Author Topic: Post your newest older Chinese coin  (Read 69189 times)

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Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2012, 02:04:21 AM »
Dear all,

Using X-ray is just one of the options we have to deter if a coin is real or not. You might want to read into the subject first before commenting that one cannot deter the metal content of a coin, and the age of the metal/alloy.

good book:
PREPARATION OF ANCIENT COINS FOR ACCURATE X-RAY FLUORESCENCE ANALYSIS

    G. F. Carter†

The book is an oldy (2007) as the technique has improved a lot these days..but is explains the basics.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/RP%20152%20Metall%20Analysis%20Chinese%20coins-Prelims-Appendix.pdf

Its because we know what the metal composition is (should be), used in a certain period, X-ray will show you the exact compensation. Especially the link from the British museum might be of interest, as this is about Chinese coins and how they needed to be investigated, how they have been investigated etc..

The fact that you forget to mention your lack of knowledge of the Chinese history, and this procedure mentioned in this email tells me that a little bit of extra training is required.

I have nothing against the fact how you determine my coins, determine that they are fake, for strange unproven reasons, but the fact that it looks like that you know it all, is worrying.

Robert

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2012, 02:22:26 AM »
Well, "Its because we know what the metal composition is (should be), used in a certain period, X-ray will show you the exact compensation. " is exactly what I wrote in the post just above yours. It is a good trick to detect low to medium quality silver forgeries, but since top quality forgeries (designed to trick advanced collectors) can be made from molten genuine coins, this technique is not a silver bullet.

I think you are getting strong reactions to your post due to the aggressive tone you are using.

In your initial post, you berate posters on this board who say that such and such coins are fake, while alluding they lack the knowledge to make such claims.

I think none of the posters here claim to be experts. They express their opinion on the coins, and opinions may differ. We may all be wrong about a coin, for what it is worth. However, I don't think claiming a coin is fake, even if it turns out it is genuine, is as harmful as claiming a coin is real when it is not.

Coins are very illiquid assets, so if some beginner collector gets a coin, which various people of various expertise level find dubious, it means it will be hard to sell. So is it better to encourage the beginner to keep dubious coins that he will have a hard time getting rid of later, or tell him this is a dubious coin and encourage him to get coins which are not controversial, and thus more easily sold down the line?

Personnaly I don't claim to be an expert, however if I see a coin that I feel strongly is not right, I prefer to claim it is fake rather than "I don't know", because if I would not be willing to buy such a coin, it is likely that a sizeable number of collectors may have the same reaction. "I don't know" will only encourage the owner of the coin to think it is valuable, while claiming it is fake will encourage him to do some research. And if some more knowledgeable collector corrects me and proves the coin is real, then everybody learns.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2012, 02:35:04 AM »
collector1970,
When you find yourself in the bottom of a deep hole, the first thing is stop digging furthur.

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2012, 02:58:30 AM »
As the Dutch and the Germans say:
Luctor et emergo.

Some other nice reading material:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum/departments/conservation,_doc__science/research/scientific_techniques/energy_dispersive_x-ray_fluore.aspx

Science beats the opinion given by non-professionals. 

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 03:14:42 AM »
"Science beats the opinion given by non-professionals."

Sure, that is why I would like to be allowed to see the same Lao Kiang Nan you posted earlier in all its NGC holder glory, since you claim to have gotten it "X-rayed, tested and graded".

If this kind of dubious coin can be slabbed, I can pull out one similar coin out of my black cabinet and sell it, which would be swell indeed.

Offline GDG's

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2012, 04:40:42 PM »
Well this was in interesting thread. I have purchased some old imperial coins that were already graded and encapsulated. I try to learn more on older Chinese coins but find it hard. I learn many things here from dragondollar & SANDAC which I greatly appreciate. I now try to buy Invention and Discovery and Cultural CMC's. I'm done with the Panda's. Have 1982-2003 all in PCGS 69's, A Lunar set all 69's one 70. Many coins both Ag/Au 2000 Millennium years. There are so many beautiful CMC's. I spent decades collecting Saints which were America's most beautiful coin, IMO.

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2012, 05:11:56 AM »
@ DragonDollar especially,

and all

Respect respect respect @ you. As I see in this forum you only give your opinion and advise. The way it should be. I am glad though that a discussion started as the subject real or fake can make a difference between 0.50 cent or 5000 Dollars (even more sometimes). Careful advise should always be the case and I just wanted to point out that the advise given on a forum is not always binding. Some answers in some subjects seem fairly binding..

Some people made their opinion very clear stating false, fake etc..while a picture doesn't always shows clearly the coloring and the texture. Differences in background and lighting can make a hell of a difference too. Check out my next pictures using different ways of using light or background using prof. equipment. Using an unprofessional background like something like, having a wood-texture is already half the opinion given..If I used a slab even scratched out/blurred the lettering but the NGC hologram visible, it would have looked already a lot better. Psychology it is my friends, nothing more.. 

Indeed my comments could and should have been not that aggressive, sorry for that, glad though that a healthy discussion has been raised and everybody who is reading these comments thinks twice about their advise given in the past and for future reference/cases.

Robert 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2012, 12:31:57 PM »
collector1970,

Thank you for posting the links of reference book and article. I did learn valuable information about the dating of Chinese cash coins. Nevertheless, both the reference book and article confirm my previous statement that nondestructive XRF can not be used as a definite “quantitative method” to determine the metal content and date the manufacturing time when the coin surface is corroded, artificially toned, altered or plated. Unfortunately most counterfeit coins are corroded, artificially toned, altered or plated and a destructive procedure by cutting the coin to obtain fresh surface or using AAS (atomic absorption spectrometer)for cutted sample is required to determine the quantity of the metals.

Health discussions like these in this forum are beneficially to all members. Your contribution in this forum is appreicated.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2012, 09:57:17 AM »
Dear collector1970,

These all coins which you showed up here are genuine, but previous ones just don't look right. Only seeing them all in NGC holders can change my mind and prove that I was wrong. Otherwise I can't give them nothing than red flag. Sorry.

@ DragonDollar especially,

and all

Respect respect respect @ you. As I see in this forum you only give your opinion and advise. The way it should be. I am glad though that a discussion started as the subject real or fake can make a difference between 0.50 cent or 5000 Dollars (even more sometimes). Careful advise should always be the case and I just wanted to point out that the advise given on a forum is not always binding. Some answers in some subjects seem fairly binding..

Some people made their opinion very clear stating false, fake etc..while a picture doesn't always shows clearly the coloring and the texture. Differences in background and lighting can make a hell of a difference too. Check out my next pictures using different ways of using light or background using prof. equipment. Using an unprofessional background like something like, having a wood-texture is already half the opinion given..If I used a slab even scratched out/blurred the lettering but the NGC hologram visible, it would have looked already a lot better. Psychology it is my friends, nothing more..  

Indeed my comments could and should have been not that aggressive, sorry for that, glad though that a healthy discussion has been raised and everybody who is reading these comments thinks twice about their advise given in the past and for future reference/cases.

Robert  
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 07:46:32 PM »
I received this Annam 7 Tien with two dragons on it about a month or so ago.  I'm just now getting around to posting a photo.  It is in an oversized NGC holder.  If anyone is willing and able to translate the Chinese characters, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks!

Birdman

low

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 08:19:39 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 11:36:12 AM »
Very nice coin.

http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com/coins_for_sale/1841-7-vietnam-3t-ngc-au55-7062002_3823_d.htm

Same emperor, different denomination.

Well, somebody moved quickly on this listed 3 Tien that Low highlighted.  As of this morning, I see that it sold.  Did someone on this forum get it?  If so, and if you are willing to share, please PM me the price that they were asking (It just listed "Price On Request" on their website).  I wonder what the market price is for this piece.  It was a nice coin.  I moved too slowly :)

Year of the Dog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2012, 02:27:06 AM »
Grabbed a couple coins today just thought I'd share.

Year of the Dog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2012, 02:28:59 AM »
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Year of the Dog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2012, 02:32:27 AM »
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