Author Topic: Post your newest older Chinese coin  (Read 73363 times)

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Offline Birdman

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Post your newest older Chinese coin
« on: February 02, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »
In the spirit of the popular thread "Post your newest modern Chinese coin" (read over 25,000 times), I thought I'd start one focused on the Imperial/Republic coins.  I hope to learn something from other people's posts, and I'm interested to see what other collectors are finding.  I'll lead off with a coin that arrived in the mail today.

1912 China S$1 L&M-45 Y-321 NGC AU50

low

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 10:51:12 PM »
Thanks Birdman. That is very nice coin. I hope one day I will get one too.

This one arrived few days ago. Photos from PCGS.

1920 10 cash ms64+bn Y-303

Offline aragog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 07:03:42 AM »
One of my recent

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 09:04:51 AM »
low, that's a nice, high-grade example. I haven't had a chance yet to branch out and learn about the Chinese copper coins.  There are so many varieties, but MS condition always seems scarce.

aragog.  Wow, you are going to have to educate me on your piece.  What is it?  When was it used?  And how do you tell if something like that is authentic?

Thanks for sharing.

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 05:29:31 AM »
Dear all,

Just one of my coins, which is a beauty I think. The first picture is a bit blurry, sorry for that.

Offline Shamota

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 07:45:48 AM »
Chinese coin or Medal?
To which year does this coin?



Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 07:12:03 AM »
Dear Shamota,

Show me your chinese coin or medal, cause again some Russian words showed up...
Thanks in advance!

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Offline collector1970

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CHINA-HUPEH 1895 Silver Dragon Dollar
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 12:50:58 PM »
CHINA-HUPEH 1895 Silver Dragon Dollar with "Pen Sheng" beside Dragon. Another beauty if I say so myself.

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 08:00:14 PM »
CHINA-HUPEH 1895 Silver Dragon Dollar with "Pen Sheng" beside Dragon. Another beauty if I say so myself.
Wow, I love dragon coins and so does this column. Keep posting them guys! I like to see more.
Happycoins
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Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 07:53:02 AM »
Dear collector1970,

Your CHINA-HUPEH 1895 Silver Dragon Dollar with "Pen Sheng" beside Dragon is a fake coin. I am sorry that I must tell you this. I will analyze the surface of on obverse of your coin.
First of all there are a lot of dark spots on the surface, this is not natural. I marked it on red color as also other problems with this coin.
Secondly, there is some abnormal splash on the right side close to word "Candareens" close to "S" letter.
Thirdly, all letters, especially "Candareens" word looks very crude. Not natural!
Finally, the teeth close to word "Province" are not integrated with a rim of this coin.
There are of course more traces that this is fake but it takes a lot of time to analyze it, so let's just focus on those only.
Now, your coin could be or silver-made fake with the same parameters and silver content as genuine coin or at least with the same parameters as genuine coin OR your coin is just white copper fake. I think it is just white copper fake. Please tell us diameter, thickness and weight so I will let you know which type of fake it is. Always be careful when you buy old chinese silver coins, if your coin would be genuine one it would be VERY VERY VERY RARE COIN! Remember always buy from trustful coin dealers. I would like to recomand myself. I have a lot of old chinese silver coins for sale on Buy, Sell and trade section. You are welcome to take a look and if you are interested you can contact with me.
...
Dear Happycoins,

I know you like dragon silver coins very much but let's appreciate genuine coins only.
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Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 03:24:38 PM »
Dear Kondi,

I do respect your opinion, but I do disagree. Everything noted about my coin can be said from many other so called real coins on this forum, and it always ends with a sales pitch. Many deemed 'real' coins do have similar ‘problems’ which you have mentioned yourself.

Let’s take a look at your comments:

"First of all there are a lot of dark spots on the surface, this is not natural. I marked it on red color as also other problems with this coin. "
Such splashes can and may occur if coins are kept in a moist place, outside or even in the ground.

Let’s see what comments have been given to all the real coins found in this subject and compare:
China 1909-11 Hupeh dragon dollar silver coin with an extra dot variety?Rare?

"Secondly, there is some abnormal splash on the right side close to word "Candareens" close to "S" letter."
Look at the similar splash on this photo named: hupeh dollar-B.jpg
similar splash different place, even the Kiangnan has a big splash both deemed as real.

‘Thirdly, all letters, especially "Candareens" word looks very crude. Not natural!’

Your ten cents Kiangnan coin isn’t any better perhaps worse. How crude is that lettering and especially the number 2,  The’ I’ in the word province is not even the same size as the other letters, bearing in mind the coin presses are from a 130 years ago, silver was softer. You should know. Look at this website and find number 561. That’s a real kiangnan: http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/auction-archive/auction-hkca46/HKCA46%20Part%202%20%28Chinese%20Coins%29.pdf , see the difference with your real coin and the one on auction. The one on auction is nice and with sharp lettering.

On my coin the word candareens is almost crispier/sharper then the one from this picture: negative spin variety.jpg

“Finally, the teeth close to word "Province" are not integrated with a rim of this coin.”

Similar issues to be found on your own coin: hupeh dollar-B.jpg The teeth are not integrated with the rim, as it also looks like these teeth do not touch the rim.

I went to a professional coin grader who just lives across the street, had it tested for silver: 0.900, had it tested for weight 26.4 grams (original weight 26.7 grams) . The weight and diameter are correct.
As I said in the introduction field, I have inherited this from my grandpa who has been collecting coins his whole life. He got them from all over the world as he was a sailor. Some of them he had for at least 80 years. I have many of these beauties in my possession not all graded yet but I’m getting there.

Greetings,
Robert

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 11:35:45 PM »
"Such splashes can and may occur if coins are kept in a moist place, outside or even in the ground."

Perhaps, but I have seen many fakes with similar dark spots, so I do not think your coin is genuine.

"Look at the similar splash on this photo named: hupeh dollar-B.jpg
similar splash different place, even the Kiangnan has a big splash both deemed as real."

This similar splash which you are talking on the photo "hupeh dollar-B" you can also find in the same place on chinese_item graded Hupeh dollar. My Kiangnan has big splash but it is genuine coin and doesn't have such of dark spots on the surface of the coin as your coin has. Also the color of my "Hupeh dollar-B" and Kiangnan coin is right. But look at your coin. The color doesn't look right on the surface of your coin.

"Your ten cents Kiangnan coin isn’t any better perhaps worse. How crude is that lettering and especially the number 2,  The’ I’ in the word province is not even the same size as the other letters, bearing in mind the coin presses are from a 130 years ago, silver was softer. You should know. Look at this website and find number 561.
see the difference with your real coin and the one on auction. The one on auction is nice and with sharp lettering."

My 10 cents Kiangnan coin maybe is not in a good condition but it is genuine. After all it is one of my coin and I know my coins very good. So please do not try here find problems with my coins.

"On my coin the word candareens is almost crispier/sharper then the one from this picture: negative spin variety.jpg"

The negative spin variety Hupeh dollar is genuine coin, so we shouldn't compare it to your silver-made fake coin.

"I went to a professional coin grader who just lives across the street, had it tested for silver: 0.900, had it tested for weight 26.4 grams (original weight 26.7 grams) . The weight and diameter are correct.
As I said in the introduction field, I have inherited this from my grandpa who has been collecting coins his whole life. He got them from all over the world as he was a sailor. Some of them he had for at least 80 years. I have many of these beauties in my possession not all graded yet but I’m getting there."

Even the coin has the same silver content "0.900" and all parameters are similar to the original weight of the coin, but the color of the surface betrays it. This is in your case. Passed down the coin from generation to another generation doesn't prove anymore that the coin is genuine one.

Dear Robert,

You might agree with my opinion about your coin or disagree. But the coin which you have in your possession in not genuine coin. My Hupeh dollar has splash and so do Kiangnan 10 cents but those are common coins. Your coin is extremely rare! For F condition you would have to spend 7500 USD for such of coin. It is so rare that I have seen it only in Shanghai Museum. Seldom you can find it in Auction Houses even. Have you seen similar splash on the other such of coin? Because I didn't. Have you seen recently such of coin for sale in auction house? I might be wrong about your coin, but I think you should send your coin to NGC to be graded. After all this is extremely rare coin and if it is genuine then you are very luck. Let us know what's the result if you will decide to grade it, but I give this coin red flag.
Maybe dragondollar can say something more about your coin.

Good luck!

KONDi
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Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 06:22:59 AM »
Sorry, I agree with Kondi, both your Beiyang 22 year and 本省 dollar are fake. The calligraphy on the 22 year is totally wrong, and the details on the 本省 are also wrong. Please see the following pictures...

Here is a real 本省 dollar:

http://stacksbowers.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=87800
Yours is a cast fake, as can be seen with the pimples around EENS in candareens, and the thinness of the lettering.

Here is a real Beiyang 22 year:
http://stacksbowers.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=239789

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 06:42:30 AM »


An interesting coin... Fantasy dollar with Yuan Shi Kai as emperor Hong Xian, very nice details. However I have no idea when and where it was made... Probably in the 1930s, like most other fantasy dollars. It was graded NGC AU58.

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 06:50:17 AM »


An interesting coin... Fantasy dollar with Yuan Shi Kai as emperor Hong Xian, very nice details. However I have no idea when and where it was made... Probably in the 1930s, like most other fantasy dollars. It was graded NGC AU58.

I've never seen that one before, Dragondollar.  Thanks for sharing.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 08:03:44 AM »
Actually if anyone has information about where it was made I would be very interested. I've shown it to local coin dealers, and posted the picture on coin007 but nobody knows anything about it aside of the catalogue number... I think the craftmanship that went into the design makes it quite remarkable, most fantasy dollars are quite crude.

Offline collector1970

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Kiangnan. 7 Mace 2 Candareens 1897
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »
Please see below a nice and crispy version of my Kiangnan Silver dollar.

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Kiangnan. 7 Mace 2 Candareens 1897 warlord issue
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 01:54:29 PM »
Please see below my Kiangnan Dollar which is a Warlord issue. Similar one for sale now on ebay. You can clearly see that it has been double struck.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 10:07:50 AM »
Dear collector1970,

You crispy version of Kiangnan dollar is silver-made fake. The tuning just doesn't look right. Please take a look on similar silver made fake which I found.

You claim that your second Kiangnan dollar is warlord issued.
As far as I know Warlord period in China started from 1916, after Yuan Shih Kai's death (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era_(China). This Kiangnan dollar is from 1897----19 years before warlord period started. I found similar die crack from "E" letter on obverse on some other fake coin. This coin which I found has similar problems as your "warlord version", even in the same places. You coin also has some loss on a rim close to "RO" letters. The coin which I found is not the same fake coin but I would give myself to cut head by saying this is your second silver-made fake and I wouldn't lose it. Anyway please check photo: "fake silver-made-B" and also my 2 genuine Kiangnan dollars. Your 2 Kiangnan dollars are unfortunately silver-made fakes.
KONDi
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Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 10:10:55 AM »
I think he got the "warlord version" from the pisces lunar seller on eBay. This guy often sells dubious coins, and I saw he sold one these fake 老江南 claiming it was warlord-made (actually I had even posted on my blog about the same version, with the crap inside the coiled tail and below the left rosette).

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 01:19:42 PM »
I was so hoping for such a response. I wonder how many people left this forum disappointed that there coin has been deemed a fake. I wonder how many people have thrown away valuable coins because of such answers. If you are professional dealers I can safely assume you have full access to coinarchives.com, you might even find my coins (at least one of them) there.

Even Chinese history has to be copied from Wiki. If you know everything so well I suggest that you first start learning Chinese History. As many many examples are known of Chinese coinage/dollars to have been made my warlords before 1916. The period of Chinese history from 1916 to 1928 is commonly called the "Warlord Period." Nearly every province was ruled by an independent warlord (Sichuan had seven!), and they fought one another to gain control over all of China. These warlords were there long before but now saw a chance to grab the power and rules as much provinces as possible.

Many Szechuan dollars(the 1908) roam around which are cast coins, not struck. Known examples can be found on the net. Thats where all your information comes from anyway, pictures from the net.

Coins, which are cast coins often have soft spots, bad rims, color differences etc.. Basic knowledge if you know about silver and copper alloys, and what happens to a coin when it is being cast. A cast coin does have spots and bubbles, even blurry or vague parts like my Hupeh dollar with the splash on it. This is typical for cast coins. I thought this forum was a nice addition and was hoping to deal with people who are not afraid to say: I don't know, better check with a professional coin dealer.

As one must know,similar to what happens these days, making false coins has been happening in China, and all over the world, for hundreds of years. The Chinese are still the best and 120 years ago almost even better. Coin forgery was at it height from the moment the dollar came into circulation.


Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. All are cast-coins made around the same time the original coins were minted. X-ray a great technique these days, which tells you immediately if your coin is a recent struck, a cast coin, contemporary fake as we call it these days similar to warlord issues, or a modern fake.


Straight away determination is made: coin is false, but please look at mine which are even worse quality, but for sale ofcourse. As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 03:33:59 PM »
And to put my money where my mouth is, the picture shows you a collection of coins where one is a cast coin, one is an original struck coin, one contemporary fake, one silver alloy (60% silver, 5% lead, 15% copper, 20% nickel) but still contemporary (made between 1920-1930). When X-rayed it shows the quality and pureness of the silver or content of the used alloy, this way we can give a reasonable educated guess when the silver or alloy was made.
 
Minute differences, some clearer then others. One could say easily now: Oh well these are fake, but it takes knowledge and a little help from the technique we use these days to find out whats really going on with and inside these coins..

Robert

Offline aragog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 05:18:23 PM »
Well, collector1970, your coin does not come from KONDI`s so it is still fake :001_cool:
Or we could read in a newspapers soon about a case of self-execution in Shanghai soon. But he seems to be russian, so don`t take his promises seriously  ;)

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 08:36:19 PM »
Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. 

As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert


Perhaps posting pictures of these coins in their NGC holders could help clarify things.  Seeing how NGC describes the coins on the slab's label might be useful.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 08:53:05 PM »
And to put my money where my mouth is, the picture shows you a collection of coins where one is a cast coin, one is an original struck coin, one contemporary fake, one silver alloy (60% silver, 5% lead, 15% copper, 20% nickel) but still contemporary (made between 1920-1930). When X-rayed it shows the quality and pureness of the silver or content of the used alloy, this way we can give a reasonable educated guess when the silver or alloy was made.
 
Minute differences, some clearer then others. One could say easily now: Oh well these are fake, but it takes knowledge and a little help from the technique we use these days to find out whats really going on with and inside these coins..

Robert

I do not believe that X-ray can be used as "quantitative method" to determine the purity of the alloy  or date the manufacturing time. I should know this since I had done reseach in material science with x-ray for many years.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 09:00:38 PM »
Yes, showing the grading information and description would settle the issues.  Somehow I don't think these coins were graded when photographed.  The wood-grain background and blue background are not typical of NGC slabbed coins.  X-ray (XRF) would show metal composition, but not the age of the materials.  Were there contractual prohibition for NGC employee to make this kind of statements?  Maybe NGC Germany is different.  That must be it...

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »
Here is a picture of the same kind of "warlord issued" 老江南...



As you can see, the same defects; which means it was made with the same cast dies. This coin was deemed a forgery by *every* Chinese coin dealer who saw it. Also, if this is indeed a warlord issue, how comes it is the most common type available on eBay, for usually a very affordable price?

I, too, would be interested in seeing the NGC Holder.

Contrary to what you say, I'm here to learn, but I won't accept anything as truth until I can get it reasonnably cross-referenced. There is many urban legends and dubious information (even in Kann, cf. the Puyi wedding thing) in the field, and I try to stick to facts as much as I can.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 11:06:57 PM »
Dear collector1970,

I am not here to discriminate your coins but help you to detect are they genuine or counterfeits. Those which you showed us here right now are not genuine coins or contemporary forgeries. These are just modern fakes. Sometimes truth tastes bitter but you have to face it and accept it.

If you still do not believe in my judgement then you should really send them all as dragondollar and Birdman said to NGC to grade them. I hope you can prove that I am wrong by showing us those all coins in NGC holders. I wish you good luck with those coins. Let us all know the result from NGC.

I also agree with poconopenn and SANDAC that X-ray would show metal composition but not the age of the materials.

I was so hoping for such a response. I wonder how many people left this forum disappointed that there coin has been deemed a fake. I wonder how many people have thrown away valuable coins because of such answers. If you are professional dealers I can safely assume you have full access to coinarchives.com, you might even find my coins (at least one of them) there.

Even Chinese history has to be copied from Wiki. If you know everything so well I suggest that you first start learning Chinese History. As many many examples are known of Chinese coinage/dollars to have been made my warlords before 1916. The period of Chinese history from 1916 to 1928 is commonly called the "Warlord Period." Nearly every province was ruled by an independent warlord (Sichuan had seven!), and they fought one another to gain control over all of China. These warlords were there long before but now saw a chance to grab the power and rules as much provinces as possible.

Many Szechuan dollars(the 1908) roam around which are cast coins, not struck. Known examples can be found on the net. Thats where all your information comes from anyway, pictures from the net.

Coins, which are cast coins often have soft spots, bad rims, color differences etc.. Basic knowledge if you know about silver and copper alloys, and what happens to a coin when it is being cast. A cast coin does have spots and bubbles, even blurry or vague parts like my Hupeh dollar with the splash on it. This is typical for cast coins. I thought this forum was a nice addition and was hoping to deal with people who are not afraid to say: I don't know, better check with a professional coin dealer.

As one must know,similar to what happens these days, making false coins has been happening in China, and all over the world, for hundreds of years. The Chinese are still the best and 120 years ago almost even better. Coin forgery was at it height from the moment the dollar came into circulation.


Just for your information, all my coins have been X-rayed, tested and graded. All are cast-coins made around the same time the original coins were minted. X-ray a great technique these days, which tells you immediately if your coin is a recent struck, a cast coin, contemporary fake as we call it these days similar to warlord issues, or a modern fake.


Straight away determination is made: coin is false, but please look at mine which are even worse quality, but for sale ofcourse. As an employee of the NGC coin-grading service in Germany I can surely say that I know what I'm talking about.

Robert

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Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 11:19:24 PM »
Dear aragog,

I am not Russian:)
I am not saying here that if a coin is not bought from me then it is fake.
All coins which I sell are problem free and if you would have a chance to own one of them you would find out about it

Well, collector1970, your coin does not come from KONDI`s so it is still fake :001_cool:
Or we could read in a newspapers soon about a case of self-execution in Shanghai soon. But he seems to be russian, so don`t take his promises seriously  ;)
KONDi
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Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 11:23:08 PM »
I guess by saying X-ray allows one to evaluate the age of a coin, collector1970 was alluding to comparing the exact alloy composition with the composition of genuine coins of the same time. It can help for the lowest quality silver-made fake, but highest quality forgery are sometimes made by melting genuine but common, low grade dragon dollars. Such fake could not be detected by this method, as they would be made of the same alloy.

Offline collector1970

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2012, 02:04:21 AM »
Dear all,

Using X-ray is just one of the options we have to deter if a coin is real or not. You might want to read into the subject first before commenting that one cannot deter the metal content of a coin, and the age of the metal/alloy.

good book:
PREPARATION OF ANCIENT COINS FOR ACCURATE X-RAY FLUORESCENCE ANALYSIS

    G. F. Carter†

The book is an oldy (2007) as the technique has improved a lot these days..but is explains the basics.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/RP%20152%20Metall%20Analysis%20Chinese%20coins-Prelims-Appendix.pdf

Its because we know what the metal composition is (should be), used in a certain period, X-ray will show you the exact compensation. Especially the link from the British museum might be of interest, as this is about Chinese coins and how they needed to be investigated, how they have been investigated etc..

The fact that you forget to mention your lack of knowledge of the Chinese history, and this procedure mentioned in this email tells me that a little bit of extra training is required.

I have nothing against the fact how you determine my coins, determine that they are fake, for strange unproven reasons, but the fact that it looks like that you know it all, is worrying.

Robert

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2012, 02:22:26 AM »
Well, "Its because we know what the metal composition is (should be), used in a certain period, X-ray will show you the exact compensation. " is exactly what I wrote in the post just above yours. It is a good trick to detect low to medium quality silver forgeries, but since top quality forgeries (designed to trick advanced collectors) can be made from molten genuine coins, this technique is not a silver bullet.

I think you are getting strong reactions to your post due to the aggressive tone you are using.

In your initial post, you berate posters on this board who say that such and such coins are fake, while alluding they lack the knowledge to make such claims.

I think none of the posters here claim to be experts. They express their opinion on the coins, and opinions may differ. We may all be wrong about a coin, for what it is worth. However, I don't think claiming a coin is fake, even if it turns out it is genuine, is as harmful as claiming a coin is real when it is not.

Coins are very illiquid assets, so if some beginner collector gets a coin, which various people of various expertise level find dubious, it means it will be hard to sell. So is it better to encourage the beginner to keep dubious coins that he will have a hard time getting rid of later, or tell him this is a dubious coin and encourage him to get coins which are not controversial, and thus more easily sold down the line?

Personnaly I don't claim to be an expert, however if I see a coin that I feel strongly is not right, I prefer to claim it is fake rather than "I don't know", because if I would not be willing to buy such a coin, it is likely that a sizeable number of collectors may have the same reaction. "I don't know" will only encourage the owner of the coin to think it is valuable, while claiming it is fake will encourage him to do some research. And if some more knowledgeable collector corrects me and proves the coin is real, then everybody learns.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2012, 02:35:04 AM »
collector1970,
When you find yourself in the bottom of a deep hole, the first thing is stop digging furthur.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2012, 02:58:30 AM »
As the Dutch and the Germans say:
Luctor et emergo.

Some other nice reading material:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum/departments/conservation,_doc__science/research/scientific_techniques/energy_dispersive_x-ray_fluore.aspx

Science beats the opinion given by non-professionals. 

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 03:14:42 AM »
"Science beats the opinion given by non-professionals."

Sure, that is why I would like to be allowed to see the same Lao Kiang Nan you posted earlier in all its NGC holder glory, since you claim to have gotten it "X-rayed, tested and graded".

If this kind of dubious coin can be slabbed, I can pull out one similar coin out of my black cabinet and sell it, which would be swell indeed.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2012, 04:40:42 PM »
Well this was in interesting thread. I have purchased some old imperial coins that were already graded and encapsulated. I try to learn more on older Chinese coins but find it hard. I learn many things here from dragondollar & SANDAC which I greatly appreciate. I now try to buy Invention and Discovery and Cultural CMC's. I'm done with the Panda's. Have 1982-2003 all in PCGS 69's, A Lunar set all 69's one 70. Many coins both Ag/Au 2000 Millennium years. There are so many beautiful CMC's. I spent decades collecting Saints which were America's most beautiful coin, IMO.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2012, 05:11:56 AM »
@ DragonDollar especially,

and all

Respect respect respect @ you. As I see in this forum you only give your opinion and advise. The way it should be. I am glad though that a discussion started as the subject real or fake can make a difference between 0.50 cent or 5000 Dollars (even more sometimes). Careful advise should always be the case and I just wanted to point out that the advise given on a forum is not always binding. Some answers in some subjects seem fairly binding..

Some people made their opinion very clear stating false, fake etc..while a picture doesn't always shows clearly the coloring and the texture. Differences in background and lighting can make a hell of a difference too. Check out my next pictures using different ways of using light or background using prof. equipment. Using an unprofessional background like something like, having a wood-texture is already half the opinion given..If I used a slab even scratched out/blurred the lettering but the NGC hologram visible, it would have looked already a lot better. Psychology it is my friends, nothing more.. 

Indeed my comments could and should have been not that aggressive, sorry for that, glad though that a healthy discussion has been raised and everybody who is reading these comments thinks twice about their advise given in the past and for future reference/cases.

Robert 

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2012, 12:31:57 PM »
collector1970,

Thank you for posting the links of reference book and article. I did learn valuable information about the dating of Chinese cash coins. Nevertheless, both the reference book and article confirm my previous statement that nondestructive XRF can not be used as a definite “quantitative method” to determine the metal content and date the manufacturing time when the coin surface is corroded, artificially toned, altered or plated. Unfortunately most counterfeit coins are corroded, artificially toned, altered or plated and a destructive procedure by cutting the coin to obtain fresh surface or using AAS (atomic absorption spectrometer)for cutted sample is required to determine the quantity of the metals.

Health discussions like these in this forum are beneficially to all members. Your contribution in this forum is appreicated.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2012, 09:57:17 AM »
Dear collector1970,

These all coins which you showed up here are genuine, but previous ones just don't look right. Only seeing them all in NGC holders can change my mind and prove that I was wrong. Otherwise I can't give them nothing than red flag. Sorry.

@ DragonDollar especially,

and all

Respect respect respect @ you. As I see in this forum you only give your opinion and advise. The way it should be. I am glad though that a discussion started as the subject real or fake can make a difference between 0.50 cent or 5000 Dollars (even more sometimes). Careful advise should always be the case and I just wanted to point out that the advise given on a forum is not always binding. Some answers in some subjects seem fairly binding..

Some people made their opinion very clear stating false, fake etc..while a picture doesn't always shows clearly the coloring and the texture. Differences in background and lighting can make a hell of a difference too. Check out my next pictures using different ways of using light or background using prof. equipment. Using an unprofessional background like something like, having a wood-texture is already half the opinion given..If I used a slab even scratched out/blurred the lettering but the NGC hologram visible, it would have looked already a lot better. Psychology it is my friends, nothing more..  

Indeed my comments could and should have been not that aggressive, sorry for that, glad though that a healthy discussion has been raised and everybody who is reading these comments thinks twice about their advise given in the past and for future reference/cases.

Robert  
KONDi
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Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 07:46:32 PM »
I received this Annam 7 Tien with two dragons on it about a month or so ago.  I'm just now getting around to posting a photo.  It is in an oversized NGC holder.  If anyone is willing and able to translate the Chinese characters, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks!

Birdman

low

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 08:19:39 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 11:36:12 AM »
Very nice coin.

http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com/coins_for_sale/1841-7-vietnam-3t-ngc-au55-7062002_3823_d.htm

Same emperor, different denomination.

Well, somebody moved quickly on this listed 3 Tien that Low highlighted.  As of this morning, I see that it sold.  Did someone on this forum get it?  If so, and if you are willing to share, please PM me the price that they were asking (It just listed "Price On Request" on their website).  I wonder what the market price is for this piece.  It was a nice coin.  I moved too slowly :)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2012, 02:27:06 AM »
Grabbed a couple coins today just thought I'd share.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2012, 02:28:59 AM »
more

Year of the Dog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2012, 02:32:27 AM »
more

Year of the Dog

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2012, 02:33:43 AM »
more

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2012, 02:36:59 AM »
So I was told that the coin on the right was once a button and that it was common for the Chinese to make buttons out of there small silver coins.  Is this true.  I think if that is true that its just awesome I paid $1.00 for that coin and it might have more real history than any other coin in my collection.  Maybe Kondi or Dragondollar could confirm this.  It looks like Silver solder for sure. 

ANY THOUGHTS?

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 11:15:53 PM »
Dear Year of the Dog,

I have seen such of buttons or jewelry made with small coins. Chinese made jewerly with those small coins and also buttons and some coin shops or jewerly shops even made special buttons. I have some for sale.
Those photos are for reference.
Chinese also made a holes in silver coins and made it as a medalion and wear it, like my 50 cents Yunnan 1917 with hole. I used it now as a key decoration so it reminds me about my coin collection all the time :001_rolleyes:
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2012, 11:18:55 PM »
This is my key decontation :001_tt2:
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2012, 11:21:55 PM »
Mayve those pictures will be better...
I really love this coin :thumbup:, even it has a hole and can't be graded by any grading company.
KONDi
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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2012, 11:28:21 PM »
I used to sell to Panda Halves very beautiful and interested YSK silver button, much more beautiful than those 2 which I have above for sale.
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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2012, 06:10:37 AM »
Haha, today I got lucky and found 2 fantasy coins I was looking for (XM195 & XM119) in the original set from the 1940s, with an old invoice from 1963 when the set was bought in a Shanghai antique store. It was bought for 15 yuan of the time! 15 old yuan would be worth about 200,000 current yuan.

Also, I got back my first batch of graded coin. Quite a fat stash!

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2012, 07:49:29 AM »
Haha, today I got lucky and found 2 fantasy coins I was looking for (XM195 & XM119) in the original set from the 1940s, with an old invoice from 1963 when the set was bought in a Shanghai antique store. It was bought for 15 yuan of the time! 15 old yuan would be worth about 200,000 current yuan.

Also, I got back my first batch of graded coin. Quite a fat stash!

Nice! congrats.  Thanks for posting...It is a pleasure to see those pieces.

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »
I received this Annam 7 Tien with two dragons on it about a month or so ago.  I'm just now getting around to posting a photo.  It is in an oversized NGC holder.  If anyone is willing and able to translate the Chinese characters, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks!

Birdman

Here's a recent acquisition from 19th century Annam.  For those of you who know Chinese, I always like to know the translation of all of the characters.  Thanks.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2012, 07:47:29 AM »
The characters on the reverse of your coin are : 嗣德通寶 (coin of the realm of emperor Tự Đức), then 兆民赖之, which is a part of a well known citation from the Shang Shu Jing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Documents), in the 呂刑 part: 一人有庆,兆民赖之,其宁惟永
The meaning of this sentence is that when the emperor is good, the people at large can share greater wealth and long lasting peace.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:58:54 AM by dragondollar »

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2012, 08:12:30 AM »
The characters on the reverse of your coin are : 嗣德通寶 (coin of the realm of emperor Tự Đức), then 兆民赖之, which is a part of a well known citation from the Shang Shu Jing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Documents), in the 呂刑 part: 一人有庆,兆民赖之,其宁惟永
The meaning of this sentence is that when the emperor is good, the people at large can share greater wealth and long lasting peace.


Thanks for the translation, Dragondollar.  Interesting.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »
My new 老江南 (ornamented edge)... It has an interesting die crack and still a lot of mint luster. It will probably grade XF-45 due to the rim bumps.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2012, 03:52:18 PM »
Nice, Dragondollar.  That is one I do not yet have.  What is approximate current market value of a coin of that type in that condition?

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2012, 07:22:03 PM »
I got it in France in October for ¥8,000 RMB (1000€). Market value should be around ¥50,000 RMB. Is that a candidate for "Wow of the day"? ;)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2012, 09:46:17 PM »
Congratulations for the catch. :001_tt1:

Last week, I got a nice set of YSK from an retired collector at about USD 100 each. One of them is very intersting piece. I think it is Shandong variety.

If it is true, I would be quite lucky. KONDi and Dragondolar, what do you think?


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 02:15:57 PM »
You got a good catch as well, this is a genuine Shandong Yuan Shi Kai dollar (山东大扣版), in very nice condition.
For comparison: http://cdn.shuoqian.net/bigimg/5f/5fd7a9bf6074312b84b30761b8cee948.jpg
I like the toning of your coin. Would you be OK if I used pictures of your coin for my blog? I think if you took higher resolution shots it would look gorgeous.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2012, 10:14:23 AM »
You got a good catch as well, this is a genuine Shandong Yuan Shi Kai dollar (山东大扣版), in very nice condition.
For comparison: http://cdn.shuoqian.net/bigimg/5f/5fd7a9bf6074312b84b30761b8cee948.jpg
I like the toning of your coin. Would you be OK if I used pictures of your coin for my blog? I think if you took higher resolution shots it would look gorgeous.
No problem. You can use my pictures for your blog. For the high resolution, I will take another picture and send to you by Monday. Any idea for the market price range for this coin?

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2012, 10:29:51 AM »
Last year a high grade Shandong YSK dollar sold for ¥28,750 RMB at the Beijing Chengxuan auction. It is more commonly seen in XF condition for about ¥8,000 - 10,000 RMB.
http://www.chengxuan.com/antiques/51131/

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »
Last year a high grade Shandong YSK dollar sold for ¥28,750 RMB at the Beijing Chengxuan auction. It is more commonly seen in XF condition for about ¥8,000 - 10,000 RMB.
http://www.chengxuan.com/antiques/51131/

Thanks for the info. Given there has been a dramatic slow down in the Republic coins market in this year, I guess that the market price for this coin would be about RMB 4,000 to 5,000, which I am quite happy for the acquisition.

Offline happycoins II

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2012, 10:08:35 PM »
This is a higher resolution as discussed.

Happycoins ;)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2012, 08:57:39 PM »
Hi Dragondollar,

Please take a look at my most recent purchases a 1908 Chihli Dollar and a 1908 Empire Dollar. What do you think of authenticity, grade and value? The Chihli weighs around 27 grams and the Empire one weighs around 26.6 grams. Thanks a million :)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 09:00:55 PM by r3globe »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2012, 03:22:35 AM »
Happycoins > Thanks a lot for the pictures! This is a beautiful specimen for this variety, especially the toning.

r3globe > Your Peiyang dollar is a very nice 卷3期4, I'd grade it XF-40 due to the rim damage and scratches, but the fact that it is sharply struck and the dragon scales are intact make it more valuable in China. This particular variety do not have a huge markup compared to the regular 1908 Chihli dollar, it should be worth about ¥3,000 RMB. The most expensive variety is the 罗马体 (Roman type), where the 4 has a curved crossbar terminated in a swash, followed closely by the more well known "crosslet 4" which also has the curved crossbar, but terminated in a serif.

For the 1908 dollar, I think higher resolution pictures would be better, even if at a glance it looks OK. It would likely grade VF details.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2012, 08:50:30 AM »
Here is one of my 罗马体 (Roman type): http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2775084-001

And a 卷3期4: http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2775084-002

You can see the number "4" is different.

Offline r3globe

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2012, 09:59:38 AM »
Dragondollar, It is always so kind of you to take the time to answer questions :) So, thanks a lot. I looked at your slabbed 卷3期4 and the 4 looks different than mine! Are there different 卷3期4 ? WHat am I missing?

As far as the 1908 Empire, I will try to provide higher resolution pics. But, if it is a VF details coin. What is your opinion of value? I could not find as much information about it. My final question, would you recommend slabbing them? THanks again my friend :)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2012, 11:07:07 AM »
Yes, the 卷3旗4 (which means "rounded 3, flagpole 4") variety has different specimen. The most rare and famous in that group is named "crosslet 4" in English (Yeoman 73.4). Yours is a more common version in that same group. I would advise you to get it graded, since it is an interesting coin, but it will most likely be labelled as Y-73.2 instead of Y-73.4.

As for the 1908 imperial dollar, I think in that condition it should only be worth about ¥2000 RMB. I'm not sure it is interesting to get it graded.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2012, 11:08:50 AM »
I just seen I mispelled 卷3旗4 in quite a few posts above... :ohmy:

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2012, 11:10:18 AM »
Hi Dragondollar,

Please take a look at my most recent purchases a 1908 Chihli Dollar and a 1908 Empire Dollar. What do you think of authenticity, grade and value? The Chihli weighs around 27 grams and the Empire one weighs around 26.6 grams. Thanks a million :)



For the 1908 dollar, I think higher resolution pictures would be better, even if at a glance it looks OK. It would likely grade VF details.

KONDi:

When I have TIME (lol) I intend to work up the varieties we currently recognize so we can compare.....

I don't want to start with 1914 though!  Too many - last count we recognize about 40 different ones.

I'll try to start with 1921.  Either way, it will be interesting....

Wow, 40 varieties for 1914 China silver dollar!  Now I'm curious.  I'm posting a photo of a 1908 Y-14 dollar that I bought about 3 years ago (this is the photo I originally saved from the merchant.  I could take another photo if this doesn't provide enough detail).  First, I wonder if there are there obvious varieties for this type, and if this is an unusual variety?  Second, since this one is slabbed (presumably authentic?!), it may be a useful comparison for the coin of the same type for which r3globe is trying to determine authenticity.

Offline r3globe

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2012, 11:33:21 AM »
Birdman, Wow, that is one beautiful specimen! Congratulations on such a beautiful coin :)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2012, 12:00:02 PM »
This is my 1914 that I posted just when I joined this forum a year and half ago.  We've enough pictures here to find a variety or two.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3329.msg14866#msg14866

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2012, 12:10:44 PM »
I have three Y73.2.  One of them is posted here, it doesn't look like 卷3旗4
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3349.msg14991#msg14991

The 2nd one is here, it also doesn't look like 卷3旗4
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3329.msg14864#msg14864

The last one is attached.  It does look like 卷3旗4

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »
 卷3:


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2012, 10:54:18 PM »
1907:  note the 3


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2012, 10:55:08 PM »
 旗4

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2012, 09:52:50 AM »
This is a higher resolution as discussed.

Happycoins ;)
Dear PCGS-ASIA,

 Is the picture in the link from the recent Chengxuan Auction below also a Shandong variety?

http://www.ichengxuan.com/images/2012a/3019.jpg

If so, if I send my YSK Shandong variety which previously posted as quoted to PCGS in Hong Kong for grading, would the variety be noted in the label?

« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 09:55:09 AM by happycoins II »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2012, 10:24:00 AM »
I gave my new Lao Jiangnan, a Hunan constitution dollar and my new 1908 Peiyang 罗马体 to a dealer friend to send them to PCGS today :001_smile: 期待结果!

Edit: I get an HTTP 500 error when trying to upload pictures?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 10:30:17 AM by dragondollar »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »


Dear PCGS-ASIA,

 Is the picture in the link from the recent Chengxuan Auction below also a Shandong variety?

http://www.ichengxuan.com/images/2012a/3019.jpg

If so, if I send my YSK Shandong variety which previously posted as quoted to PCGS in Hong Kong for grading, would the variety be noted in the label?



Looks like the Shandong Big Button to [ 山东大扣版 ]me - note how the button "floats".

And yes, if this is deemed to be that variety it WILL be noted on the label - no extra charge.


Here is an archival image:

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2012, 12:33:14 PM »
Big Button

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2012, 12:45:25 PM »
PCGS-ASIA,
These are fabulous close-up pictures you've posted!  Please tell me how you did it, specialized microscope camera with ring light?  I'm interested in varieties and sometimes it is necessary to close in with proper lighting.  My normal setup with a camera stand and Olympus SP-800UZ is just not up to the task. 

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2012, 01:25:24 PM »

These are archival pictures from our photo department.

I could go back and inspect the equipment, but it is basically your standard copy table,
with adjustable lights on either side, and a nice digital camera.

They will use reflectors to move light angle or fill and get a better photo.

I fudge around with them in Photoshop depending on my needs.
(so basically, I'm starting with a large size image and zooming in on a given detail
with photoshop)....

The images are HUGE, so when I scale them down, they still look nice.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 01:28:47 PM by PCGS-ASIA »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2012, 01:43:04 PM »
They sure do look nice.  I see there are a lot about photography I still need to learn.  That's the wonderful thing about digital photography, free film and instant feedback.  Your Y73.2 卷3 is an inspiration aspiration (this is bugging me, I can hear my old English teacher, Mrs Oliver, "tsk, tsk" beyond the grave).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 02:25:31 PM by SANDAC »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2012, 09:22:21 AM »

Looks like the Shandong Big Button to [ 山东大扣版 ]me - note how the button "floats".

And yes, if this is deemed to be that variety it WILL be noted on the label - no extra charge.

thanks for the information. I will send mine to PCGS in Hong Kong for grading as soon as practicable.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2012, 05:01:00 AM »
Hehe, I got a new coin while traveling in Szechuan.  N16




While at first glance the condition may seem a bit lacking, this is normal for this type, and I'm actually pretty happy it still has some luster. You can read more about Szechuan varieties here:
http://www.dragondollar.com/coins/chinese-coins-2/szechuan-dollar-3-musketeers/

I already gave my coin to a dealer friend to send it to PCGS, I hope the variety will be mentionned on the slab!

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2012, 04:50:36 PM »

1901 $ "Y-238 LM-345 NF DDO"

Thus your slab shall read.   :laugh:

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2012, 02:33:28 AM »
DDO stands for "Doubled Die Obverse", but I'd be grateful if you could tell me what means NF  :blush:

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2012, 09:56:40 AM »
Yes, sorry:  Narrow Face.

There is also WF dragon, Wide Face.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2012, 10:10:13 AM »
Ah, I see, thank you. Narrow face must be the type called 剑毛龙 in China.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2013, 06:57:17 AM »
I got another sample of this rare type, with an interesting die chip on the reverse. Beautiful PCGS XF-40  :001_smile:
http://www.dragondollar.com/coins/chinese-coins-2/rare-szechuen-dollar-silver-ink-blots/

There was a similar one on eBay recently which went for $800 USD, NGC VF-30, quite a bargain considering that I paid mine ¥20,000 RMB.
The NGC one is definitely not as nice as mine ( :laugh:)but still far from a 垃圾龙.

PCGS-ASIA, would it be against your company policy to post pictures of the AU-58 one? I am very curious to see how it looks like, since this type should probably never have full scales on the dragon body with such the die issues?

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2013, 09:36:22 PM »
 :thumbup1:

No cud on reverse here.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2013, 10:09:10 PM »
Thanks a lot! That's really interesting, this coin has the obverse of the 无头车, and is probably an early strike: both eyes are still visible and the doubling is still visible on the "Szec" part of "Szechuen". Full dentils as well.

Edit: actually the obverse is another die too; the left rosette, the clouds on the left of the pearl and the flames surrounding the pearl are significantly different.

The reverse was made with another die though: the 省 character "tail" is different, the rosettes are shaped differently (no dot inside them as well), and most of all the 庫 in 庫平 is intact...

Very impressive coin, its owner is a lucky man.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 10:18:00 PM by dragondollar »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2013, 12:40:58 AM »
A pleasure.  You do great service to the Chinese numismatic community.

 :thumbup:

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
Freshly graded :)

A Chihli 1908 卷3旗4 罗马体 (Roman type), identifiable by the swash of the 4 instead of a regular serif: http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/26759331/



The 老江南 I had posted before: http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/26759332/ (you guys were harsh, VF details when it still has a lot of luster  :tongue_smilie:)


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2013, 10:06:02 PM »
老江南:

 N24

Oh, and I think I saw these coins - I remember noting that it was a swash 4 (up only) and not a cross 4.

In my mind, they are different!

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2013, 12:54:13 AM »
The 罗马体 is indeed very different from the classic (and much more common) cross 4. It uses a modified 33th year die (same dragon design, big S in Hsu, bumpy E in Pei), instead of the 34th year. All other "34" varieties use the new 1908 dragon. There is a big price difference between the 罗马体 and other 34th year varieties in China. My VF35 could be sold for ¥40,000 RMB, while a regular cross 4 would go for half that.

Please compare the PCGS picture above with these 2 samples :)


Year 33, big S, bumpy E, shallow scales


Classic 1908 except the 34.

I should make a post about Beiyang 34 varieties some day, I really like them.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 12:56:24 AM by dragondollar »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2013, 12:56:52 AM »
^We call the last picture above "Fancy 3"

I agree completely.

I'm on point.  I'll do what I might.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2013, 01:40:29 AM »
Dear happycoins II,

I am sorry that I came back with my answer so late. I was busy with toying my old Shanghai tokens, which became my the center of my interest next to Republic of China coins.

You Shandong YSK variety 1914 is genuine and a matter of fact it is beautiful coin.

I don't understand the reson why PCGS denied to grade it by saying that it is "authenticity unverifiable".

I compared the picture of your Shandong YSK 1914 to the one which I found (picture below) and also to some other one and I couldn't find differences.

I think you should try to send it to NGC and if the result will be similar to PCGS result then try to sell this coin in a raw.

Good luck and happy collecting my friend!
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2013, 05:15:41 AM »
Chinese coin or Medal?
To which year does this coin?






This item is a modern souvenir medal

Obverse
楊貴妃 Highest-ranking imperial concubine Yang Guifei  (Tang Dynasty)
Reverse
中国古代四大美女 Four Great Beauties (i.e. four ancient Chinese women, renowned for their beauty)


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2013, 01:07:36 AM »
呵呵, after one year I finally found another Peiyang with dots...
http://www.dragondollar.com/coins/china-empire/1908-chihli-dollar-with-dots/

This variety is quite interesting. I have the theory that the 1911 central mint dot after dollar, Kiangnan 1904 dot before 7 and this variety were minted in 1911 from old dies as emergency currency, and the dots were added to identify the restruck coins (which may not have been of the same purity or consistent quality). On the aforementioned coin types, the dot is always around the English denomination, since the Peiyang dollar does not have an English denomination and already had dots around the legend, putting the dot in the center would be a plausible idea...

This variety is very rare though, I had a hard time finding this new specimen.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »


I just bought a nice PCGS AU55 新疆版 (Sinkiang YSK dollar).  N16

Edit: precise variety name should be 新疆大头小叶大耳版
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 11:30:21 AM by dragondollar »

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #103 on: April 14, 2013, 06:41:50 AM »
Just got a new Pearl Scales Dragon (珍珠龙):


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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2013, 08:30:31 AM »
My cute 胖3 (fat 3)  N16



I really start to like PCGS secure+, you guys take great pictures.

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2013, 08:36:40 AM »
Dragondollar,

You are amassing an enviable collection.  Thanks for sharing  N47

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2013, 08:44:10 AM »
I wish to post a primer on Peiyang 1908 die varieties sometime next month, I think besides the classic "cross 4" most other varieties are not well-known in the US. Some of you guys may have some interesting coins erroneously slabbed Y73.2...

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2013, 03:35:07 AM »
Another very rare Chihli 1908 (more rare than the 卷3旗4), the ugly 3 :

I sent it to PCGS. PCGS-ASIA, I hope you guys already know this variety and will label accordingly!

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2013, 12:39:44 AM »
As a preview for my overdue blog post about Kiangnan pearl scales dragon, here is a high grade specimen I recently bought  N4

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »
As a preview for my overdue blog post about Kiangnan pearl scales dragon, here is a high grade specimen I recently bought  N4

Again, nice!

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2013, 03:11:30 PM »
呵呵, after one year I finally found another Peiyang with dots...
http://www.dragondollar.com/coins/china-empire/1908-chihli-dollar-with-dots/

This variety is quite interesting. I have the theory that the 1911 central mint dot after dollar, Kiangnan 1904 dot before 7 and this variety were minted in 1911 from old dies as emergency currency, and the dots were added to identify the restruck coins (which may not have been of the same purity or consistent quality). On the aforementioned coin types, the dot is always around the English denomination, since the Peiyang dollar does not have an English denomination and already had dots around the legend, putting the dot in the center would be a plausible idea...

This variety is very rare though, I had a hard time finding this new specimen.

dragondollar,

I must miss this post before. The PCGS slab as shown in your picture is definitely a fake. Please examine the coin again.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2013, 11:31:00 PM »
Poconopenn,

While I don't know what the actual holder is, I believe it is not PCGS.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #112 on: July 08, 2013, 04:04:42 AM »
Don't worry, this is not a slabbed coin  :001_smile: The box is one of these PCCB boxes used in China, that are not sealed but looks similar to grading company holders. The coin inside is definitely authentic, but the toning is most likely artificial (or due to the cleaning agent used).

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2013, 08:57:03 AM »
I'll share an Annam piece I won at the recent Stacks Bowers Hong Kong Auction.  ANNAM. 7 Tien, ND (1848-83). Tu Duc. KM-468; Sch-347c.

As with some other Annam pieces I have posted, I am always curious as to what the Chinese characters mean.  If a forum member would be willing to translate, I'd be appreciative.  N38.




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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2013, 09:23:59 AM »
The characters are simply 嗣德通寶, basically "Coin of the Realm of emperor Tu Duc". Beautiful coin, did you buy it raw or slabbed? It looks XF45 or better.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2013, 09:38:10 AM »
I'll share an Annam piece I won at the recent Stacks Bowers Hong Kong Auction.  ANNAM. 7 Tien, ND (1848-83). Tu Duc. KM-468; Sch-347c.

As with some other Annam pieces I have posted, I am always curious as to what the Chinese characters mean.  If a forum member would be willing to translate, I'd be appreciative.  N38.



Check this out an give me an opinion please...I just looked at some online archive photos.  I see a version of this coin, an NGC AU55 sold on Sept. 8, 2011

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3015&lotNo=23520#68856885063

In looking at the detailed imaged of the coin, and the imperfections and toning spots, it looks like the exact same coin!  The one I just bid on is not slabbed, however.  There are two possible explanations for this similarity.  The good scenario is that the collector that bought it in 2011 didn't like slabs, so he cracked it out, and then he just now put the raw coin back up for auction.  The bad scenario is that the reason the coin looks the same is that it came from the same counterfeit die?  Since some of the similarities look like superficial black toning spots, I'm inclined to believe (hopeful?) that it is the same authentic coin (just cracked out and $4000 cheaper than 2 years ago).  But if someone thinks this is a fake, let me know ASAP, because I haven't yet gotten the auction invoice...

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2013, 09:39:25 AM »
The characters are simply 嗣德通寶, basically "Coin of the Realm of emperor Tu Duc". Beautiful coin, did you buy it raw or slabbed? It looks XF45 or better.

Thanks for the translation, Dragondollar.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2013, 10:52:43 AM »
Looks like the same coin to me... The pictures from Heritage are nicer though. It is not unlikely that someone broke the slab, seeing it is one of these silly oversized models.

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #118 on: August 24, 2013, 03:15:45 PM »
Check this out an give me an opinion please...I just looked at some online archive photos.  I see a version of this coin, an NGC AU55 sold on Sept. 8, 2011

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3015&lotNo=23520#68856885063

In looking at the detailed imaged of the coin, and the imperfections and toning spots, it looks like the exact same coin!  The one I just bid on is not slabbed, however.  There are two possible explanations for this similarity.  The good scenario is that the collector that bought it in 2011 didn't like slabs, so he cracked it out, and then he just now put the raw coin back up for auction.  The bad scenario is that the reason the coin looks the same is that it came from the same counterfeit die?  Since some of the similarities look like superficial black toning spots, I'm inclined to believe (hopeful?) that it is the same authentic coin (just cracked out and $4000 cheaper than 2 years ago).  But if someone thinks this is a fake, let me know ASAP, because I haven't yet gotten the auction invoice...

NGC website can not find this grade coin (3313779-015). This is defintely a red flag.

IMO, the coin from Stacks Bowers was produced from the same die as HA coin, but was polished on obverse to remove some lumpy marks on the rim. Based on the uncharacteristic wearness of the rim surface, in addition to the same scratch marks, IMO, both coins are fake.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #119 on: August 24, 2013, 04:09:42 PM »
NGC website can not find this grade coin (3313779-015). This is defintely a red flag.

IMO, the coin from Stacks Bowers was produced from the same die as HA coin, but was polished on obverse to remove some lumpy marks on the rim. Based on the uncharacteristic wearness of the rim surface, in addition to the same scratch marks, IMO, both coins are fake.

Another possibility?  The fake coin is the same one that was slabbed, it was found out to be a fake and removed from NGC database, then broken out, altered and an attempt made to sell it?

Otherwise, if this is a different coin, then counterfeiters have also mastered making fake large NGC slabs?  That would be very bad news.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2013, 05:36:59 PM »
I think there might be something wrong with the NGC site/database today. It is very slow and even NGC coins which I have had imaged, the response it " No coin was found matching that certification number. "

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2013, 07:39:35 PM »
NGC website can not find this grade coin (3313779-015). This is defintely a red flag.

IMO, the coin from Stacks Bowers was produced from the same die as HA coin, but was polished on obverse to remove some lumpy marks on the rim. Based on the uncharacteristic wearness of the rim surface, in addition to the same scratch marks, IMO, both coins are fake.

Thanks for your sharing your thoughts Poconopenn

I think there might be something wrong with the NGC site/database today. It is very slow and even NGC coins which I have had imaged, the response it " No coin was found matching that certification number. "

The NGC website is working again now, and the coin is listed http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3313779-015

A few quick thoughts...In comparing images of the coin from the Stack auction and the Heritage Auction again, my gut feeling is that they are the exact same coin (not just from the same dies).  There are just too many tiny black toning spots that are identical.  I agree, however, that the rims of the Stack Coin have hairlines that don't appear on the Heritage coin.  Perhaps this is damage that was done after the person removed the Heritage coin from its slab?  It is perhaps worth noting that another big Annam coin from the same auction also has hairlines on the rim.  http://stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=513306 .  I bet these two coins were from the same collector.  Perhaps he had the bad habit of lovingly polishing the coins in his collection?  Also, the surface of the coin I just bid on seems right.  I own or have owned several high grade NGC-slabbed big Annam coins, and the surfaces of all the coins have a certain appearance with a distinctive striations and bumps.

Here are a few that I've posted images for:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg40953#msg40953
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg30379#msg30379
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5005.msg28717#msg28717
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2883.msg20104#msg20104

The surface of the coin in question (with the exception of the hairlined rims) "feels" right to me.  I can't rule out that the a counterfeiter has a master duplication, but I'd want to do a bit more research before I conceded that.  Perhaps a few others can chime in?  I'd like to resolve this issue with some level of certainty.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2013, 12:09:47 AM »
I also have doubts about the edge, but can we be positive it is not due to the picture lighting? The HA picture seems to have been taken with a flash and is more "shiny", while the pictures Birdman posted are more dark. The toning is really identical, which is why I'd be enclined to think it is the same coin... The fact it isn't searchable on NGC is worrysome, though.

Edit: well, on preview, basically what Birdman said  N11

Offline damynke2

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2013, 12:58:19 PM »
Hello-

I am new here today and wanted to post this Yun-Nan Dollar I just received and get some feedback if everyone would be so kind.  I purchased a lot of Chinese Republic coins and assumed that this was a fake, but from the poor images didn't know.  Now that I have received it I am trying to find reasons to identify it as fake and am running out!  The coin is just under 40mm and weights in at 26.73 grams.  What does everyone think?  Date?

Offline AllSong

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2013, 03:55:31 PM »
I am new on the board aswell, so I´ll start posting the first Chinese Republic coin I got less than 1 year ago. Would also appreciate comments  :thumbup:


"Boards don´t hit back!"

Offline AllSong

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2013, 04:03:15 PM »
My first Imperial Chinese coin was this 10 cent, not the best condition though, but very cheap (so if it turns out to be fake, I wouldn´t cry too much).
"Boards don´t hit back!"

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #126 on: November 26, 2013, 11:23:53 AM »
Pearl Dragon, cloud under K (江南戊戌珍珠龙,K下云)

Offline basa

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2014, 06:35:58 AM »
Hello to you all. Im new here on this forum. I have this beautiful  solid silver, I think, coin from my mom s old chest which is belonged to my grandfather. it is definitely old piece, and no doubt authentic  i was hoppin to get true value on it. if you need pic of it i can upload, give me some idea what its worth on todays market. thanks basa It is 34th YEAR OF KUANG HSU <<<< PEI YANG

Offline basa

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #128 on: January 09, 2014, 06:40:31 AM »
i cant upload a photo please help!!!

Offline AllSong

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2014, 07:56:10 AM »
Use the "Additional Options" button below the post you are writting, then "Attach". I hope it helps  :001_smile:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=help;page=post#attachments
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Offline AllSong

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2014, 05:30:06 PM »
This post might help you aswell with uploading the pic...

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg46156#msg46156
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Offline basa

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2014, 11:05:44 PM »
THANKS ALLSONG  N34

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #132 on: January 11, 2014, 11:43:41 AM »
Hello

I hope you can help me.
Is this coin real or fake?
non-magnetic
Diameter 2.3 cm
Weight 5.39 grams





Thank you

Offline basa

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #133 on: January 12, 2014, 06:13:53 AM »
please experts, post your expert  advices, thanks

Offline Pandapaule

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2014, 10:03:09 AM »
Someone an idea? Real or not?

Thank you

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2014, 11:39:58 AM »
Someone an idea? Real or not?

Thank you

Hi Pandapaule,

Most of the people on this forum have more experience with modern Chinese coins.  There are several who are extremely good at spotting those fakes.  There are only a few people, however, that have more experience with the older coins.  That might be why you haven't gotten a response yet.

At first glance, your coin does not look like an obvious fake to me.  The counterfeits of the older coins, however, have gotten very good. I haven't had a chance to spend the time to research the latest versions of the fakes, so I don't feel confident making a determination of authenticity for such a raw coin by merely looking at a photo.  Perhaps if you also posted the weight, diameter, and thickness of the coin, someone might notice something that doesn't seem right and would have enough information to offer an opinion.

Birdman

Offline Pandapaule

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #136 on: January 20, 2014, 01:15:58 PM »
Hi Birdman

Thank you for your information.
Can you say something about the value in this condition?

Offline FJCP

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2014, 07:54:55 PM »
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=gallery;cat=3
The "unknown to me" picture

Hi there, I'm new to coins but I've been collecting medals and orders for many years.
This coin came in a lot with some medals but I havent a clue what it is.
Could somebody please give me an idea.

Thanks
JC

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2014, 11:56:28 AM »
Thanks for your sharing your thoughts Poconopenn

The NGC website is working again now, and the coin is listed http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3313779-015

A few quick thoughts...In comparing images of the coin from the Stack auction and the Heritage Auction again, my gut feeling is that they are the exact same coin (not just from the same dies).  There are just too many tiny black toning spots that are identical.  I agree, however, that the rims of the Stack Coin have hairlines that don't appear on the Heritage coin.  Perhaps this is damage that was done after the person removed the Heritage coin from its slab?  It is perhaps worth noting that another big Annam coin from the same auction also has hairlines on the rim.  http://stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=513306 .  I bet these two coins were from the same collector.  Perhaps he had the bad habit of lovingly polishing the coins in his collection?  Also, the surface of the coin I just bid on seems right.  I own or have owned several high grade NGC-slabbed big Annam coins, and the surfaces of all the coins have a certain appearance with a distinctive striations and bumps.

Here are a few that I've posted images for:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg40953#msg40953
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5024.msg30379#msg30379
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5005.msg28717#msg28717
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2883.msg20104#msg20104

The surface of the coin in question (with the exception of the hairlined rims) "feels" right to me.  I can't rule out that the a counterfeiter has a master duplication, but I'd want to do a bit more research before I conceded that.  Perhaps a few others can chime in?  I'd like to resolve this issue with some level of certainty.


Update... My (1848-83) ANNAM SCH-347C, KM-468 double dragon 7 Tien that was discussed in this thread has now been certified authentic by NGC.  What a relief to know that I didn't spend $2K on a counterfeit.   N8

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2014, 11:00:59 PM »
Hi Folks, I have a few older Chinese coins that I will be sending in for grading. Can any of you kind folks help me out determining which coins they are and the dates?


Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2014, 11:03:13 PM »
Second set of coins

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #141 on: June 02, 2014, 11:23:07 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

The pictures are not good enough to give a definite answer about their authenticity. IMO, the first two dragon dollars are not genuine. All Republic coins have a badly damaged surface, they may not be gradeable, if they are genuine.

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #142 on: June 02, 2014, 11:32:14 PM »
Well I already shipped them out to PCGS. I will let you know if they send them back as fakes. But I think they are genuine because they both are the correct weight and I know that the source where I got the coins from is legitimate.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2014, 03:56:10 AM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.

About other coins. Two fatman dollars 1914, one has test mark and is in G-F condition the most so it would get probably Genuine not gradeable from PCGS + Damaged or Chopmarked. The other fatman 1914 has test mark on reverse on chinese character "yuan" and this coin is harshly cleaned. It is like someone used some sharp brush. It is very bad for coin, because it will lower the value of the coin. NGC would probably not grade it at all, because it is cleaned harshly, PCGC...I don't know. You have to wait and see what those coins will arrive to you.
You fatman 1919 is genuine as well. It has on reverse the leaf part which I marked. This is nice variety. But it was cleaned also above the chinese character "yi" and below this character and the character "yuan".

The 2 coins which could probably get some marks from PCGS or NGC would be your Memento dollar 1927 with Sun Yat-sen. This coin would get from F-VF the most + the mark and junk boat dollar also with Sun Yat-sen 1934 probably only G-F the most + the mark.

All coins which you showed to us looks genuine in my humble opinion. I think it is not worth to send them to be graded, because their coindition is not so good. However if you want to make sure they are 100% genuine then it is ok.

I hope my late answer helped you somehow.

Best wishes from beautiful Shanghai^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #144 on: June 04, 2014, 12:58:12 PM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.



Very interesting. I reached the opposite conclusion also based on those chopmarks. They are too clean to be considered as 100 year old marks. Usually, the chopmark will have dark toning and accumulated dirty in the crevices and they are very tough to remove, even with an acid solvent. In addition, acid solvent makes silver surface darker not as bright as the coins in the pictures.     

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #145 on: June 04, 2014, 01:15:02 PM »
My dad used to clean some of the coins with toothpaste...That would be my explanation for the condition of some of the coins. This happened many years ago, when I was young and did not know much about coins.

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2014, 01:45:20 PM »
Dear milo2016,

Thank your for your PM. I found today a little bit time to answer your questions about your coins.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say your Hu-peh province dollar and Kiang Nan province dollar are not genuine. The Hu-peh province dollar has at least 4 visuable chopmarks on the reverse. These 4 chopmarks look quite real for me even the photos which you provided to us are not so clear enough. You Kiang nan province dollar has at least 5 test marks and 1 clear chopmark also on reverse. The color of those 2 dragon dollars is little light. The reason is that they were cleaned probably in lemon acid which cleaned all dirts and make these coins look so bright. If NGC would be grading them they would probably grade them as F to VF Details Cleaned, Chopmarked or even Damaged. They wouldn't get grade with some mark. If PCGS is going to grade them then I would say they might grade them as GENUINE NOT GRADEABLE, CHOPMARKED or DAMAGED. However I am not a grader so I can only estimate it for you a little bit.

About other coins. Two fatman dollars 1914, one has test mark and is in G-F condition the most so it would get probably Genuine not gradeable from PCGS + Damaged or Chopmarked. The other fatman 1914 has test mark on reverse on chinese character "yuan" and this coin is harshly cleaned. It is like someone used some sharp brush. It is very bad for coin, because it will lower the value of the coin. NGC would probably not grade it at all, because it is cleaned harshly, PCGC...I don't know. You have to wait and see what those coins will arrive to you.
You fatman 1919 is genuine as well. It has on reverse the leaf part which I marked. This is nice variety. But it was cleaned also above the chinese character "yi" and below this character and the character "yuan".

The 2 coins which could probably get some marks from PCGS or NGC would be your Memento dollar 1927 with Sun Yat-sen. This coin would get from F-VF the most + the mark and junk boat dollar also with Sun Yat-sen 1934 probably only G-F the most + the mark.

All coins which you showed to us looks genuine in my humble opinion. I think it is not worth to send them to be graded, because their coindition is not so good. However if you want to make sure they are 100% genuine then it is ok.

I hope my late answer helped you somehow.

Best wishes from beautiful Shanghai^_^

Thanks so much for your time and information Kondi. Another member sent me info earlier and I submitted the coins to PCGS based on his findings. I will post the grading results when I get the coins back.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #147 on: June 04, 2014, 10:46:21 PM »
Dear milo2016,

You are welcome. You should send clear photos of those 2 dragon dollars with chopmarks to the editor of Chopmark Collectors Club (CCC). If you wish I can send you his email. I am also the member of CCC. There are many chopmarked coins collectors who will be happy to help you examine those chopmarks on your coins.

...and never clean your coins with a toothpaste or lemon acid. I remember my frist silver coin. It was Kennedy Half silver dollar. Don't remember the date: 1964 or 1967. When I was 10, I cleaned this coin several times using the toothpaste and toothbrush.

I should still have this coin in my country in the coin album...In 2010 or 2011 I used for the first time and the last time lemon acid to clean my 3 YSK dollars. That wasn't really good idea. However we all learn on our mistakes:)

Take care and good luck with your coins!

Best wishes from Shanghai^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #148 on: June 05, 2014, 06:29:36 PM »
I actually never heard of "chopmarks" until I came to this forum. Would they be examining specific kinds of chopmarks? And do certain chopmarks increase the value? I wouldn't mind sending him some pics, please PM me his email. Since you live in Shanghai, here is a pic I took when I was there back in 2011.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #149 on: June 05, 2014, 11:46:05 PM »
There are many types of chopmarks. For Chinese collectors chopmarked coin is not so valuable. They think such of coin is damaged. However for foreigners chopmarked coins are more interesting and valuable. Behind chopmarks always hides some fascinating history. I will send you his email address soon...Very nice view on the Huangpu River, Oriental Pearl Tower and the Bund^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline milo2016

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2014, 11:48:55 AM »
Hey guys I finally got my coins back from PCGS. I will post the grading results below.


(1895-07)   $1   Y-127.1 K-40 LM-182   Hupeh   Genuine - XF Details (98 - Damage)
nd(1927)   $1   Y-318a LM-49 K-608   China, Rep.   XF45
(1919)   $1   Y-329.6 LM-76 年 NC   China, Rep.   Genuine - Fine Details (97 - Environmental Damage)
(1934)   $1   Y-345 LM-110 K-624   China, Rep.   XF40
(1914)   $1   Y-329 LM-63 Original 圎 NC   China, Rep.   Genuine - Fine Details (98 - Damage)
Y-329 LM-63 Original 圎 NC   China, Rep.   Genuine - XF Details (98 - Damage)
Y-145a.13 LM-258 K-101 with Dots   Kiangnan   Genuine - XF Details (98 - Damage)


Offline KONDi

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #151 on: September 10, 2014, 11:23:11 AM »
Dear milo2016,

I am glad that you got pretty nice results from PCGS. Congratulations! I believe I got a little bit wrong with judgement about grades for your coins but at least I wasn't wrong that they are all genuine. Good luck with collecting! and best wishes from Shanghai^_^
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline Butch

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2015, 05:28:03 PM »
No photos right now but may post later.  If I am recalling correctly, a 1905 Sinkiang 5 miscals coins. 

What a beautiful thread.

Offline coffeyce

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #153 on: January 14, 2016, 04:04:00 AM »
Here are 3 I just got back from PCGS

1903 Kirin 10 Cash(es) XF45
1901-03 Fukien 5 cash XF40
1901 Kiang-soo 5 Cash  (EIVE cash version) AU53

Offline Birdman

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #154 on: January 14, 2016, 08:05:39 AM »
Nice.  Thanks for sharing.

I have always thought that the various spelling error varieties (EIVE vs FIVE) were intriguing.

Offline EU-HUN-BP

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2016, 02:20:31 PM »
1914 YSK.

Offline pitcoinchaser

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2016, 02:06:05 PM »
collector1970‘s 湖北本省是假的 字后加。北洋22年 字体太肉 内齿也不对。I agree discussion is good, but don't waste so much time on it. If one person insist his coin is "genuine", he will not listen to you and try so many ways to argue. I experienced so many in Chinese forums like coinsky and 钱币纵横. I think just simply tell them the opinion, and let them decide whether or not accept. If they want to sell, they surely will send them to NGC/PCGS or large auction house like Stacks Bowers. I believe these coins can be easily judged by the people there. In my opinion, these coins are even not high quality reproduction.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #157 on: January 21, 2016, 03:33:05 PM »
Welcome, pitcoinchaser.     N31
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Little Finger

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #158 on: January 23, 2016, 07:02:50 AM »
When I read pitcoinchaser's opinions, this image comes to mind.

Offline gie461

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #159 on: March 01, 2016, 02:24:06 PM »
Hi all,

I just bought a Chong Ning Tong Bao 10 Cash (Hartill 16.401).
Diameters 34.5mm, weight 7.56gr.

Anybody know it's real value?

Thank you.

Regards,

Gie

Offline gie461

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #160 on: March 31, 2016, 05:32:48 AM »
Hi All,

Can you help me to identify this coins. It seems a bit weird.
Maybe a fake coin in my opinion.

Thank you.

Regards,

GIE

Offline lex1705

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2016, 02:12:52 AM »
 :001_smile:

Offline Patschero

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #162 on: December 18, 2016, 07:06:20 AM »
(1920) $1 Y-329.6 LM-77

Have a nice day  N66

Offline Anthony H

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2017, 05:28:25 AM »
I got a 1901 Kiangnan 20 Cent piece. Looks pretty authentic to me. Nice little coin!
Thanks!

Offline Russia

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2017, 03:24:12 PM »
nscriptions: 榮縣-Zong County, (The crossed flags shown on the obverse are both a Five-Color Flag (五色旗) which generally used by the revolutionary parties before the founding of the Republic of China in 1912, and was the national flag of the country before 1920). 欠伍-Lack of 5 (Wen), which means to be circulated as 5 Wen.


Zong County of Szechuan Province declared independence from the Qing Dynasty at the 25th day, 9th month, 3rd year of Hsuan Tung (1911), a military government initiated by the members of 同盟會 (The Allied Association) was then taking over the regime of the county. This county became the first local government advocating the revolution against the Manchu ruler which declared independence. The revolution occurred 15 days after the independence of Zong County, and the Qing government was eventually overthrown.


Immediately after the outbreak of the revolution, in 1912, the major two revolutionary forces in Szechuan, i.e., 大漢軍政府 (The Great Han's Military Government) and 蜀軍政府 (Szechun Military Government), were merged. The military government of Zong County which only had a troop of 5,000 soldiers supported the merger, the military county government and their armies were dismissed. This lead coin was issued before the dismissal, and for the time being, the only one known to exist.

Offline Steffkja

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Re: Post your newest older Chinese coin
« Reply #165 on: March 17, 2018, 07:01:12 PM »
Kiangnan 10 cash 1906 in lovely condition. I believe this is a mule type, but I'm uncertain about the correct catalogue reference. Any advice is appreciated.