Author Topic: Post your newest older Chinese coin  (Read 79942 times)

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Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 08:03:44 AM »
Actually if anyone has information about where it was made I would be very interested. I've shown it to local coin dealers, and posted the picture on coin007 but nobody knows anything about it aside of the catalogue number... I think the craftmanship that went into the design makes it quite remarkable, most fantasy dollars are quite crude.

Offline collector1970

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Kiangnan. 7 Mace 2 Candareens 1897
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »
Please see below a nice and crispy version of my Kiangnan Silver dollar.

Offline collector1970

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Kiangnan. 7 Mace 2 Candareens 1897 warlord issue
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 01:54:29 PM »
Please see below my Kiangnan Dollar which is a Warlord issue. Similar one for sale now on ebay. You can clearly see that it has been double struck.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 10:07:50 AM »
Dear collector1970,

You crispy version of Kiangnan dollar is silver-made fake. The tuning just doesn't look right. Please take a look on similar silver made fake which I found.

You claim that your second Kiangnan dollar is warlord issued.
As far as I know Warlord period in China started from 1916, after Yuan Shih Kai's death (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era_(China). This Kiangnan dollar is from 1897----19 years before warlord period started. I found similar die crack from "E" letter on obverse on some other fake coin. This coin which I found has similar problems as your "warlord version", even in the same places. You coin also has some loss on a rim close to "RO" letters. The coin which I found is not the same fake coin but I would give myself to cut head by saying this is your second silver-made fake and I wouldn't lose it. Anyway please check photo: "fake silver-made-B" and also my 2 genuine Kiangnan dollars. Your 2 Kiangnan dollars are unfortunately silver-made fakes.
KONDi
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Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 10:10:55 AM »
I think he got the "warlord version" from the pisces lunar seller on eBay. This guy often sells dubious coins, and I saw he sold one these fake 老江南 claiming it was warlord-made (actually I had even posted on my blog about the same version, with the crap inside the coiled tail and below the left rosette).

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 01:19:42 PM »
I was so hoping for such a response. I wonder how many people left this forum disappointed that there coin has been deemed a fake. I wonder how many people have thrown away valuable coins because of such answers. If you are professional dealers I can safely assume you have full access to coinarchives.com, you might even find my coins (at least one of them) there.

Even Chinese history has to be copied from Wiki. If you know everything so well I suggest that you first start learning Chinese History. As many many examples are known of Chinese coinage/dollars to have been made my warlords before 1916. The period of Chinese history from 1916 to 1928 is commonly called the "Warlord Period." Nearly every province was ruled by an independent warlord (Sichuan had seven!), and they fought one another to gain control over all of China. These warlords were there long before but now saw a chance to grab the power and rules as much provinces as possible.

Many Szechuan dollars(the 1908) roam around which are cast coins, not struck. Known examples can be found on the net. Thats where all your information comes from anyway, pictures from the net.

Coins, which are cast coins often have soft spots, bad rims, color differences etc.. Basic knowledge if you know about silver and copper alloys, and what happens to a coin when it is being cast. A cast coin does have spots and bubbles, even blurry or vague parts like my Hupeh dollar with the splash on it. This is typical for cast coins. I thought this forum was a nice addition and was hoping to deal with people who are not afraid to say: I don't know, better check with a professional coin dealer.

As one must know,similar to what happens these days, making false coins has been happening in China, and all over the world, for hundreds of years. The Chinese are still the best and 120 years ago almost even better. Coin forgery was at it height from the moment the dollar came into circulation.


Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. All are cast-coins made around the same time the original coins were minted. X-ray a great technique these days, which tells you immediately if your coin is a recent struck, a cast coin, contemporary fake as we call it these days similar to warlord issues, or a modern fake.


Straight away determination is made: coin is false, but please look at mine which are even worse quality, but for sale ofcourse. As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 03:33:59 PM »
And to put my money where my mouth is, the picture shows you a collection of coins where one is a cast coin, one is an original struck coin, one contemporary fake, one silver alloy (60% silver, 5% lead, 15% copper, 20% nickel) but still contemporary (made between 1920-1930). When X-rayed it shows the quality and pureness of the silver or content of the used alloy, this way we can give a reasonable educated guess when the silver or alloy was made.
 
Minute differences, some clearer then others. One could say easily now: Oh well these are fake, but it takes knowledge and a little help from the technique we use these days to find out whats really going on with and inside these coins..

Robert

Offline aragog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 05:18:23 PM »
Well, collector1970, your coin does not come from KONDI`s so it is still fake :001_cool:
Or we could read in a newspapers soon about a case of self-execution in Shanghai soon. But he seems to be russian, so don`t take his promises seriously  ;)

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 08:36:19 PM »
Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. 

As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert


Perhaps posting pictures of these coins in their NGC holders could help clarify things.  Seeing how NGC describes the coins on the slab's label might be useful.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 08:53:05 PM »
And to put my money where my mouth is, the picture shows you a collection of coins where one is a cast coin, one is an original struck coin, one contemporary fake, one silver alloy (60% silver, 5% lead, 15% copper, 20% nickel) but still contemporary (made between 1920-1930). When X-rayed it shows the quality and pureness of the silver or content of the used alloy, this way we can give a reasonable educated guess when the silver or alloy was made.
 
Minute differences, some clearer then others. One could say easily now: Oh well these are fake, but it takes knowledge and a little help from the technique we use these days to find out whats really going on with and inside these coins..

Robert

I do not believe that X-ray can be used as "quantitative method" to determine the purity of the alloy  or date the manufacturing time. I should know this since I had done reseach in material science with x-ray for many years.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 09:00:38 PM »
Yes, showing the grading information and description would settle the issues.  Somehow I don't think these coins were graded when photographed.  The wood-grain background and blue background are not typical of NGC slabbed coins.  X-ray (XRF) would show metal composition, but not the age of the materials.  Were there contractual prohibition for NGC employee to make this kind of statements?  Maybe NGC Germany is different.  That must be it...

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »
Here is a picture of the same kind of "warlord issued" 老江南...



As you can see, the same defects; which means it was made with the same cast dies. This coin was deemed a forgery by *every* Chinese coin dealer who saw it. Also, if this is indeed a warlord issue, how comes it is the most common type available on eBay, for usually a very affordable price?

I, too, would be interested in seeing the NGC Holder.

Contrary to what you say, I'm here to learn, but I won't accept anything as truth until I can get it reasonnably cross-referenced. There is many urban legends and dubious information (even in Kann, cf. the Puyi wedding thing) in the field, and I try to stick to facts as much as I can.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 11:06:57 PM »
Dear collector1970,

I am not here to discriminate your coins but help you to detect are they genuine or counterfeits. Those which you showed us here right now are not genuine coins or contemporary forgeries. These are just modern fakes. Sometimes truth tastes bitter but you have to face it and accept it.

If you still do not believe in my judgement then you should really send them all as dragondollar and Birdman said to NGC to grade them. I hope you can prove that I am wrong by showing us those all coins in NGC holders. I wish you good luck with those coins. Let us all know the result from NGC.

I also agree with poconopenn and SANDAC that X-ray would show metal composition but not the age of the materials.

I was so hoping for such a response. I wonder how many people left this forum disappointed that there coin has been deemed a fake. I wonder how many people have thrown away valuable coins because of such answers. If you are professional dealers I can safely assume you have full access to coinarchives.com, you might even find my coins (at least one of them) there.

Even Chinese history has to be copied from Wiki. If you know everything so well I suggest that you first start learning Chinese History. As many many examples are known of Chinese coinage/dollars to have been made my warlords before 1916. The period of Chinese history from 1916 to 1928 is commonly called the "Warlord Period." Nearly every province was ruled by an independent warlord (Sichuan had seven!), and they fought one another to gain control over all of China. These warlords were there long before but now saw a chance to grab the power and rules as much provinces as possible.

Many Szechuan dollars(the 1908) roam around which are cast coins, not struck. Known examples can be found on the net. Thats where all your information comes from anyway, pictures from the net.

Coins, which are cast coins often have soft spots, bad rims, color differences etc.. Basic knowledge if you know about silver and copper alloys, and what happens to a coin when it is being cast. A cast coin does have spots and bubbles, even blurry or vague parts like my Hupeh dollar with the splash on it. This is typical for cast coins. I thought this forum was a nice addition and was hoping to deal with people who are not afraid to say: I don't know, better check with a professional coin dealer.

As one must know,similar to what happens these days, making false coins has been happening in China, and all over the world, for hundreds of years. The Chinese are still the best and 120 years ago almost even better. Coin forgery was at it height from the moment the dollar came into circulation.


Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. All are cast-coins made around the same time the original coins were minted. X-ray a great technique these days, which tells you immediately if your coin is a recent struck, a cast coin, contemporary fake as we call it these days similar to warlord issues, or a modern fake.


Straight away determination is made: coin is false, but please look at mine which are even worse quality, but for sale ofcourse. As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert

KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 11:19:24 PM »
Dear aragog,

I am not Russian:)
I am not saying here that if a coin is not bought from me then it is fake.
All coins which I sell are problem free and if you would have a chance to own one of them you would find out about it

Well, collector1970, your coin does not come from KONDI`s so it is still fake :001_cool:
Or we could read in a newspapers soon about a case of self-execution in Shanghai soon. But he seems to be russian, so don`t take his promises seriously  ;)
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 11:23:08 PM »
I guess by saying X-ray allows one to evaluate the age of a coin, collector1970 was alluding to comparing the exact alloy composition with the composition of genuine coins of the same time. It can help for the lowest quality silver-made fake, but highest quality forgery are sometimes made by melting genuine but common, low grade dragon dollars. Such fake could not be detected by this method, as they would be made of the same alloy.