Author Topic: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals  (Read 6771 times)

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Offline KONDi

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Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« on: December 05, 2011, 09:20:31 AM »
Dear dragondollar,

I would like to ask you about my 5 miscals 1907-1910.

I was trying to find this variety in 2010 SCWC 1901-2000. But all what I found it could be Y#25.3 (AH1325, AH1326 and 1328) or Y#25.8, not sure. Also I am not sure how to count Muslim year, for example AH1325 which year is it? My coin has different left part of leaves on obverse and small dot below the rosette on reverse. I didn't find such of dot on other such of type of coins. I am wondering which variety is it? Are you familiar with Sinkiang Imperial coins?

Thanks in advance!
KONDi
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Offline dragondollar

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 10:31:02 AM »
Hi Kondi :)

1325 AH is 1907, you need to convert using the islamic calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijri_year)

I am familiar with the imperial Sinkiang coins, but this is actually the first time I see this type too. I think it is a AH 1326 (1908), because the 1907 coins have either a 大写 5 (伍), or simple 五 but written small. AH 1326 have a big 五 like yours, and the same wreath with the flower. What I find more interesting on your coin, much more than the dot, is that the arabic writing on the left is unusal. I cannot read arabic, but the 5 maces coins all have some stroke with 3 dots near the 钱 character, while yours look more like the 1 tael or 2 maces writing, with a big loop at the end. This is a stange coin...

Offline KONDi

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 11:06:01 AM »
Dragondollar:)

Thank you very much for your fast reply and sharing with me your knowledge about my coin. So it must be AH 1326 (1908). I guess I need to study islamic calendar :001_rolleyes:
Close to the 钱 character, you are saying there should be 3 dots not 1. It has 17,9g weight and 32,47mm in diameter. Is it little overweight? I can't find this variety anywhere. But I am 99% sure that this is genuine coin. Do you think this dot below the rosette is some kind of mint mark? I think that those imperial and republican sinkiang coins are very interesting and worth to study.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 11:17:31 AM »
Don't worry, this coin just need one glance to see it's genuine. It is just a very strange type. And for the arabic characters, not only the number of dots. 5 miscals should end with a line, with 3 dots, and here you have a loop, with one dot. Very different! I wish I could read arabic, since one can see the same loop on 2 miscals and one tael, maybe the arabic denomination is wrong. That would be a very interesting error!

The coin is not overweight, Sinkiang coins used the 湘平 tael which weighed 36.1 grams. One tael = 10 maces (miscals), so 5 miscals should weight 18.05 grams.

I don't think the dot is a mint mark, since it is written on the coin it was minted in Cashgar (喀什). I have also a Peiyang dollar with a strange big dot, I scoured the whole internet and found only one person with the same dollar... http://cdn.shuoqian.net/bigimg/4e/4e12b5ea3caf9bc8bde15d39fee10e8e.jpg

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 11:23:21 AM »
After comparing the arabic writing, I think it is written "2 maces" on yours. The text on right and left match the text on 2 maces coins. This is very interesting!

Offline KONDi

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 11:28:54 AM »
Indeed!:) Thank you dragondollar:) for examining my coin and also for your information about it. I am happy to have this coin in my collection. I must say that the edge has some doubling ornament on some part of edge. Unfortunately this picture doesn't show that part. If I will have good camera in my hand I will take a picture of doubling ornamented edge. I must start studing those Sinkiang coins. It is really very interesting!
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
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Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 11:51:12 AM »
Kondi, would you authorize me to write about your coin on http://www.dragon-dollar.info ? I think it is a very interesting type and more people may be interested to read about it.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 10:54:54 PM »
Dear dragondollar,
I will be honored!:) Of course, I authorize you to write about my Sinkiang coin:)
I will send you clean photo of this coin on your email.
Do you need also scan of this coin?
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
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Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 11:04:13 PM »
Hehe, thanks a lot :) If you can make better pictures, this is great!

Offline KONDi

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 09:28:44 AM »
Recently I found interesting book about Sinkiang gold and silver coins :drool:
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
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Online SANDAC

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
This is my only Sinkiang.  Don't know whether it is genuine or not.  Weight is 17.38g, diameter 32.08mm, non-magnetic.

Offline PCGS-ASIA

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 03:24:58 PM »

Let's start with Sandac's, it is easier:

1317 (1897) 5 Mace Y-19a Kann-1075 [also see L&M-710]

Official 5, "Ka-Shi"

Measurements are close enough to Kann to satisfy me.


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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
Recently I found interesting book about Sinkiang gold and silver coins :drool:

This is an old book from the L&M folks - I'd love to see a copy of this to compare it to the current L&M.
I imagine it is more comprehensive.

Recently, Stack's sold several old collection lots, of varying denominations, with the collector's notes, etc.
I wish I had them, it would be a good start at trying to rationalize Sinkiang.

Sinkiang is a problem child - the references have varied, omitted, and renumbered over the years (Krause)
so you have to pull all the books off the shelf and cross-reference.

Also, keep this in mind - lots of dies - the dates move around, they were arbitrarily punched.
Very importantly, we are talking about a pretty crude mint - so the varieties appear endless.

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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 03:51:37 PM »
Dear dragondollar,

I would like to ask you about my 5 miscals 1907-1910.

I was trying to find this variety in 2010 SCWC 1901-2000. But all what I found it could be Y#25.3 (AH1325, AH1326 and 1328) or Y#25.8, not sure. Also I am not sure how to count Muslim year, for example AH1325 which year is it? My coin has different left part of leaves on obverse and small dot below the rosette on reverse. I didn't find such of dot on other such of type of coins. I am wondering which variety is it? Are you familiar with Sinkiang Imperial coins?

Thanks in advance!

Due to reasons touched upon above, this is indeed a tricky one.  Here's the way I see this coin:

I would be okay calling this Y-25.8 - although Krause says "date at upper left" on this specimen it looks obliterated if it was ever there.

I wouldn't call it 25.3, cause we can see the lower right of the coin and there is no date there.

I'm not gonna study Turkish or Arabic any more than I have to - but these two Y-#s share one important characteristic:

In text or in photos, THE TURKISH LEGEND IS REVERSED/INVERTED!  L&M-750 is your closest match, but the turki legends are normal in that photo.

It is really similar to Kann-1116 (AH1325/1907) - it is not noted in the text, but the inverted turki matches. Kann notes it is dated, says not where, and you can't see a date on the plate.  However, Kann goes on to note:

"Of type 1116 the author has 10 varieties which are differing from each other mainly in the calligraphy of the Chinese and Turki texts".

A few pages later, discussing the AH1326/1908 versions, Kann-1128 notes a dateless coin - but the turki legends are normal.

HE ALSO SAYS:  "There is a series of 5-mace KASHGAR coins which appears without date.  The latter was either intentionally omitted, or else embossed so feebly that it is invisible to the eye.  The compiler's collection holds 14 such varieties (only one being recorded here) which are deviating to a small extent in respect to the Chinese script's style, and to a larger degree as regards the shape and position of stylized clouds surrounding the dragon".

Therefore, I could only call this K-1128var. (variety) or K-1116var.    N23




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Re: Question for dragondollar about Sinkiang 5 miscals
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 04:22:43 PM »
And finally, here is one from the archives that is identified as Y-28.3.  It matches your specimen quite nicely:

With the exception of a visible date, and the rotation of the "C" shape in the flower at top....etc.