Author Topic: Post your newest older Chinese coin  (Read 83083 times)

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Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2014, 11:39:58 AM »
Someone an idea? Real or not?

Thank you

Hi Pandapaule,

Most of the people on this forum have more experience with modern Chinese coins.  There are several who are extremely good at spotting those fakes.  There are only a few people, however, that have more experience with the older coins.  That might be why you haven't gotten a response yet.

At first glance, your coin does not look like an obvious fake to me.  The counterfeits of the older coins, however, have gotten very good. I haven't had a chance to spend the time to research the latest versions of the fakes, so I don't feel confident making a determination of authenticity for such a raw coin by merely looking at a photo.  Perhaps if you also posted the weight, diameter, and thickness of the coin, someone might notice something that doesn't seem right and would have enough information to offer an opinion.

Birdman

Offline Pandapaule

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #136 on: January 20, 2014, 01:15:58 PM »
Hi Birdman

Thank you for your information.
Can you say something about the value in this condition?

Offline FJCP

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2014, 07:54:55 PM »
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=gallery;cat=3
The "unknown to me" picture

Hi there, I'm new to coins but I've been collecting medals and orders for many years.
This coin came in a lot with some medals but I havent a clue what it is.
Could somebody please give me an idea.

Thanks
JC

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2014, 11:56:28 AM »
Thanks for your sharing your thoughts Poconopenn

The NGC website is working again now, and the coin is listed http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3313779-015

A few quick thoughts...In comparing images of the coin from the Stack auction and the Heritage Auction again, my gut feeling is that they are the exact same coin (not just from the same dies).  There are just too many tiny black toning spots that are identical.  I agree, however, that the rims of the Stack Coin have hairlines that don't appear on the Heritage coin.  Perhaps this is damage that was done after the person removed the Heritage coin from its slab?  It is perhaps worth noting that another big Annam coin from the same auction also has hairlines on the rim.  http://stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=513306 .  I bet these two coins were from the same collector.  Perhaps he had the bad habit of lovingly polishing the coins in his collection?  Also, the surface of the coin I just bid on seems right.  I own or have owned several high grade NGC-slabbed big Annam coins, and the surfaces of all the coins have a certain appearance with a distinctive striations and bumps.

Here are a few that I've posted images for:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg40953#msg40953
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg30379#msg30379
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5005.msg28717#msg28717
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2883.msg20104#msg20104

The surface of the coin in question (with the exception of the hairlined rims) "feels" right to me.  I can't rule out that the a counterfeiter has a master duplication, but I'd want to do a bit more research before I conceded that.  Perhaps a few others can chime in?  I'd like to resolve this issue with some level of certainty.


Update... My (1848-83) ANNAM SCH-347C, KM-468 double dragon 7 Tien that was discussed in this thread has now been certified authentic by NGC.  What a relief to know that I didn't spend $2K on a counterfeit.   N8

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2014, 11:00:59 PM »
Hi Folks, I have a few older Chinese coins that I will be sending in for grading. Can any of you kind folks help me out determining which coins they are and the dates?


Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2014, 11:03:13 PM »
Second set of coins

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #141 on: June 02, 2014, 11:23:07 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

The pictures are not good enough to give a definite answer about their authenticity. IMO, the first two dragon dollars are not genuine. All Republic coins have a badly damaged surface, they may not be gradeable, if they are genuine.

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #142 on: June 02, 2014, 11:32:14 PM »
Well I already shipped them out to PCGS. I will let you know if they send them back as fakes. But I think they are genuine because they both are the correct weight and I know that the source where I got the coins from is legitimate.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2014, 03:56:10 AM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.

About other coins. Two fatman dollars 1914, one has test mark and is in G-F condition the most so it would get probably Genuine not gradeable from PCGS + Damaged or Chopmarked. The other fatman 1914 has test mark on reverse on chinese character "yuan" and this coin is harshly cleaned. It is like someone used some sharp brush. It is very bad for coin, because it will lower the value of the coin. NGC would probably not grade it at all, because it is cleaned harshly, PCGC...I don't know. You have to wait and see what those coins will arrive to you.
You fatman 1919 is genuine as well. It has on reverse the leaf part which I marked. This is nice variety. But it was cleaned also above the chinese character "yi" and below this character and the character "yuan".

The 2 coins which could probably get some marks from PCGS or NGC would be your Memento dollar 1927 with Sun Yat-sen. This coin would get from F-VF the most + the mark and junk boat dollar also with Sun Yat-sen 1934 probably only G-F the most + the mark.

All coins which you showed to us looks genuine in my humble opinion. I think it is not worth to send them to be graded, because their coindition is not so good. However if you want to make sure they are 100% genuine then it is ok.

I hope my late answer helped you somehow.

Best wishes from beautiful Shanghai^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #144 on: June 04, 2014, 12:58:12 PM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.



Very interesting. I reached the opposite conclusion also based on those chopmarks. They are too clean to be considered as 100 year old marks. Usually, the chopmark will have dark toning and accumulated dirty in the crevices and they are very tough to remove, even with an acid solvent. In addition, acid solvent makes silver surface darker not as bright as the coins in the pictures.     

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #145 on: June 04, 2014, 01:15:02 PM »
My dad used to clean some of the coins with toothpaste...That would be my explanation for the condition of some of the coins. This happened many years ago, when I was young and did not know much about coins.

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2014, 01:45:20 PM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.

About other coins. Two fatman dollars 1914, one has test mark and is in G-F condition the most so it would get probably Genuine not gradeable from PCGS + Damaged or Chopmarked. The other fatman 1914 has test mark on reverse on chinese character "yuan" and this coin is harshly cleaned. It is like someone used some sharp brush. It is very bad for coin, because it will lower the value of the coin. NGC would probably not grade it at all, because it is cleaned harshly, PCGC...I don't know. You have to wait and see what those coins will arrive to you.
You fatman 1919 is genuine as well. It has on reverse the leaf part which I marked. This is nice variety. But it was cleaned also above the chinese character "yi" and below this character and the character "yuan".

The 2 coins which could probably get some marks from PCGS or NGC would be your Memento dollar 1927 with Sun Yat-sen. This coin would get from F-VF the most + the mark and junk boat dollar also with Sun Yat-sen 1934 probably only G-F the most + the mark.

All coins which you showed to us looks genuine in my humble opinion. I think it is not worth to send them to be graded, because their coindition is not so good. However if you want to make sure they are 100% genuine then it is ok.

I hope my late answer helped you somehow.

Best wishes from beautiful Shanghai^_^

Thanks so much for your time and information Kondi. Another member sent me info earlier and I submitted the coins to PCGS based on his findings. I will post the grading results when I get the coins back.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #147 on: June 04, 2014, 10:46:21 PM »
Dear milo2016,

You are welcome. You should send clear photos of those 2 dragon dollars with chopmarks to the editor of Chopmark Collectors Club (CCC). If you wish I can send you his email. I am also the member of CCC. There are many chopmarked coins collectors who will be happy to help you examine those chopmarks on your coins.

...and never clean your coins with a toothpaste or lemon acid. I remember my frist silver coin. It was Kennedy Half silver dollar. Don't remember the date: 1964 or 1967. When I was 10, I cleaned this coin several times using the toothpaste and toothbrush.

I should still have this coin in my country in the coin album...In 2010 or 2011 I used for the first time and the last time lemon acid to clean my 3 YSK dollars. That wasn't really good idea. However we all learn on our mistakes:)

Take care and good luck with your coins!

Best wishes from Shanghai^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #148 on: June 05, 2014, 06:29:36 PM »
I actually never heard of "chopmarks" until I came to this forum. Would they be examining specific kinds of chopmarks? And do certain chopmarks increase the value? I wouldn't mind sending him some pics, please PM me his email. Since you live in Shanghai, here is a pic I took when I was there back in 2011.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #149 on: June 05, 2014, 11:46:05 PM »
There are many types of chopmarks. For Chinese collectors chopmarked coin is not so valuable. They think such of coin is damaged. However for foreigners chopmarked coins are more interesting and valuable. Behind chopmarks always hides some fascinating history. I will send you his email address soon...Very nice view on the Huangpu River, Oriental Pearl Tower and the Bund^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)