Author Topic: NCS NGC fees going up!  (Read 12149 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2244
  • Karma: 118
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 12:22:54 PM »
I downloaded NCS submission form this morning, and sure enough the coin value has been lowered from $3000 to $300.  I went ahead and filled out the form and sent in 10 more coins.  I'll probably get flamed for this, but this is my rational: $26.50 for coin value up to $3000 is just unsustainable.  That's less than 1% insurance fee, not to say all the expense of slabbing and grading.  All submission are not $3000/coin, so the risk is spread to the lower value/risk coins, but that just can't last.  By moving the limit to $300, the liability is reduced 10x, and the likelihood of fake coin is also reduced (I think they specifically lower to $300 to reduce exposure to the yr 2000 silver panda fake).  Modern coin grading can now be a production line operated with junor graders.

Yea, it is a lousy PR move having two price raises in rapid succession.  They going to get a lot of hate mails and reduced sale volume.  But you know what, I'm going to take advantage of this.

Offline Obsidian

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
  • Karma: 32
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 12:45:14 PM »
By moving the limit to $300, the liability is reduced 10x, and the likelihood of fake coin is also reduced (I think they specifically lower to $300 to reduce exposure to the yr 2000 silver panda fake)

They really don't remove the risk because anyone can still just do a normal NGC submission of their coins at a very low cost and with the same guarantee.

The big complaint about this move is for NCS conservation.  That cost has gone up dramatically.  NGC has effectively done away with conservation on Gold Pandas with this move.  I know a number of pandas I have that aren't graded will either go to PCGS, just NGC for grading, or more likely I'll just keep them raw for the time being.  I won't be sending them to NCS.  This makes buying raw pandas tough, especially if you know they have copper spots.  You might as well add anywhere from $75-$200 to every raw gold coin for grading.

Any large increase in what I consider a "soft" cost of the hobby is damaging.  It has the similar effect that a large increase in interest rate would have on the housing market.  Increases cost of ownership with no tangible benefit.

Offline Batman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Karma: 11
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 12:57:47 PM »
This price increase will impact the dealer/investor greatly.  As for the collector, conservation and preservation are keys to any long term collection, and the additional price to pay, while an increase, is still probably worth the money (especially for silver).

The impact to the dealer/investor will see margins squeezed and you may see less seller's out there...and less 69 grades as dealers opt for no conversation on gold coins.  If I am reading NCS' website correctly, all coins submitted thru NCS are graded at "Standard" NGC fees.  This is about $35, plus $12 if you want a variety on the label!! This could add an additional $100 easily to the price of a one ounce gold coin.  Either the market will pay for the price increase or the dealer/investor will fade into the bamboo.  As a reminder this class makes money on turning OMP into 69 grades. If the 69 grades are harder to come by or more expensive, profits will be less, etc. etc.

It should be an interesting 6 months to watch this unfold.  If the market accepts the price increases, no harm, no foul.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2244
  • Karma: 118
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 01:11:04 PM »
Addressing your points in reverse:
Like people with low interest assumable mortgage can sell better into a high interest market, people sitting on a pile of conserved & graded coins can now add on the higher conservation cost into their coins.  Instant profit.

Gold coins with copper spot will definitely be hurt by this.  Since I have gold coins in OMP developing copper spots, now I really want to know whether OMP plastic is responsible for the copper spot and will my other gold coins in OMP develop copper spot later on.  It is now a $150 question per $3000 coin.

One strategy is not to conserve the gold coin.  If copper spot developed later, send them back in and demand NGC make you whole with their grade gurantee.

One can always sent in coins below the $300 limit.  I sent in a Kublai Khan with $100 value, but it was graded PF70, so I'm now on pins and needles hoping the package don't get lost.

The bad news is this: grading price will keep going up faster.  Market is soft right now, but when it picks up or even just the normal rise associated with inflation, that pile of graded coins will be even more expensive.  If a fake is uncovered or coin degraded inside NGC holder, NGC is compelled to pay the current, higher price to make you whole.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 02:50:53 PM »
people sitting on a pile of conserved & graded coins can now add on the higher conservation cost into their coins.  Instant profit.

This is the key bit of info that everyone should know. Raid eBay NOW to get them while you can at cheap prices. Everyone who has been buying high grade, conserved coins will be rewarded.

Offline comeaux

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Karma: 61
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 03:34:18 PM »
Original Mint Package (OMP) will now be so in demand.  Thank you for bringing the price of OMP up.

Conversely I would believe that the price/value of graded coins has just increased as dealers will factor this increased NCS cost into their prices. It’s possible that those who tend to purchase OMP coins with the intention of submitting them for grading will be inclined to just purchase certain coins already graded and avoid OMP or be willing to pay less for OMP.

As far as the "effectice date" of increase ... it was supposed to be March 1st, I submitted some gold & platinum pandas last week on March 9th and the 3.3 oz medals on the 6th, I just called and confirmed that these will be honored at the old prices and that the new prices are in effect as of today.

Maybe I’m the odd man out but this price increase doesn’t really get me all worked up as I have the option (just like everyone else) to utilize one of the other grading companies or opt out of the conservation process and just get coins graded without conservation.       

Offline Obsidian

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
  • Karma: 32
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
This is the key bit of info that everyone should know. Raid eBay NOW to get them while you can at cheap prices. Everyone who has been buying high grade, conserved coins will be rewarded.

I know in theory that makes sense.  In the short term it will have this effect.  In reality though this change still has a negative impact on everyone.  Money is a resource.  Collectors have a limited supply of money to put into coins.  Any money that is shifted away from the collectors and into the hands of a service provider, NCS in this case, takes money away from the coins being collected.  We are assuming that this will just increase the price premium on the coin.  An equally likely scenario is given a limited resource (money), this could actually just DECREASE the premium over spot people are willing to pay for coins.  Coins that are closely tied to bullion will no longer be conserved and possibly even graded.

In the end, things will be smoothed out, it is just annoying that NGC makes such a drastic and broad sweeping change with little notice or input from customers.  And yes, you can just submit your coins to another company but in reality we are limited to ONE other company that doesen't offer conserving at this moment.  If they do, you can bet it will now be priced similarly to NCS.  Also, if you have a majority of your coins graded by one company and with both companies now being exclusive with their registry sets you really are being forced to pick one or the other.  I believe all of these recent changes are moves in the WRONG direction for either company, particularly NGC because these areas are where they shined in contrast to PCGS.


Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 04:02:21 PM »
That's a lot of interesting insights from you, Obsidian. I believe you are absolutely correct, in every way. These changes all seem to be in response to increasingly tough competition amongst NGC and PCGS. What these companies are good at is grading (and conservation, for NCS). All the other things they're trying to do, like registry sets, etc, will eventually be overshadowed by the Coin Compendium, which is steadfastly specialist in what it does.

NGC and PCGS are moving in the wrong direction, just like you said. And, it will either hurt them and us, or it will hurt them only, and help a third newcomer gain market share, while the collectors benefit from the increased competition that forces the grading services to turn their focus back toward what they do best.

I'm hoping ANACS will recognize an opportunity and successfully exploit it, for the benefit of the most important part of the market - us. With the Coin Compendium, it should be straightforward for ANACS (or another upstart) to demonstrate consistency in their grading standards that is equal to or better than NGC and PCGS, using the CC's image annotation feature. Confidence in quality and expertise is the only thing holding back the rise of a strong third competitor in coin certification.

Online r3globe

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
  • Karma: 20
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 06:02:59 PM »
I wonder if this price hike will make collectors shift their sights back to quality coins in OMP!I can hear Exchange laughing all the way to his safety deposit box  :tongue_smilie:

Offline exchange

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: 20
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 06:37:24 PM »
I'm hoping ANACS will recognize an opportunity and successfully exploit it, for the benefit of the most important part of the market - us.

Hi Badon,

I wrote this a little while ago in regards to ANACS. I'll post it here again as the ANACS topic has come up.

Anacs have now become graders for tv shopping networks. No true collector would ever consider them an added value. TV shopping networks such as HSN use Anacs so they can rip off the unsuspecting customer in buying a 2012 issue coin and charge double spot for an AGE. So many Anacs coins that are graded MS70 are the laughing stock of the industry.

exchange

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 07:14:54 PM »
Yes, I remember that post, but they could reinvent themselves. I have only seen a few ANACS coins, and the ones I saw appeared to be properly graded. I don't think their problem is entirely consistent or accurate grading - I think it's mostly the market domination of PCGS and NGC that shut them out. If I remember correctly, NGC hired away their best graders, so I'm sure there's room for improvement in their grading.

But, before anyone will accept their grading, we need to see lots of them with hi-res photos compared to each other, so we will be convinced they're doing a top quality job of grading.

Of course, there could be a totally new market entry from a completely different company. A competing conservation company could succeed, since there's only one major one right now.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2244
  • Karma: 118
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 07:39:20 PM »
I think the new grading company is likely China-based.  China is big enough to support a grading company of its own.  The writing will be in Chinese, don't have to worry about import/export fee, can communicate with grader within China, shipping will be cheaper, and turn around time will be shorter.  Why would Chinese collectors send Chinese coins to America to be graded with strange writing is beyond. me.

Offline adamc4

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 616
  • Karma: 2
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 07:47:56 PM »
"A 5% fee to remove a few copper spots on a 1 oz gold panda is crap."

Agreed. If I've got the new fees correct, you're looking at paying $500 to get a $10,000 coin conserved and graded. That's... enough money to make me seriously consider getting everything graded by PCGS from here on out.

I really wish NGC would just stamp the paper label they put inside holders with a "NCS" symbol or something. Conservation is now a costly service and I feel there should be a more concrete way for people to tell if coins have been conserved or not.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 07:50:54 PM »
I really wish NGC would just stamp the paper label they put inside holders with a "NCS" symbol or something. Conservation is now a costly service and I feel there should be a more concrete way for people to tell if coins have been conserved or not.

+1

If those costs can't be recovered from increased sale prices, then there's no point.

Offline exchange

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: 20
Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 08:32:23 PM »

If I've got the new fees correct, you're looking at paying $500 to get a $10,000 coin conserved and graded. That's... enough money to make me seriously consider getting everything graded by PCGS from here on out.


Based on this, there will be an incentive for the grading company to over estimate the price of a coin. It seems now the more value is assigned to a coin, the bigger the fees will be. That is very dangerous to the collector \ investor as it is not guaranteed a coin will maintain its value. Just recently we have seen 50% haircuts on coins. Imagine that $10,000 coin been worth $5000 or less, 10%+ would of went to fees.

exchange