low

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2012, 09:05:41 PM »
Perhaps its about the right time for large copper medal. They are cheap, beautiful and rare with usual mintage around 500 - 5000.