Topic: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions

[bonke]

I am already in a deep hole with this silver matte Great Wall medal.  I certainly would not re-submit it to NGC or submit it to PCGS, hoping for a more favorable opinion.  I have a tendency to break non-authentic coins or medals in half and sell them for their silver content.   If Spinks does not want this medal back, I will destroy it.

Mark Bonke

[ChineseCoinQuest]

So sorry to hear about your misfortune, I’ve Bought my fair share of fake and questionable coins/medals. Terrible feeling... But before you cut it in half I will offer you double melt.  I think we might even live in the same town.

[ChineseCoinQuest]

Would like to have it for reference purposes. I’ve been searching for this one for some time. Considering the fact that you own 2 and still got duped really makes me re consider buying non ngc/pcgs. Unless it’s crazy cheap of course.

[r3globe]

it is a bad situation to be in and the best outcome is for spink to take it back. But, I dare to speculate it is authentic. I have bought and graded many many medals and the older ones have variations that mislead TPG. Best of luck with it.

[mmissinglink]

Hi Mark, here's how I see it...Spink is definitely within their legal purview to refuse to refund you even a penny because of their stated auction guidelines (and the fact that you are way outside the time frames they have in writing). They could and likely would argue that because you bid that this necessarily means you agreed (implicitly or not) to their terms.

I'm not at all saying that you shouldn't communicate with them to let them know what happened, it's just that, as you already suspect, they will likely not refund you.

Also, I don't know if Spink or any auction house accepts PCGS/ANACS/NGC's judgement as the definitive word on whether or not a coin/medal is in fact genuine. I don't even think these TPG's can guarantee that their evaluation is definitive proof....although I'd suspect that NGC's graders are highly qualified in determining the authenticity of that type of medal since they have graded several and they generally are very thorough in their evaluations.

A final thought......I know that some people don't like buying on eBay.....but if nothing else, what eBay has going for it that is unmatched by any auction house is it's Buyer protection. I've had more than one time where I purchased coins on eBay and after sending them in for grading, received a couple back about 2 months later that were genuine but were not in a condition that was described in the auction. And yet, I was able to get a refund for the full sale price and shipping costs. I was not able to recover grading costs but at least I got a full refund on purchase price.....long after the transactions ended.

Mark, you have taken this all in stride and I do appreciate very much that you've shared this experience with this community....it is a good lesson to be learned for all of us.

[mmissinglink]

Would like to have it for reference purposes. I’ve been searching for this one for some time. Considering the fact that you own 2 and still got duped really makes me re consider buying non ngc/pcgs. Unless it’s crazy cheap of course.

I think having a reference piece (that is suspected by NGC to be of questionable authenticity) is actually a good suggestion.


This latest account by Mark, in my view, adds even more interest to the Great Wall medal story; like is NGC wrong? Are there people making fakes of these highly sought after medals? My guess is likely yes.....there probably are people making fakes since genuine pieces fetch very significant premiums on the market when they sell.

I've even heard from a reputable source that there are fakes circulating of the bronze/copper versions....so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that there are fakes being made of the far more rare silver versions.

[mmissinglink]

I am already in a deep hole with this silver matte Great Wall medal.  I certainly would not re-submit it to NGC or submit it to PCGS, hoping for a more favorable opinion.  I have a tendency to break non-authentic coins or medals in half and sell them for their silver content.   If Spinks does not want this medal back, I will destroy it.

Mark Bonke

Hi Mark, just a moment ago, I got a response to an email I sent a fellow Chinese medal enthusiast regarding your situation.

He stated that he knows of several examples where a Chinese medal came back "questionable authenticity" then after re-submission they got a number grade. The re-submission, in each instance was accompanied with different approaches based on the different situation.

The point being....DO NOT destroy or sell those medals....there may be hope for an actual grade with a re-submission but you really should seek out the advice of someone like Clark Smith of www.sfpandas.com.

Good luck.

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

I would be willing to submit it for you to NGC or PCGS.  I think it will grade fine, but first, try to get a refund from spinks.

[bonke]

Arif

Thanks for the offer.

The medal is still in transit from Sarasota.  I should receive it in a week or so. 

I did send an email to Spink's office in Hong Kong about my purchase.  At this point, no one has responded.  The auctioneer and office staff are very friendly people and I will be surprised if they do not respond to my inquiry.  Still, I will also be very surprised if they refund $$$ at this point in time. 

Do you think it matters who submits an item to the grading houses?  As a collector, I always think they treat me and my submissions fairly.  Are some other people treated even better?

Mark Bonke 

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

If they want to retain you as a customer they will refund most of the money.  They much more to lose in PR than a small check made out to you.

I think NGC tracks if an identical coin has been submitted by the same submitter within the previous few months.  A year ago resubmissions led to higher grades today it leads to the same grade. 

I don't have a lot of data points this year as my submission volume is down 90% from prior years.  I am still disappointed that I missed the opportunity to short CLCT early in the year when it was clear that dealers were grading much less than a year earlier. 

[mmissinglink]

short CLCT .

Hi, what is CLCT ?

[r3globe]

Hi, what is CLCT ?

stock symbol for Collectors Universe which is the company that owns PCGS.

[poconopenn]

Warning.  I purchased Lot #2420 at the Spink's auction in Hong Kong in August of 2018.  This lot included four medals, with a GBCA graded Great Wall silver medal (type 1)(satin finish)(68 grade).  I sent this medal to NCS and NGC for minimal conservation, authentication, grading and encapsulation.  Today, I received the results.  QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.  Ouch!  My money is lost.  I made a mistake.  I looked at it carefully during the preview in Hong Kong and still made a mistake.  Hopefully, you will learn from my warning and not make a similar mistake.

Mark Bonke

I was suprised that Spink Auction listed GBCA graded coin in its auction. GBCA has been known to grade many highly questionable Imperial and Republic coins and has a very bad reputation inside China. IMO, Spink should refund you the cost to protect its reputation. For any reputable auction house, refund for a counterfeit coin should not have time limit. Have you ask NGC to return the GBCA holder? This may become critical for you to receive the refund.


It was known that matte version Great Wall medal had counterfeit. They shown up in market place in earlier 2010, in double sealed package without box.   

[mmissinglink]

I was suprised that Spink Auction listed GBCA graded coin in its auction. GBCA has been known to grade many highly questionable Imperial and Republic coins and has a very bad reputation inside China. IMO, Spink should refund you the cost to protect its reputation. For any reputable auction house, refund for a counterfeit coin should not have time limit. Have you ask NGC to return the GBCA holder? This may become critical for you to receive the refund.

It was known that matte version Great Wall medal had counterfeit. They shown up in market place in earlier 2010, in double sealed package without box.   

If it's true that GBCA is or has done that, is the reason because their authenticators/graders are 3rd rate sub par or is it because they don't care if the items that go in their slabs may not actually be genuine?

Between NGC and PCGS, does either company have a better track record of being able to better evaluate for authenticity Chinese coins and medals?

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

Grading companies aren't perfect, even NGC and PCGS make many mistakes, however, in almost all cases they stand by their mistake and refund you the market value of the coin. 

Back in 2009-2011 PCGS was slabbing many counterfeit 2000 1oz silver mirror coins and imperial coins, their graders didn't know what to look for and worse it was taking 2-3 months to get coins graded because they were so short staffed.  In 2011 they arbitrarily decided the maximum coverage for PCGS holder Chinese coins were limited to $1000, while their expensive secure plus service which was $45/coin the guaranty was unlimited.  That was the turning point when PCGS coins went from trading at 10% premium to NGC to years laters NGC trading at 10% premium to PCGS.  Today I believe PCGS is back to unlimited guarantee on all PCGS coins, but for 1-2 years it was dicey. 

NGC mistakes have been less harmful, confusing 1992 LD for SD or vice versa for 5-7 years.  I had 50+ slabs incorrectly labeled and it took years for them to fix.  Overall NGC is 9 out 10 in my book, while PCGS is 6 out 10.  I think most collectors and dealers agree that NGC provides a better product with lower price and quick turnaround.