Author Topic: Edge nicks and grading  (Read 5597 times)

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Offline Honus

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Edge nicks and grading
« on: December 29, 2011, 12:00:41 PM »
I did some homework before posting this thread, and I had an easier time finding articles and forums discussing the effect of RIM damage on grading, but sparsely little regarding edge nicks and grading.  As soon as my web hosting company's maintenance is over, I'll post a couple of photos of a coin I'm curious about.  It has a tiny edge nick, at the reeds (correct word?) of the coin.  It looks knife-slice clean, so it's not from a drop or impact, leading me to believe it happened during production.  My photos may not show it (when I get them posted) but it's obvious through a loupe.  It's very tiny, not at long as the distance covered by two edge reeds.  The coin is a 1oz gold.

Are the reeds and coin edge discounted by graders as being outside the normal "judging space" of a coin?

Thanks, and Happy New Year to all,

Eric

Eric Liquori
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Offline badon

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 02:34:06 PM »
The edge is less important from an eye appeal standpoint, but it is still considered for grading. However, I don't think graders look as closely at the edge as they do at the obverse and reverse. I'll wait for your photo so I can get an idea of what your mark looks like.

Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2011, 03:25:45 PM »
Finally, here's a full image, you can see it top center, just left of 12 o'clock.   I appreciate hearing feedback on this particular topic - I once bought a 2009 Silver Panda NGC MS70 that had a rim ding the size of Montana.  It was easily 1.5mm wide - you could see it from 2 feet away.  I didn't keep the coin, but that's the specific coin that's always had me wondering whether the edges (and in that coin's case, the actual rim) were just not that heavily critiqued by NGC.



Eric Liquori
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Dragons_Are_Silly

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2011, 05:11:35 PM »
 Just curious, What is the grade?

Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »
It graded MS69

Any opinions on this coin are welcome, of course, but I also mainly wanted to learn how much weight to place on such marks so I know when I should or shouldn't submit other coins with these types of blemishes going forward.   I don't want to shy away from an otherwise perfect coin if reed marks are the only issue.  I don't know enough to know whether this coin graded 69 because of the marks (and might have been a 70 otherwise) or it graded a 69 completely in spite of the marks (and the marks had no bearing).
Eric Liquori
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Dragons_Are_Silly

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 07:12:50 PM »
That's a beautiful coin ya got there...you have sharp eyes to see small flaws like that.

 You may want to PM or get the attention of a near PCGS  coin grader here... Coinslinger.  He'd  be able to explain to you how much edge flaws like that count.

Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 07:39:00 PM »
That's a beautiful coin ya got there...you have sharp eyes to see small flaws like that.

 

Thanks for saying Dragons, but I actually have lousy eyesight!  But I'm trying to learn how to judge condition, how to grade, what to look for, what to ignore.  The marks on this coin are miniscule to the naked eye, but I'm trying to learn how to judge coins through a loupe.  I figure it would be burdensome to just keep posting OMP coins here and ask people to tell me what they think, so I'm trying to gain some skills.  Sort of the "teach a man to fish rather than giving him a fish" kind of thing.  I have a small but budding collection of fractionals and 1oz golds and rather than just shotgunning the whole batch to NGC and crossing my fingers, I'd like to learn how to cherrypick.
Eric Liquori
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Dragons_Are_Silly

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 07:43:13 PM »
So true... Good skill to develop, for sure. Its a mystery how the grading services view some of these small nicks like these, I read Kona Jim saying he got 70s only on coins that were graded on Fridays, for instance.  Why?  Who knows.

Offline badon

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 03:38:59 PM »
If that rim ding is the only flaw on this coin, I would give it a 69. I see some streaking that might be hairline scratches on the coin, but that could just be on the holder. If it's on the coin, I would downgrade.

Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 07:01:08 PM »
Thanks for the input Badon.  Those hairlines are on the holder, not the coin.  The coin is a gem otherwise.

The more I study other graded coins, both that I own and from good high-res photos in eBay auctions, the more I figure out what to look for and how to be critical.  Interestingly, I just got the results back from a batch of other gold coins I submitted to NGC, and one of them graded 4 steps higher than I expected.  The mistake I was making was grading a particular coin in comparison to other completely different coins, rather than to other specimens of the same kind of coin.  If everyone doesn't mind, I'll keep posting these "what do you think" threads when I see something I don't understand, because it's obvious I have a lot to learn.

Thanks again everyone, have a good weekend,
Eric
Eric Liquori
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Offline badon

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 07:56:54 PM »
I think these discussions are a lot of fun, so keep them coming! By the way, make sure you get us guessing the grade before you tell us what it is, so we can hone our forum photo-grading skills :)

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2012, 02:28:25 AM »
I saw this compilation of ANA (American Numismatic Association) standards on a dealer's website. I'm not sure if NGC strictly abides by the ANA standards, but the link below is informative. Based on ANA standards, your coin should be considered a 69 grade.

http://www.el-cerrito-coin-exchange.com/gradingstandards.html


Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2012, 01:54:39 PM »
Thanks for that Mrslick, that's good stuff.  I'm archiving that link for future reference.  It's interesting that by those standards, a coin can have marks that are actually still visible to the naked eye and still be a 69.  It doesn't say anything about the non-distracting marks being so small as to only be visible under magnification. 
Eric Liquori
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Dragons_Are_Silly

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2012, 06:38:59 PM »
Graders are human, some days thst might be a 69,  68 another day.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 01:30:41 AM »
If there are no other visible flaws on the relief or field of the coin it would be an easy MS69.  

When coins are graded you visualize areas of red, orange, yellow, green & blue on the coin.  Red areas are typically the focal center of the coin or key areas of the coin where marks would be most distracting.  Examples with American coins would often be the face of the portrait on the obverse or the breast of the eagle on the reverse.  Orange areas are often sections just off center and often times the field of the coin if it is large.  Yellow can be hair of the portrait or the field in some series. Green areas are usually the letters close to the rim and the rim itself is almost always green or blue.

On the pandas I don't know exactly what areas would be red, orange, etc.  I would assume the panda face would be considered red, the body and central areas of the coin as orange, fields would be yellow, rim green or blue.

Usually flaws in the RED areas are considered many times worse than flaws in the blue or green areas.

This is just a basic guideline, the grading companies likely have more technical scoring for each area and I don't know the weights given to each area.  But the conlusion that can be drawn is that a flaw on the panda face for example is MUCH more likely to get you a MS68 than a flaw on the rim of the coin.  To make matters worse, the high relief areas of pandas are often times the face of the panda, making the most important area of the coin also the most common area for damage.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 01:38:57 AM by Obsidian »

Offline badon

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 01:38:56 AM »
That's an excellent way to describe it, Obsidian. Thanks for sharing that helpful info.

Offline Honus

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Re: Edge nicks and grading
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2012, 12:18:54 AM »
Wow obsidian, that's great info, more than I could have asked for.  Big thank you.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com