Author Topic: NCS NGC fees going up!  (Read 13292 times)

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Offline comeaux

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NCS NGC fees going up!
« on: March 11, 2012, 10:39:48 PM »
Passed on to me from one of the masters here on CCF ... price for grading & conservation is going up !
I also heard this is retroactive as of March 1st  :(

A. Standard conservation with grading. Conserve all coins and submit to NGC for grading.*

B. Standard conservation and return raw. Conserve all coins and return without grading*

C. Modern conservation with grading. (Any uncertified us or foreign coin 1970 to date, valued $300 or less) Modern fee is $26 50/coin, includes conservation and grading

*What this means is for coins valued above $300 we will have to pay 1% for evalation, plus 4% for conservation, plus grading fee between $14-$50 depending on the coins value. So a $3000 coin will cost $180 for conservation and grading vs $22.50 last year and $26.50 in January/Febraury.

STANDARD CONSERVATION FEES:

1. Evaluation Fee: 1% of declared value per coin, minimum $5. Service Description: Item examined by a conservation expert to determine what conservation work, if any, should be performed. All graded coins, excluding details and genuine holders, will be returned as is if conservation is not performed, and only the Evaluation Fee will be charged by NCS. Coin(s) holdered by any service other than NGC or PCGS will be treated as raw coin(s) and removed from their holders. In order to submit coins that are in holders other than NGC or PCGS, you must initial section 5, Conservation Services, on the front of this form confirming you have read the terms and conditions regarding the Consent to Remove Coin(s) from Holder(s) information below, prior to any work being performed by NCS. Coins that are in either NGC or PCGS holders and cannot benefit from conservation will be returned and the customer will only be charged the 1% evaluation fee.

2. Conservation Fee: 4% of declared value up to $150,000 per coin, and 2% of declared value over $150,000 per coin, minimum $15.
Service Description: Appropriate conservation is performed.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 10:52:52 PM »
I split this into its own topic so people can find it. Thanks for the update, is it on NGC's website?

Offline comeaux

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 11:14:54 PM »
is it on NGC's website?
Not yet on NGC but it came from a source that is highly reputable ... 

I have heard the "heavy hitters" are circulating emails right now and are furious about this.

Offline fractalfate

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 11:25:03 PM »
I saw the updated fee schedule on NCS' site last night. Here's the link: http://www.ncscoin.com/faqs.asp
This sucks. The have a monopoly on the market. What else can you say?

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 11:27:12 PM »

low

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 11:30:13 PM »
It is on NCS website. Not sure if the $300 is a typo mistake. Perhaps it should be $3000.

http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/services_and_fees.asp

Offline comeaux

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 11:30:47 PM »
PCGS
they will follow with something as well I'm sure

I did not see the update on NGC but maybe I didnt look hard enough but I did hear this.

Offline BobW

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 12:26:09 AM »
Those may indeed be the new fees but they cannot change them retroactively.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 12:41:55 AM »
Those may indeed be the new fees but they cannot change them retroactively.
Unless you are the CEO of NGC, yes they sure can ... if anybody did not like it then they could just send their coins back ungraded. 

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 01:39:42 AM »
I have 20 coins in NCS/NGC right now with the old price.  I'll see how that work out.

Unless NGC thinks they are Greece, raise price retroactively does put them in serious trouble with Florida attorney general.  We'll see.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 03:19:43 AM »
And this is another reason why I hate having to pick one company or the other.  This new NCS policy pretty much makes it cost prohibitive to NCS gold coins.  A 5% fee to remove a few copper spots on a 1 oz gold panda is crap.  These are the same prices you would pay to NCS some old US coins with toning, dirt, or whatever else is on it.  That process takes a whole lot longer than conserving some modern chinese coin.  And yes this pricing is official.  It is on the NCS submission form.  NGC / NCS can kiss my you know what.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:26:43 AM by Obsidian »

Offline BChung

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 06:15:57 AM »
I love how some companies always manage to drive their customers away eventually.......

Offline Pandana

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 10:11:30 AM »
Thank you NGC so much for increasing your fees:

1.  My membership with you is no longer needed.  I will let mine lapsed, when the time come.  Thank you for saving me some $.
2.  Original Mint Package (OMP) will now be so in demand.  Thank you for bringing the price of OMP up. 


Offline dragondollar

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 11:00:39 AM »
Hmm by the way, is it possible to specify what NCS should do? I have a pretty nice 1904 TH Kiangnan dollar which could grade MS60 if not for the fingerprint on it. It is nicely toned as well. If I gave this coin to NCS, I would like them to remove the fingerprint, but keep the toning intact as much as possible. I am afraid to get the coin back all white and shiny...

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 12:22:17 PM »
It is on NCS website. Not sure if the $300 is a typo mistake. Perhaps it should be $3000.

http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/services_and_fees.asp

confirmed:
Zero omitted is NOT at typo... arbitrarily dropped a zero from their maximum valuation for "modern" tier services. Price change is EFFECTIVE today with a reduction in value of services offered by 10 fold with no prior warning and no formal announcement.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 12:22:54 PM »
I downloaded NCS submission form this morning, and sure enough the coin value has been lowered from $3000 to $300.  I went ahead and filled out the form and sent in 10 more coins.  I'll probably get flamed for this, but this is my rational: $26.50 for coin value up to $3000 is just unsustainable.  That's less than 1% insurance fee, not to say all the expense of slabbing and grading.  All submission are not $3000/coin, so the risk is spread to the lower value/risk coins, but that just can't last.  By moving the limit to $300, the liability is reduced 10x, and the likelihood of fake coin is also reduced (I think they specifically lower to $300 to reduce exposure to the yr 2000 silver panda fake).  Modern coin grading can now be a production line operated with junor graders.

Yea, it is a lousy PR move having two price raises in rapid succession.  They going to get a lot of hate mails and reduced sale volume.  But you know what, I'm going to take advantage of this.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 12:45:14 PM »
By moving the limit to $300, the liability is reduced 10x, and the likelihood of fake coin is also reduced (I think they specifically lower to $300 to reduce exposure to the yr 2000 silver panda fake)

They really don't remove the risk because anyone can still just do a normal NGC submission of their coins at a very low cost and with the same guarantee.

The big complaint about this move is for NCS conservation.  That cost has gone up dramatically.  NGC has effectively done away with conservation on Gold Pandas with this move.  I know a number of pandas I have that aren't graded will either go to PCGS, just NGC for grading, or more likely I'll just keep them raw for the time being.  I won't be sending them to NCS.  This makes buying raw pandas tough, especially if you know they have copper spots.  You might as well add anywhere from $75-$200 to every raw gold coin for grading.

Any large increase in what I consider a "soft" cost of the hobby is damaging.  It has the similar effect that a large increase in interest rate would have on the housing market.  Increases cost of ownership with no tangible benefit.

Offline Batman

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 12:57:47 PM »
This price increase will impact the dealer/investor greatly.  As for the collector, conservation and preservation are keys to any long term collection, and the additional price to pay, while an increase, is still probably worth the money (especially for silver).

The impact to the dealer/investor will see margins squeezed and you may see less seller's out there...and less 69 grades as dealers opt for no conversation on gold coins.  If I am reading NCS' website correctly, all coins submitted thru NCS are graded at "Standard" NGC fees.  This is about $35, plus $12 if you want a variety on the label!! This could add an additional $100 easily to the price of a one ounce gold coin.  Either the market will pay for the price increase or the dealer/investor will fade into the bamboo.  As a reminder this class makes money on turning OMP into 69 grades. If the 69 grades are harder to come by or more expensive, profits will be less, etc. etc.

It should be an interesting 6 months to watch this unfold.  If the market accepts the price increases, no harm, no foul.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 01:11:04 PM »
Addressing your points in reverse:
Like people with low interest assumable mortgage can sell better into a high interest market, people sitting on a pile of conserved & graded coins can now add on the higher conservation cost into their coins.  Instant profit.

Gold coins with copper spot will definitely be hurt by this.  Since I have gold coins in OMP developing copper spots, now I really want to know whether OMP plastic is responsible for the copper spot and will my other gold coins in OMP develop copper spot later on.  It is now a $150 question per $3000 coin.

One strategy is not to conserve the gold coin.  If copper spot developed later, send them back in and demand NGC make you whole with their grade gurantee.

One can always sent in coins below the $300 limit.  I sent in a Kublai Khan with $100 value, but it was graded PF70, so I'm now on pins and needles hoping the package don't get lost.

The bad news is this: grading price will keep going up faster.  Market is soft right now, but when it picks up or even just the normal rise associated with inflation, that pile of graded coins will be even more expensive.  If a fake is uncovered or coin degraded inside NGC holder, NGC is compelled to pay the current, higher price to make you whole.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 02:50:53 PM »
people sitting on a pile of conserved & graded coins can now add on the higher conservation cost into their coins.  Instant profit.

This is the key bit of info that everyone should know. Raid eBay NOW to get them while you can at cheap prices. Everyone who has been buying high grade, conserved coins will be rewarded.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 03:34:18 PM »
Original Mint Package (OMP) will now be so in demand.  Thank you for bringing the price of OMP up.

Conversely I would believe that the price/value of graded coins has just increased as dealers will factor this increased NCS cost into their prices. It’s possible that those who tend to purchase OMP coins with the intention of submitting them for grading will be inclined to just purchase certain coins already graded and avoid OMP or be willing to pay less for OMP.

As far as the "effectice date" of increase ... it was supposed to be March 1st, I submitted some gold & platinum pandas last week on March 9th and the 3.3 oz medals on the 6th, I just called and confirmed that these will be honored at the old prices and that the new prices are in effect as of today.

Maybe I’m the odd man out but this price increase doesn’t really get me all worked up as I have the option (just like everyone else) to utilize one of the other grading companies or opt out of the conservation process and just get coins graded without conservation.       

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
This is the key bit of info that everyone should know. Raid eBay NOW to get them while you can at cheap prices. Everyone who has been buying high grade, conserved coins will be rewarded.

I know in theory that makes sense.  In the short term it will have this effect.  In reality though this change still has a negative impact on everyone.  Money is a resource.  Collectors have a limited supply of money to put into coins.  Any money that is shifted away from the collectors and into the hands of a service provider, NCS in this case, takes money away from the coins being collected.  We are assuming that this will just increase the price premium on the coin.  An equally likely scenario is given a limited resource (money), this could actually just DECREASE the premium over spot people are willing to pay for coins.  Coins that are closely tied to bullion will no longer be conserved and possibly even graded.

In the end, things will be smoothed out, it is just annoying that NGC makes such a drastic and broad sweeping change with little notice or input from customers.  And yes, you can just submit your coins to another company but in reality we are limited to ONE other company that doesen't offer conserving at this moment.  If they do, you can bet it will now be priced similarly to NCS.  Also, if you have a majority of your coins graded by one company and with both companies now being exclusive with their registry sets you really are being forced to pick one or the other.  I believe all of these recent changes are moves in the WRONG direction for either company, particularly NGC because these areas are where they shined in contrast to PCGS.


Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 04:02:21 PM »
That's a lot of interesting insights from you, Obsidian. I believe you are absolutely correct, in every way. These changes all seem to be in response to increasingly tough competition amongst NGC and PCGS. What these companies are good at is grading (and conservation, for NCS). All the other things they're trying to do, like registry sets, etc, will eventually be overshadowed by the Coin Compendium, which is steadfastly specialist in what it does.

NGC and PCGS are moving in the wrong direction, just like you said. And, it will either hurt them and us, or it will hurt them only, and help a third newcomer gain market share, while the collectors benefit from the increased competition that forces the grading services to turn their focus back toward what they do best.

I'm hoping ANACS will recognize an opportunity and successfully exploit it, for the benefit of the most important part of the market - us. With the Coin Compendium, it should be straightforward for ANACS (or another upstart) to demonstrate consistency in their grading standards that is equal to or better than NGC and PCGS, using the CC's image annotation feature. Confidence in quality and expertise is the only thing holding back the rise of a strong third competitor in coin certification.

Offline r3globe

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 06:02:59 PM »
I wonder if this price hike will make collectors shift their sights back to quality coins in OMP!I can hear Exchange laughing all the way to his safety deposit box  :tongue_smilie:

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 06:37:24 PM »
I'm hoping ANACS will recognize an opportunity and successfully exploit it, for the benefit of the most important part of the market - us.

Hi Badon,

I wrote this a little while ago in regards to ANACS. I'll post it here again as the ANACS topic has come up.

Anacs have now become graders for tv shopping networks. No true collector would ever consider them an added value. TV shopping networks such as HSN use Anacs so they can rip off the unsuspecting customer in buying a 2012 issue coin and charge double spot for an AGE. So many Anacs coins that are graded MS70 are the laughing stock of the industry.

exchange

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 07:14:54 PM »
Yes, I remember that post, but they could reinvent themselves. I have only seen a few ANACS coins, and the ones I saw appeared to be properly graded. I don't think their problem is entirely consistent or accurate grading - I think it's mostly the market domination of PCGS and NGC that shut them out. If I remember correctly, NGC hired away their best graders, so I'm sure there's room for improvement in their grading.

But, before anyone will accept their grading, we need to see lots of them with hi-res photos compared to each other, so we will be convinced they're doing a top quality job of grading.

Of course, there could be a totally new market entry from a completely different company. A competing conservation company could succeed, since there's only one major one right now.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 07:39:20 PM »
I think the new grading company is likely China-based.  China is big enough to support a grading company of its own.  The writing will be in Chinese, don't have to worry about import/export fee, can communicate with grader within China, shipping will be cheaper, and turn around time will be shorter.  Why would Chinese collectors send Chinese coins to America to be graded with strange writing is beyond. me.

Offline adamc4

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 07:47:56 PM »
"A 5% fee to remove a few copper spots on a 1 oz gold panda is crap."

Agreed. If I've got the new fees correct, you're looking at paying $500 to get a $10,000 coin conserved and graded. That's... enough money to make me seriously consider getting everything graded by PCGS from here on out.

I really wish NGC would just stamp the paper label they put inside holders with a "NCS" symbol or something. Conservation is now a costly service and I feel there should be a more concrete way for people to tell if coins have been conserved or not.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 07:50:54 PM »
I really wish NGC would just stamp the paper label they put inside holders with a "NCS" symbol or something. Conservation is now a costly service and I feel there should be a more concrete way for people to tell if coins have been conserved or not.

+1

If those costs can't be recovered from increased sale prices, then there's no point.

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 08:32:23 PM »

If I've got the new fees correct, you're looking at paying $500 to get a $10,000 coin conserved and graded. That's... enough money to make me seriously consider getting everything graded by PCGS from here on out.


Based on this, there will be an incentive for the grading company to over estimate the price of a coin. It seems now the more value is assigned to a coin, the bigger the fees will be. That is very dangerous to the collector \ investor as it is not guaranteed a coin will maintain its value. Just recently we have seen 50% haircuts on coins. Imagine that $10,000 coin been worth $5000 or less, 10%+ would of went to fees.

exchange

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 08:48:59 PM »
THere is also an incentive to keep estimated prices lower too. The estimated price is their liability if they screw up. Of course, the question then becomes "When do they adjust the estimated value? Is it before, or after they screw up?".

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »
THere is also an incentive to keep estimated prices lower too. The estimated price is their liability if they screw up. Of course, the question then becomes "When do they adjust the estimated value? Is it before, or after they screw up?".

The fees they will collect for over estimated coins will be more than sufficient to cover any mistakes they may do. That is if they don't change their liability policy as well. I won't be surprised if that is next, decreasing their liability after a certain amount of time since a coin was graded.

exchange
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:26:31 PM by exchange »

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 09:30:17 PM »
I believe the grading services are going to be forced back onto a trend of focusing their services to grading and identification only, with authentication being left open to discovery. The grade will be where their real value is added, and the identification will have to be flexible to keep up with new discoveries. That's why the Coin Compendium gives every coin a CC specimen number, which can then be connected with any type, and changed very easily.

I suspect someday NGC and PCGS will eventually find that their in-house databases are well-augmented or even replaced by the CC. The inflexible old ways of doing things inevitably cannot keep up with the CC.

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 09:55:30 PM »
The fees they will collect for over estimated coins will be more than sufficient to cover any mistakes they may do. That is if they don't change their liability policy as well. I won't be surprised if that is next, decreasing their liability after a certain amount of time since a coin was graded.

exchange

I never went to their policy page as I never had a reason to, so I decided to take a look.

From their policy, revised on 12/20/2011

"Due to the volatile nature of the coin market and Internet auctions / sales as well as the differences in buying habits of different individuals, selling prices in these auctions / sales, do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular coin. Accordingly, NGC will determine the current fair market value of a coin based upon what NGC believes, in its sole opinion, to be reliable current market information"


http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp

exchange

« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:06:17 PM by exchange »

Offline BobW

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 11:53:02 PM »
This move by NCS/NGC reminds me of the Netflix fiasco last year.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2012, 12:01:12 AM »
http://www.fastcompany.com/1781162/netflix-what-weve-got-here-is-a-failure-to-communicate

NetFlix CEO:

This is the key thing I got wrong...In hindsight, I slid into arrogance based upon past success. We have done very well for a long time by steadily improving our service, without doing much CEO communication. Inside Netflix I say, 'Actions speak louder than words,' and we should just keep improving our service. But now I see that given the huge changes we have been recently making, I should have personally given a full justification to our members of why we are separating DVD and streaming, and charging for both.

The author's commentary:

When introducing the company's 60% rate increase back in July--the announcement which sparked this fiasco--Netflix customers' reactions were universally negative. What many found disheartening more than subscription changes themselves was the way Netflix communicated about them: automating the price increase, then framing it as a "terrific value" that offers consumers more "choice."

That about sums it up.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2012, 12:19:14 AM »
While I think raising price twice in rapid succession is a lousy PR move for NGC, I would buy their stock now if they are a public company.  They are a more viable company now.  NGC can do worse, they can do what Netflix, Rush Limbaugh, and Plan-Parenthood-fiasco did:  Change its mind and apologize.

Don't ever do that.  Make a decision based on sound business reason, stick to your gun, and never apologize.  Raising price is never popular and some customers will walk away, but that's no reason to commit financial suicide.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2012, 12:33:03 AM »
It's not the apology and mind-changing that is disasterous, it's screwing that up too that is disasterous:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/09/why-rush-limbaugh-s-apology-for-sandra-fluke-slut-remarks-bombed.html

If there is a mass exodus of NGC's financial support, they will have no choice but to backtrack, regardless of how it turns out. NGC is a lot less arrogant than Rush Limbaugh though, so I think they'll handle it well, if that's what happens.

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2012, 03:29:15 AM »
Its official--Im not going to be sending in coins to NCS/NGC anytime soon, "Hello PCGS".

Offline fractalfate

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »
PCGS is publicly traded: ticker CLCT at $16.95 a share with 7.6% annual dividend as of this minute. As a disclaimer, I have owned this stock in my portfolio for two years now.

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »
7.6% is not bad BUT one needs 9-11% just to break even with non-governmental inflation figures such as John Williams from Shadow Stats.  However, let this be known that this JW told many people the US will experience hyperinflation.  To date there has been no hyperinflation.   

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2012, 04:00:18 PM »
I think a lot of people see hyperinflation as inevitable for a fiat currency. Actually, it's just one of the many possible final stages of death for a fiat currency. In modern times, currencies are often euthanized before the painful hyperinflation death, usually by a planned or unplanned (surprise!) devaluation. The planned devaluations usually force people to trade in their devalued currency for a new currency at an unfavorable exchange rate.
But, that way the government gets to keep claiming that they're honest...

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2012, 08:35:32 PM »
I just submitted 2 gold panda sets to NCS / NGC.  The price I will have to pay makes me feel violated.  Using $1700 as the gold spot price to put a value on the forms I came up with these numbers.

To conserve and grade the 1/4, 1/2, 1 oz:
   $150.00  - Conservation
   $16.50 x 3 - Grading
   $12.00 x 3 - Variety Designation
 TOTAL:  235.50 or 7.8% of gold value

To conserve and grade the 1/20 & 1/10:

   $26.50 x 2 - Conservation / Grading
   $12.00 x 2 - Variety Designation

TOTAL:  $77.00 or 30% of gold value

Total cost of $312.50 or 9.6%.  Plus if you add $36 for my cost of shipping USPS Express (thats without insurance!) plus return shipping of approximately $45.00 from NGC via USPS registered it brings the total cost to conserve and grade a set to $393.50 or a whopping $12%!!

This same set under the old pricing of last year would have cost $22.50 per coin for conservation and grading and no variety fee for a total of $112.50 + $81 shipping or 193.50 or 6%.

It costs 100% more now to grade a set.  I don't believe this is very sustainable for sets that tie closely to bullion.

If you take out the shipping cost from the new pricing and the old pricing you get $312.50 or 9.6% vs 112.50 or 3.5%.  The actual cost of NGC's services have increased nearly $275%!!

All I can say is SWEET! It looks like we better learn to remove copper spots off our own coins.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »
I'm skeptical that this new pricing will last, in exactly the same form it exists in today. It depends on whether there's a backlash or not, I guess. It's suddenly very expensive to grade anything, even high-end coins that are not closely tied to bullion. From a collector point of view, maybe the extra cost doesn't matter. But, from an investor point of view, that just shut out a large fraction of the entire numismatic market.

10%+ annual profits are pretty good during stable inflation. During high inflation, 10% may not be good enough. With the grading services taking that much of the pie off the table, there are not many coins left that can appreciate in value enough to justify the investment in getting the coins graded.

Even dealers operate on fairly thin profit margins for large volume-grading of more common coins. I'd be surprised if there's any profit left at all for a dealer trying to utilize NCS/NGC. Everybody is going to have to learn to be their own conservators, or, maybe there will be a new conservation cottage industry pop up in local dealer shops that breaks up NCS's previously well-deserved monopoly on the markt?

low

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2012, 09:05:41 PM »
Perhaps its about the right time for large copper medal. They are cheap, beautiful and rare with usual mintage around 500 - 5000.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »
Just don't submit the large copper medal.  I believe NGC charges extra on an oversize holder.

low

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2012, 10:57:46 PM »
Just don't submit the large copper medal.  I believe NGC charges extra on an oversize holder.

Ouch!

Offline Batman

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2012, 06:29:48 AM »
I just submitted 2 gold panda sets to NCS / NGC.  The price I will have to pay makes me feel violated.  Using $1700 as the gold spot price to put a value on the forms I came up with these numbers.

To conserve and grade the 1/4, 1/2, 1 oz:
   $150.00  - Conservation
   $16.50 x 3 - Grading
   $12.00 x 3 - Variety Designation
 TOTAL:  235.50 or 7.8% of gold value

To conserve and grade the 1/20 & 1/10:

   $26.50 x 2 - Conservation / Grading
   $12.00 x 2 - Variety Designation

TOTAL:  $77.00 or 30% of gold value

Total cost of $312.50 or 9.6%.  Plus if you add $36 for my cost of shipping USPS Express (thats without insurance!) plus return shipping of approximately $45.00 from NGC via USPS registered it brings the total cost to conserve and grade a set to $393.50 or a whopping $12%!!

This same set under the old pricing of last year would have cost $22.50 per coin for conservation and grading and no variety fee for a total of $112.50 + $81 shipping or 193.50 or 6%.

It costs 100% more now to grade a set.  I don't believe this is very sustainable for sets that tie closely to bullion.

If you take out the shipping cost from the new pricing and the old pricing you get $312.50 or 9.6% vs 112.50 or 3.5%.  The actual cost of NGC's services have increased nearly $275%!!

All I can say is SWEET! It looks like we better learn to remove copper spots off our own coins.

Plus the NCS $8 handling fee per invoice!! 

Offline BChung

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2012, 09:38:20 AM »
talk about handling fees, I got to say I find it a 100% dishonest business practice.

I went to PCGS HK submitted my coins, around 30 something coins. I fill in 2 forms.. went there they told me to split it to 4 form because of different pricing/size, etc. then I just realize that I am now being charge USD 8 x 4 instead of just USD 8, according to their lame excuse "ITS FASTER". Well finally gave grading a try and the first taste feels bad already :cursing:. The worst part is the so called "handling fee" well guess what I am ask to take the coin out and put it in some plastic pouch, all they did was "writing a sticker label" oo yeah and wraping them in one big pile (Why split it in four forms then besides from trying to squeeze a few dollars off this fat Chinese kid????)

The service they provide is hardly cheap, can they have the decency to be at least HONEST?

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2012, 10:00:52 AM »
All I can say is SWEET! It looks like we better learn to remove copper spots off our own coins.

I would just send them to NGC without NCS.  Put savings to few silver or even a small gold coin.  And enjoy the gold with red spots in NGC.

Offline exchange

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2012, 10:20:17 AM »
And enjoy the gold with red spots in NGC.

I have a 1990 or 1991 (don't remember) 1 ounce gold panda sealed with five small copper spots. Nothing wrong with them. In fact reminds me of the Chinese flag with 5 yellow stars  :001_smile:

exchange

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2012, 12:22:30 PM »
I would just send them to NGC without NCS.  Put savings to few silver or even a small gold coin.  And enjoy the gold with red spots in NGC.

Yea I submitted 41 coins that day.  19 went to NCS due to being full sets with some copper spotting.  The other 22 coins went directly to NGC because they didn't have copper spots.  Those coins will still cost me about $500 or so.  Some were reasonable at only $16.50 per coin because they didn't have a variety designation.

What NGC really needs to do is raise up the cost of the standard NGC grading from 16.50 to 20 something and then lower the overall NCS fee or raise the $$ limit accepted that can be graded for the $26.50. Or create a whole different cost structure for Chinese coins if they are getting a high volume of them.

It would also be nice if they lowered or did away with the variety designation on modern coins.  I feel that most of the changes they made were to directly RAISE the cost of grading CHINESE modern coins, particularly gold coins.  Most US gold coins don't have as bad of copper spotting OR varieties.  So they don't need NCS or variety designation.  Those 2 changes have a disproportionately negative impact on CHINESE modern coins.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:30:58 PM by Obsidian »

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2012, 11:27:42 PM »
All these increases in costs might be worth it if you got an indication on the label that you spent the extra money to get the coin conserved, because then you could expect to earn the costs back with a higher sale price. We have been begging NCS/NGC to label conserved coins, and it's quite odd that they raised prices while still not meeting such an important market demand.

Offline Birdman

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2012, 07:49:14 PM »
Ugh...I haven't submitted to NCS/NGC for several months.  I had been accumulating some pieces to send in in one batch.  Reading this threads of updates, however, I might wait.  It is undeniable that the old NCS/NGC fees for gold pandas were too low.  It was an almost trivial cost for a big potential upside gain (MS69 or MS70).  But these new fees...It makes me very hesitant...I guess the only good thing to note is that the waiting time for grading has dramatically reduced after they raised their fees...Perhaps if enough of us refuse to send in coins, and we call them to clarify exactly why we are not sending in coins, we can give them clear feedback that might influence them to set an appropriate fee structure conserving modern Chinese coins.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2012, 04:39:31 AM »
I have wondered if maybe part of the problem is that they can't hire enough conservators to keep up with demand. If that is the case, then maybe from their point of view, they're not losing much of anything. NCS and NGC are pretty good at running their business, and for a while, I was baffled at how this could be a good long-term strategy for them. But, if they simply can't handle the demand despite their best efforts, then turning some up it away and increasing prices for the rest might make perfect sense.

I'm not sure that's exactly what's happening, but it's one speculative possibility that has crossed my mind.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2012, 03:38:00 PM »
I just spoke to NCS about submissions of gold MCCs. The interesting point was the actual turnaround time on NCS submissions.

This is a hypothetical scenario but largely based on today's discussion with NCS.

Lets say I submit 20 MCC gold coins, value $3000+, to NCS. Immediately NCS has the potential of billing their 5% fee on all/some coins. Its 100% up to them. Lets assume $3000 each coin in value and NCS wants to conserve each coin. Total evaluation revenue potential for NCS is 20x$3000x5%=$3,000 in addition to the per coin NCS fees.

But lets say there are 20 submissions in front of these two submissions. Lets say those are all sub $300 coins, so only the NCS per coin fees apply. Revenue potential is a fraction of the gold submission.

I was a bit surprised to find NCS puts the high revenue submissions in the queue right behind all the lower value submissions.

Anyway, my thought was 'thats not how the airlines do it'. Higher value ticketholders get priority at boarding.

Its certainly another potential disincentive.


Offline badon

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Re: NCS NGC fees going up!
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2012, 05:38:39 PM »
I have been hearing some rather extreme negative opinions about NCS fees lately. They're along the lines of very large fees of several thousand dollars, with no actual conservation work being done. We already knew they were doing that, since that's part of their official policy, but this is the first time I've heard of it happening for conservation fees in the thousands of dollars. There's a few other new unpleasant things I'm hearing too, but I have no way of knowing whether it's just griping or not.

Either way, I no longer use NCS myself, and if anyone asks me I tell them not to use NCS too. Little or no additional market value is being delivered for such huge costs. People don't trust NCS to actually conserve the coins anymore, so the "NCS conserved" market price premium is drying up. I believe the supposedly conserved coins that are developing white spots after grading were not actually conserved. Some of the rumors are getting pretty nasty, so I won't repeat them, but it's obvious people are upset about something.

If anything, marketing coins as "NCS conserved" is dragging the market down by scaring people away from it, and NCS still ignores the obvious solutions of certifying that conservation work has been done. I reported several weeks ago that there are fundamental business strategy problems over at NCS, and I don't know if they'll be able to recover from them by the time they figure out they have wrecked their market acceptance.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 05:47:23 PM by badon »