Author Topic: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions  (Read 101572 times)

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Offline KonaJim

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Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« on: November 14, 2011, 08:54:52 PM »
I received two interesting messages from dealer/collectors.  I hope to be able to post pictures of both versions.

Hi:
 There were two designs for these medals. The first one was 3.3  ounces of silver like this one, but the design was not judged to be artistic enough by the mint. This medal is of the second design. I have the only surviving medal of the first design, and I have three of this design in silver. I also have several of the copper trial strikes of this design. Your medal is the only one I have ever seen for sale on the secondary market. The mintage of 68 is not correct, my sources at the mint indicate only about 24 silver medals ever left the mint, one of which was stolen from its original owner in 1991. Regards, Midway

Hi Jim
 Thanks for taking a look. There are two versions of the 1984 great wall medal, the version you have and the unlisted cheng catalogue version - I was told by Ngc the china mint does not regard the red book as absolute and has provided Ngc with other catalogues to reference these medals, hence  why more medlar are being graded. A little history regarding the version I have: several years ago a collector dealer offered the 2 pieces i know of, one went to majestic, which he displays at shows, and one to me. I just sent mine to grade the last month along with the great wall bronze version. There was also a shanghai auction in September which there were both
 versions in silver raw.  The hammer was $14k on yours and $17k on the version I have, I was told there were less than 50 produced so maybe that is the reason for a little higher value. I don't mind if you post the medals, I Have met some forum members at various shows I set up at and enjoy reading the posts there.
Thx
Jonah

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 09:31:21 PM »
...I also have several of the copper trial strikes of this design...

...the great wall bronze version...
Got pictures of the copper trial and bronze versions?

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 09:45:01 PM »
The only picture I have right now is of the silver coin I have listed on Ebay.

Offline comeaux

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 10:32:08 PM »
Must be totally awesome to own such a phenomenal coin that nobody else has ... tremendous numismatic piece.

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 12:45:13 AM »
I have spent the last several years looking for one, but by the time someone decides to sell, it was in the 5 figure range. No surprise there though, I sit on stuff too if I think it's undervalued :)

By the way, the Great Wall medal is a Chinese scenery issue, as are the pagodas (interesting mintage info here):

http://modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/MEDALS.html

The pagodas are still obtainable, last I heard.

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 11:46:54 PM »
Must be totally awesome to own such a phenomenal coin that nobody else has ... tremendous numismatic piece.

I do know of another owner of one of these.
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Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 01:30:03 AM »
I think in this context "nobody" means "somebody who is not me" :)

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 06:42:41 PM »
Version 1

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 06:43:52 PM »
Version 2

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 06:57:52 PM »
So the other side of both medals are the same?  Pictures?

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 07:27:33 PM »
Yes, the other side appear to be the same.

Offline r3globe

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 09:10:20 PM »
I have spent the last several years looking for one, but by the time someone decides to sell, it was in the 5 figure range. No surprise there though, I sit on stuff too if I think it's undervalued :)

By the way, the Great Wall medal is a Chinese scenery issue, as are the pagodas (interesting mintage info here):

http://modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/MEDALS.html

The pagodas are still obtainable, last I heard.

Anybody knows the mintage of the 1995 UN Women’s Conference 2-medal set? Are they popular?

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 09:15:51 PM »
Don't know, but they share a similar design with the very popular 1985 UN Womens coin.  Also, the fact they were minted in 1995, a great year, makes me think they could be more scarce than believed, and a sleeper.

Offline comeaux

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 10:30:18 PM »
I think in this context "nobody" means "somebody who is not me" :)
Yes badon the “nobody” is me and about 99.99 % of us !  :laugh:
Look up “total epicness” in the dictionary and it says “see the 1984 Great Wall Coin” !!! 


Anybody knows the mintage of the 1995 UN Women’s Conference 2-medal set? Are they popular?
I don’t know what the name of the book is because it’s all in Chinese writing but the 458 page Chinese coin book says 20,000 but maybe it is much less.   

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 10:57:37 PM »
 Based on how rarely they have come up for sale ( not often), I'm guessing less, or maybe they were lost to some fate, since 1995 is a notorious year for that.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 10:33:48 PM »
Yes, the other side appear to be the same.

KonaJim,

I believe Version 2 has word "HEROS".  Can you verify if Version 1 has "HEROS" or "HEROES"?

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 05:13:58 PM »
From the Hong Kong Auction. 

CHINA 1984 The Great Wall of China Large Silver Medal Proof, error type(lack of E in HEROES), the first medal in Great Wall Series, 60mm, 103g, made by Shanghai Mint. It is the fist silver medal of large size in China, also the first error medal. This medal has two varieties, proof and matte proof, the proof is much rarer than the matter proof. UNC, with original box. A similar medal sold in Shanghai Orient International Company 2011 auction for RMB 94,600 (US $14,700), This specimen is the finest one we have seen, gem proof with original sealed and original box. Very Rare

Offline r3globe

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 06:14:16 PM »
is not $14,700 still a low number for such rarity?? IS it part of the Chinese still not appreciating medals?

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2011, 08:44:41 PM »
Any comment, opinion, thought on these two bronze 60mm medals....

Notice the "HEROS" on the first medal and "HEROES" on the second medal.

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2011, 11:39:06 PM »
Nice looking bronze.  Two were sold in the Hong Kong Auction.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »
sold price?

Offline tkcoin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 01:17:38 AM »
This great wall metal has many versions, going as early at leaet as 1980, because I have a brass vesion that has 1980 on the metal. I am very suspiciou of mintage numbers quoted here. These are early tourist/forieng guest metals and should have no mintage records left. China's mint usually did keep records in those days.

There are still quiet some silver ones in China. I have seen post a few month ago that brags about getting it less the $500 on taobao and selling it for $1200.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 07:51:58 AM »
Pictures? Links?

Offline tkcoin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2011, 10:15:25 PM »
I have some pictures of my brass version metal but I don't know how to upload them here.

Just did some search on Baidu in Chiese and see some posts on the great wall metal:

this is a recent, 2011-01-04, sale on Zhouonline.com a very well known China aution site, 90 RMB for the 1987 bronze version:
http://www.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-847127-detail.shtml

This is on sale post for a 1985 brass version, for 5800 RMB posted on 2011-8-29:
http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=25&ID=49927
It was sold.

This is another version of brass, open for bid right now currently at 2,360 RMB and still going:
http://www.7788qb.com/a171/2277697/

The one I have is very close to the last one but has a 1980 mark on the metal. I have not been able to find any reference 1980 version on the web so far.

Here is a link that shows silver version metal:
http://www.quancang.com/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=235&ID=34758

Here is another post that talks about the silver version being bought for 4000 RMB and 7000 RMB and of mintage 68 and current market price over 10,000 RMB.

Offline tkcoin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »
The missling link for:
Here is another post that talks about the silver version being bought for 4000 RMB and 7000 RMB and of mintage 68 and current market price over 10,000 RMB

http://www.xx007.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardID=9&ID=4027168

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2011, 12:59:18 AM »
I have some pictures of my brass version metal but I don't know how to upload them here.

This is on sale post for a 1985 brass version, for 5800 RMB posted on 2011-8-29:
http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=25&ID=49927
It was sold.

When you reply, on the bottom left is an "Additional Options..." link for uploading.

WOW.  5800 RMB for the brass.

Offline tkcoin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2011, 05:21:43 PM »
OK here are pictures of my 1980 brass version:

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2011, 11:21:15 PM »
The missling link for:
Here is another post that talks about the silver version being bought for 4000 RMB and 7000 RMB and of mintage 68 and current market price over 10,000 RMB

http://www.xx007.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardID=9&ID=4027168



which year are they referring too
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Offline MrOrganic

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 11:25:59 PM »
Any comment, opinion, thought on these two bronze 60mm medals....

Notice the "HEROS" on the first medal and "HEROES" on the second medal.

Both versions do not match the one put out by the china mint. "1984"

"square with lettering inside"....
EMERGING MARKET GROUP  
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Long Beach Expo
..Table #838

DECEMBER: Macau/H.K.

JANUARY: N.Y.

AUGUST: Hong Kong


GO TO my Ebay Click: http://stores.ebay.com/worldcollectibles310

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Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 11:33:06 PM »
Both versions do not match the one put out by the china mint. "1984"

"square with lettering inside"....

Mind pointing out in a picture?  I don't see the difference.  Thanks.

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 02:13:30 PM »
Thats beyond my computer skills... LOL

If you have the "red" catalog of china mint coins just compare them.

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Offline tkcoin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 09:03:30 PM »
I don't think there is Version 1. It looks like a counterfeit of the 90s, too shiny, and it tries to mimic the 1985 great wall bronze version. The 1985 bronze are mostly counterfeits and that is why they are so cheap, currently at $14.

There is no talk of silver version 1 or 2 in China. In China, there is only one version, which is the copy of 1984 bronze version.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2012, 12:46:51 AM »
I found 3 versions of the Great Wall silver medal, one is matte and the other 2 have a proof/mirror background. How is it possible that with a mintage of 68 there are 3 different versions? 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:57:43 AM by Gilmore »

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2012, 02:00:38 AM »
This was sent to me I believe by poconopenn?  It's been awhile so I can't remember.  From the research and information I have received the 1984 Version I, which is the "error" version without the "e" in Heroe's comes in a proof and matt proof.  Then Version II is the correction of the misspelling.

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2012, 02:02:51 AM »
From the auction in Hong Kong.

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2012, 03:00:25 AM »
I found 3 versions of the Great Wall silver medal, one is matte and the other 2 have a proof/mirror background. How is it possible that with a mintage of 68 there are 3 different versions? 

For questions in the form:

"How is it possible that with a mintage of X there are Y different versions?"

very often, the answer is "because it wasn't perfect yet". It seems that the China mint lacked enough experience for the early modern Chinese coins to get it right the first time. Even now, in 2012, they have reported a broken die after a small fraction of the mintage was produced. Broken dies are usually caused by the interaction of the hardening process with unpredictable quirks the design. Hardening is very challenging, even for an experienced mint, and sometimes we get several varieties for low mintage coins because they had to change the design a few times to prevent the die from cracking after it gets hardened.

Of course, that just makes collecting much more fun and challenging. Who will be the first to obtain all 3 great wall varieties in a 69 grade? Is it even possible? Interesting....

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2012, 03:05:58 AM »
I think a better explanation is that there were few restrictions followed on mintage limits, and there was money to be made.

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2012, 03:13:58 AM »
If you can find 68 + 1 of those great wall coins, I will be impressed. I was looking for them when they were supposed to be cheap, and I was not able to obtain one. I will be impressed if you can find 10 of them. No, find 5, and we'll call that good.

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2012, 03:16:38 AM »
I knew a guy who worked in a cannery....canning beans...

Bragged how sometimes he and his night-shift buddies would can frogs.... Just cuz they could...

We have NO idea what motivation drove early China Mint production runs.... A few dollars under the counter here or there....

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 03:24:41 AM »
Unfounded accusations and speculations are indistinguishable from trolling. Either way, that's enough for today.

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2012, 03:30:53 AM »
Trolling?  Seriously?  Au contraire...

You show me a series with a lot of varieties, and I'll say multiple production runs with many more than official mintage figures.

Defending lower, irrational mintage figures for the sake of holding up price valuation for one's own benefit, is to me,  trolling


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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2012, 03:45:47 AM »
Unfounded accusations and speculations are indistinguishable from trolling. Either way, that's enough for today.

Do you have any dissagreement with the proven history of the multiple runs of say, Historical Figures Series, from German Distributor, and my statement that mintage restrictions were ignored if there was money to be made?  Really?
You saying 100%, that mintage numbers were accurately adhered to? Wow...

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2012, 04:10:58 AM »
I found 3 versions of the Great Wall silver medal, one is matte and the other 2 have a proof/mirror background. How is it possible that with a mintage of 68 there are 3 different versions? 


I think you answered your own rhetorical question, as you know.

We, as collectors of Modern Chinese Coins, need to come to terms with reality, even if unseemly.

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »
NGC has graded several of these Great Wall medals in silver and bronze.  When they grade the silver version, do they distinguish between proof and matte?.  Are they recognizing two design varieties?  When they grade the copper/brass/bronze version, are they identifying the metal type, the design variety and the date? Mark Bonke

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2012, 06:11:24 PM »
If you can find 68 + 1 of those great wall coins, I will be impressed.

NGC has graded several of these Great Wall medals in silver and bronze.  When they grade the silver version, do they distinguish between proof and matte?.  Are they recognizing two design varieties?

Looking at NGC's census they distinguish between the proof and matte versions of the silver medal. There were 4 proofs graded and 6 mattes. The mattes achieved very good grades.
Matte - 69: 3, 68: 2, 66: 1
Proof - 67: 1, 66: 1, 64: 1, 63: 1

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldBaseGrades.aspx?MajorCategory=WORLD%20COINS&CatDesc=CHINA+-+PEOPLE%27S+REPUBLIC&Denom=S3.3OZ

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2012, 07:09:08 PM »
Thank you for the information.

Last year, at one of the coin shows in Chicago, Nicolas Brown with Majestic Rarities, had 5 or 6 versions of 1984 Great Wall medal.  If I remember correctly, he had a proof silver, a matte silver, a brass, a copper and one or two others.  I do not remember if any of them were graded.  He had an expert at his tables who seemed to know everything anyone would ever want to know about these medals.  His name is Huang Rui Yong, a director of the Shanghai Numismatic Society (and the holder of many other very important positions in Shanghai).  He tried to explain to me the varieties and metal types, which were common, which were not, and the current prices for the various varieties in mainland China.  In all honesty, I got very confused and came away thinking it is better to own a proof silver than a matte silver, but it may be better to own either than a brass, copper or other non-silver medal.  I wish that he would write an article about this so that I could have it and study it.  After reading various posts on this topic, I cannot remember if any or all of these had the word "hero" misspelled and I do not remember if the Great Wall design extended to the bottom of the medal or if there was a flat line stopping the design and leaving space for writing.  If anyone saw this exhibit and remembers the details, I would appreciate the information.  If by chance, anyone took a picture of this exhibit, it would be wonderful to see the picture of the various Great Walls.  Mark Bonke

Mark Bonke 

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2012, 09:07:26 PM »
Just to summarize all the information that was presented here up to now, the medal has 6 versions - 3 in silver, 1 bronze and 2 copper.

Silver (Planned mintage = 200, Actual mintage = 68), proof version is far more rare than matte
1. Proof - "Heroes" spelled correctly
2. Proof error - "Heros", Heroes misspelled
3. Matte error - "Heros", Heroes misspelled
Photos of all 3 versions: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4488.msg32632#msg32632

4. Bronze, photos: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4488.msg26572#msg26572

5. Copper
6. Copper error
Photos: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4488.msg26087#msg26087

I will update this information to the Coin Compendium.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2012, 02:42:07 AM »
Looking very good Badon.
Regarding CC6630, this specimen has no grade but is "UNC Details". I placed the "UNC Details" in the Grade tab but it does not look right.
How do we list in the CC coins/medals like this one that were authenticated by NGC/PCGS but have no grade?

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2012, 02:58:51 AM »
Put a grade of "0". The Sheldon grading scale goes from 1 to 70, so in the CC, "0" is reserved for certified coins that are identified or authenticated, but not graded. Some ancient coins may have grades that don't use the Sheldon 70 point scale, but they can be converted to the 70 point scale pretty easily:

http://www.ngccoin.com/ancients/grading.aspx

When we start putting ancient coins into the CC, I'll publish the exact conversion scale we will use.

We can't use that conversion table for an "UNC Details" grade because "UNC Details" is technically not a grade. It is just a description that basically means "If X, Y, and Z were not wrong with this coin, it would have the equivalent of ABC-grade details".

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2012, 07:42:42 AM »
My new medal  :biggrin:

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2012, 09:23:48 AM »
I picked it up on Zhaoonline for $3300 including buyer's premium. That was the opening price and my bid was the only one so clearly I overpaid for it. I really think that for its tiny mintage of 68 this medal should bring much higher prices. But apparently it is not as popular as other medals with much higher mintage figures. This is a long term hold for me so I really did not mind overpaying for it. In my opinion it has a lot of potential for a significant price increase in the coming years and that is why I purchased it and would have paid a lot more - tiny mintage, first big size silver medal and the first error medal. Let's see in 10 years.... time will tell.

At the end of the month I will visit Shanghai and will pick it up.

Offline adamc4

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2012, 01:36:04 PM »
I don't know that much about the coin, but that's a really interesting purchase Gilmore. I'm glad to know there was real money behind that one bid. Congrats

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 01:40:12 PM »
Gilmore

I own a 1984 Great Wall 3.3oz silver medal, graded as a proof (not matte proof)(with "heros").  My medal is toned.  Your medal is not.  Due to the glare in the details of your pictures, I struggled to make a comparison between my medal and your medal.  With this low mintage, the details should be the same.  I saw several differences in the trees on the Great Wall side.  If these details are real and not a figment of my imagination, there are even more varieties.  When you get your medal in your hands, take pictures in better lighting.  This will let me make a better comparison.  If I still see differences, I will post pictures of my medal on the coin forum.  Until I see better pictures, these differences may or may not exist.  Congratulations!

Mark Bonke

ps  Imagine if every member of the coin forum would purchase one of these medals and hold it.  Imagine the value when one of these would come into the marketplace in the future.  Wow!

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »
Gilmore

I always assumed the only difference between the proof and the matte was the finish.  When I re-read my comments, I realized the design differences which I was seeing between your medal and my medal may be normal.  Creation of different dies for proof and matte finishes resulted in minor design differences.

If the mintage is truly 68 with two or three varieties, we should not see two medals in this auction.  Either the mintage is higher or . . .

Mark Bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2012, 03:23:35 PM »

If the mintage is truly 68 with two or three varieties, we should not see two medals in this auction.  Either the mintage is higher or . . .

Mark Bonke

Its not liek their not making then anymor -

Oh oh..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-Mint-1989-Great-Wall-of-China-copper-60mm-CHINA-COIN-MEDAL-/221010909468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337546d91c#ht_500wt_689

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2012, 08:57:01 PM »
This coin is known to be one that is counterfeited.  I sold one graded PF64UC last month to a Chinese buyer for $ 7,000.00.  The fact there were no other bids would alarm me.  I would examine this coin very carefully to assure it's authenticity.  I would seek the advice of the master of counterfeit detection, our very own poconopenn.  If it's real you got a great deal.

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2012, 11:09:19 PM »
If the mintage is truly 68 with two or three varieties, we should not see two medals in this auction.  Either the mintage is higher or . . .

My thought as well. I still having trouble making sense of the fact that there are 3 varieties for such a tiny mintage. It may not be 68 which is the actual mintage, but 200 (the planned mintage). Anyway, the mintage is relatively small and it will take only a few strong hands to push the price higher. 

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2012, 11:15:34 PM »
This coin is known to be one that is counterfeited.  I sold one graded PF64UC last month to a Chinese buyer for $ 7,000.00.  The fact there were no other bids would alarm me.  I would examine this coin very carefully to assure it's authenticity.  I would seek the advice of the master of counterfeit detection, our very own poconopenn.  If it's real you got a great deal.

Hi Jim,
Zhaoonline accepts returns in cases of authenticity issues so I'll have it examined by NGC once I receive it and if there are any problems with it back it goes to them. I will contact poconopenn as well for his opinion.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2012, 11:21:41 PM »
I sold one graded PF64UC last month to a Chinese buyer for $ 7,000.00.

By the way Jim, a PF64 was sold yesterday in Zhaoonline for $5,500. Since NGC census shows only 1 medal graded 64 it should be the one you previously sold to the Chinese buyres.

http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-1545869-detail.shtml

Offline KonaJim

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2012, 11:32:51 PM »
Yes, that was the coin I sold last month.  I wonder why my buyer sold it?

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2012, 10:47:35 PM »
I picked it up on Zhaoonline for $3300 including buyer's premium. That was the opening price and my bid was the only one so clearly I overpaid for it. I really think that for its tiny mintage of 68 this medal should bring much higher prices. But apparently it is not as popular as other medals with much higher mintage figures. This is a long term hold for me so I really did not mind overpaying for it. In my opinion it has a lot of potential for a significant price increase in the coming years and that is why I purchased it and would have paid a lot more - tiny mintage, first big size silver medal and the first error medal. Let's see in 10 years.... time will tell.

At the end of the month I will visit Shanghai and will pick it up.

Based on conversations, I have a suspicion that there may be more than 68 total. Here are snapshots of the proof variety:




Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2012, 03:01:18 AM »
The great wall silver medal I purchased last May returned from NGC last week labeled as "authenticity questionable". The medal has been sent back to Zhaoonline along with the grader's report NGC provided. Zhaoonline took responsibility for their mistake and refunded the amount I paid including additional $205 for NCS, NGC evaluation and return shipping fees. So at the end no money was lost here.
I don't even want to think about a scenario of me keeping it raw only to find out 10 years later that it is fake and the $3300 I paid for it turned to $0.

Special thanks to poconopenn who helped me by emails inspecting this medal and pointing out the questionable authenticity issue before it was shipped to NGC. The guy really is the master of counterfeit detection. Thank you poconopenn  :thumbup:

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2012, 08:18:55 AM »

Special thanks to poconopenn who helped me by emails inspecting this medal and pointing out the questionable authenticity issue before it was shipped to NGC. The guy really is the master of counterfeit detection. Thank you poconopenn  :thumbup:

Poconopenn is a master of Chnese numismatics in general. This Forum is constantly enriched by his knowledge, and generosity.

Incidentally, the Great Wall Medal shown in my previous post came back fom NGC graded 67.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China PricepedIa
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2012, 09:00:17 AM »
Congrats Peter. One rare piece you have. I did not realize from your prevoius post that it is actually yours.

By the way,  has the new edition of your panda book has been released? I want to buy a copy.


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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2012, 02:28:37 PM »
Congrats Peter. One rare piece you have. I did not realize from your prevoius post that it is actually yours.

Unfortunately, it's not. It has a more interesting history than most, too. It was originally an official gift of the China Mint to a VIP at a conference. Then it sat untouched in a drawer for more than twenty years until the owner and I started talking.

By the way,  has the new edition of your panda book has been released? I want to buy a copy.




The new edition is still a work in progress. ETA is December of this year; stay tuned.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com1

Offline badon

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2012, 06:27:39 PM »
$3300 for a genuine great wall would have been a jaw-dropper. I would have paid twice that much and still thought I was getting it for half price :)

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2012, 05:28:36 PM »
I am brand new to this forum and I may have mistakenly posted this message to another part of this forum so if this is a duplicate, please pardon my confusion.

Thank you to all those who have contributed to this thread...I have learned a lot from your posts. I would be happy to get any feedback since I am brand new here and to learning about the China Great Wall medals. Here's the story of the Great Wall medal I own...

Back in the mid to late 1980's, a couple of years after graduating high school, not looking to buy anything but a couple of new shirts, I came across a coin dealer who had a store in a mall in a rapidly expanding Asian community here in Flushing, New York.

I had no interest at all in coins or silver at this time but I did have a great fascination with Chinese history and especially the Boxer Rebellion and the Great Wall of China. As I was passing the coin dealer's shop, my eye was struck by a shiny Great Wall medal.

I asked the woman if I could see this beautiful medal and after about a minute of being transfixed by the detail and the inscription on the backside, I asked the young Chinese woman how much was this item I had in my hands. Now I definitely can't remember any figures but I believe she said something like $50 and I was just about to pay that when an old man hurredly came out from the back of the shop and in a somewhat angered voice said something in Chinese to the young Chinese woman who then immediately told me a price that was twice or three times higher than what she initially told me. I initially said no at this point because if I purchased this curious item, I would have no money left to buy the shirts I wanted. After walking a few steps away, I returned and begrudgingly paid the new asking price and left the mall with a cool looking Great Wall of China medal but no new shirts.

It's only been in very recent years that I began believing that precious metals like silver and gold are a good way to invest some of my money instead of continuing to dump money into my small and abismally devalued mutual funds investment. It was only at this time that I remembered that I have tucked away somewhere in a drawer something made of what appears to be silver. I found it and not knowing anything about coins/medals and their values, I used Noxon to polish this medal so that I can enjoy the look of a shiny medal instead of the tarnished one that I was looking at.

So, the first 2 pictures I link to here are of the medal I purchased back in the 1980's after I polished it a few years ago. The next 2 pictures are of the original wooden box it came in and the coin inside the box. These were taken today.

IMAGE 1


DIRECT LINK:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/Thegreatwallofchinamedal.jpg

IMAGE 2


DIRECT LINK:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/Thegreatwallofchinamedalreverse.jpg

IMAGE 3


DIRECT LINK:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/TheGreatWallofChinamedalbox.jpg

IMAGE 4


The thin yellow thing near the lower right of the medal is the yellow tab that sits under the coin which allows the coin to be lifted out of the molded base.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/TheGreatWallofChinamedalinbox.jpg


This is the only forum that I have found any talk of this medal. I don't own any old coins. I have not seriously considered getting this medal authenticated / graded because of the cost of grading and frankly, if I do send in a coin that may be rare or valuable to a grading company, how would I know that they don't switch mine with a replica or fake one?

My question to anyone who wants to chime in, is it possible or even likely that I have an authentic  medal? I would be very surprised that I do because of the seemingly low price I paid and also I have never been so lucky to have stumbled across anything of real value. My guess is that I may have bought a replica (which is okay because when I purchased it I wasn't even thinking of any potential value...I bought it because it is beautiful). If it is a replica, then spending any of my hard earned money on grading would be money down the tube, yes?

I wouldn't even know where to get sucg a thing graded and what the best way to do this is.

Any feedback or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Warmly,
Louie

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2012, 10:03:43 AM »
“八达岭长城和梅花”长城纪念章,由上海造币厂骆行沙先生设计雕刻(骆行沙 1940.4.1——1998.1.4),有《梅花长城图》的纪念章,最早的产生年代不详,应该是1980年甚至更早的时候。梅花长城这一面的设计雕刻堪称经典,上海造币厂曾多次使用此“八达岭长城和梅花”图,纪念章另一面配以不同内容和图案,生产过多种不同的纪念章,(如大家熟知的:“不到长城非好汉”篆字印文及缺少字母“E”的错版纪念章,是其中的一种,分为:有“1980”年号黄铜和无年号、以及不同材质等多种版本)纪念章直径一般都是60毫米,材质有H68本色黄铜(参见《中国黄铜加工牌号及化学成分表》)、上色黄铜、上色紫铜、铜镀金、铜镀银、纯银等多种。
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2012, 10:10:15 AM »
"HEROES"正确版长城纪念章,是王振峰和骆行沙设计雕刻的,长城图完全不同于《八达岭长城梅花图》,这种有“中国长城  THE GREAT WALL”字样的长城图,也曾被上海造币厂多次使用,使用多种不同的材质、另一面配以不同的内容和图案,生成过多种不同的纪念章,最早的使用时间不详,可能是1987年。而且,我发现:此种纪念章的篆刻印章“不到长城非好汉”,也存在版本差异,细节有些不同;长城图那一面,还分为“有云彩版”和“无云彩版”。
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline RAREMEDAL

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2012, 10:50:22 AM »
《八达岭长城梅花图》背面缺少字母“E”的错版长城纪念章(俗称“错版长城”章),紫铜版的在中国大陆市面至少有两种版本的假货赝品。另一种被认为珍贵的“银色”版(银的颜色)(实际成份暂时未确定),镜面和喷砂对比版(NGC称之为:UC,ULTRA CAMEO 即:贝壳浮雕质感),俗称“镜面错版长城”章。这种纪念章近两年突然出现了多枚,并有多枚被NGC公司评级封装,评级了不同的分数。此章被NGC标为:“1984 CHINA S3.3 OZ GREAT WALL”。但是,据我所知,这种“镜面错版长城”章,正面、背面、侧面边缘,均没有标注有关重量和成分含量的标示文字或戳记;并且,这种章的实际重量远远超出“3.3两”。我不知道NGC公司在评级封装前,有没有精确称重。如果没有称重,那么我认为这是一个极大的失误。精确称重,是做钱币鉴定最重要的要素之一。
RAREMEDAL — Feng Jingjing sir. I come from He'nan of China.
I love chinese rare medals and golden and silver coins.
My E-mail:2209925761@qq.com
My blog:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/zhongyuanfeng555

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2012, 06:07:13 PM »
谢谢你的帮助。

我是美国人,我使用谷歌翻译,所以我希望你明白这一点。 1987年我购买了大约金牌的重量是103克。非磁性,这似乎是真正的银。我买了它从中国钱币经销商在纽约法拉盛大约25年前为50美元。什么公司在美国,我应该采取金牌认证和分级?

谢谢你的帮助。

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2012, 09:18:18 PM »
Attached are pictures of enlarged section of carved seal for this coin. It is the most obvious section to determine if the coin is counterfeit or not.

First picture is from NGC PF67, posted by pandacollector, with “THE GREAT WALL” on top and中国长城 at the bottom of the design of obverse. The “heroes” is spelled correctly. The seal “不到长城非好汉”is carved concave.
 
Second picture is from NGC PF64, original owned by KonaJim and had changed hand twice recently. The design of great wall extended all the way to the rim. The design does not have “THR GREAT WALL” or中国长城 at obverse side. The “heroes” was spelled incorrectly as “heros”. The seal “不到长城非好汉”is carved concave.

Third picture is from Gilmore, deemed as questionable authenticity by NGC. It is a matte version of NGC PF64 mentioned above, but with correct spelling of “heroes”. The seal “不到长城非好汉” is different, convex type.

Fourth picture is from NGC detail, same version as NGC PF64 mentioned above, but with correct spelling of “heroes”. The seal “不到长城非好汉”is carved concave.
 
Fifth picture is from mmissinglink The coin design is identical to NGC PF67 mentioned above, except seal “不到长城非好汉” is different, convex type.

Apparently, NGC has graded three versions and having the same seal, concave type.

The sixth and seventh pictures are copied from Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial Vol. 1 (Shen Jiaju edited and Distributed by The People's Bank of China and China Gold Coin Limited). The coin in this picture does not match any of the above five coin. The picture show the obverse of this coin matches NGC PF64 mentioned above, but the seal in reverse is different, convex type.

There is a chance that the differences observed in the pictures may be just optical illusion. Petercollector and mmissinglink, please examine your coin to determine if the seal indeed has two versions, concave and convex.

IMO, based on the pictures, mmissinglink’s coin is genuine. Now we may have five versions of proof coin and one matte version.


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2012, 10:20:29 PM »
Wow! Thank you....I will read more carefully your entire comment and pictures. I think these are going to be very helpful pictures and information.


Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2012, 10:47:43 PM »
This is all the NGC data I have concerning the Great Wall:
 
3306854-003   (1984) CHINA GREAT WALL   Medal Unc detail      
3347564-005   (1984) CHINA GREAT WALL   Medal PF64      
3357451-005   (1984) CHINA GREAT WALL   Medal MS68      
3357451-006   (1984) CHINA GREAT WALL   Medal MS68      
3553424-005   (1984) CHINA GREAT WALL   Medal PF67   

The only one that matched your coin, mmissinglink, is the last one, 3553424-005.  Attached is a picture of the seal.  It appears as convex, yet different than yours.  Pay close attention to the last character at lower left 漢  and the shape and thickness of the frame around the seal.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2012, 12:08:29 AM »
I just looked at the seal on my coin and I am confirming that the letters are raised or convex.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2012, 12:11:52 AM »
I see what you mean about the character...on my coin, the lines are dashed....is that the difference you refer to? Is there a character in Chinese that actually has dashed instead of full lines or is this some sort of false character?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2012, 12:18:39 AM »
Why might there be so many variations? Was this done on purpose by the minter to try out different designs or is my medal possibly a fake? I did pay back in the 1980's very little for the medal....maybe $100 or so. Maybe the old Chinese coin dealer in Flushing sold me a fake but that doesn't bother me because it is still a beautiful medal even if it is fake. But then again, the box that came with the medal....the inside is made concave perfectly to fit the medal. All of this is very interesting to piece together the history of the Great Wall medals

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2012, 12:31:48 AM »
Okay, I did check the close-up pictures and I do see that the character on my medal does match the character on several of the other medals pictured. So apparently it must be a real Chinese character that just happens to be a little different than the one which has a solid line instead or dashed or segmented lines.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2012, 12:33:28 AM »
Do you recommend that I contact a company like NGC to get my medal authenticated and graded or should I wait till there is more information known about the different variations of this medal?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2012, 12:45:55 AM »
Why might there be so many variations? Was this done on purpose by the minter to try out different designs or is my medal possibly a fake? I did pay back in the 1980's very little for the medal....maybe $100 or so. Maybe the old Chinese coin dealer in Flushing sold me a fake but that doesn't bother me because it is still a beautiful medal even if it is fake. But then again, the box that came with the medal....the inside is made concave perfectly to fit the medal. All of this is very interesting to piece together the history of the Great Wall medals

You medal has a correct weight. If this is a fake plated medal, you will see inside metal after polished. If you bought in mid-1980, there was no fake medal or coin at that time. The large size silver coin is difficult to make. The production die has to rework constantly. Since this coin misspelled the heroes, China mint had to make a new die for correct spelling. $100 for this medal in 1980's was not cheap.  The 1983 1 oz silver panda was about $35 and 5 oz 1987 silver panda was about $60 at that time.

Your coin was polished. It will not considered as UNC and may be AU details.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 12:49:44 AM by poconopenn »

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2012, 01:00:50 AM »
Is there a price guide of some sort for these medals? I am curious how much value did I lose by polishing? Is an AU Great Wall medal worth the cost of grading even? I mean, if it costs $200 to grade and an AU coin like this is only worth $200, then it's not even worth grading, right?  I wish I would have known a few years ago what I know today because of course I would not have polished the medal then. That really sucks that I did not know that several years ago.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2012, 02:20:14 AM »
Missinglink-
When were your photos taken?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2012, 07:54:53 AM »
Your medal gets 5 of 6 possible stars from Mr Ge.  That is one expensive medal but the polishing may have dropped value greatly.  It will be interesting to see what price you are offered.  Why not email CCF member Konajim?..................

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2012, 08:20:09 AM »
The pics of the polished medal were taken about 7 years ago. The other 2 were taken a few days ago.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2012, 08:23:02 AM »
I'm new here and I looked around to see how I can "CCF" another member but I am unsure how this is done. I don't even know what CCF means....I'm assuming it's a personal way of contacting a member?

Offline NBM

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2012, 08:48:17 AM »
CCF = China Coin Forum
KonaJim's profile has the info you need.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=8529

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2012, 09:00:11 AM »
The pictures I took of the coin after I polished it were taken about 7 or 8 years ago with a film camera and so all these images here are scans of the developed film pictures from about 8 years ago. As you can see I shifted the light source a little in each picture so that certain details on the coin that are not as clkear in one shot become more clear in the other.




















Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2012, 09:01:39 AM »
Some of the images have a piece of hair....that's not a scratch

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2012, 05:49:10 PM »
Very rare and outstanding medal.  Konajim sold one or 2 of these last year, I think.  Thats why I mentioned him as he may be able to provide price............

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2012, 06:18:54 PM »
Is there a price guide of some sort for these medals? I am curious how much value did I lose by polishing? Is an AU Great Wall medal worth the cost of grading even? I mean, if it costs $200 to grade and an AU coin like this is only worth $200, then it's not even worth grading, right?  I wish I would have known a few years ago what I know today because of course I would not have polished the medal then. That really sucks that I did not know that several years ago.

mmissinglink:

1) I don't think it's going to cost you $200 to grade that coin.  Join NGC as a member, then send it in to grade. With so much confusion, it will be of great help to you to have it certified - whether you sell it or not. Poconopenn is the most reliable expert on Chinese coins here. If he says it's genuine, there's 99.99% chance you will have no problem.
2) You won't have to worry the medal (if genuine) will only fetch $200. Even if it grades low because it's polished, you will get a lot more than $200.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2012, 06:53:58 PM »
Okay, now I understand...that makes sense Pandamonium. Thank you.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2012, 07:09:53 PM »
mmissinglink,

I agree with dynamike.  It won't cost you $200 to grade the coin.  The coin, if genuine, is worth quite a bit more than $200 because it is so rare even though a lot of value is lost via polishing.  NGC or PCGS can establish its authenticity and just how much damage is done to the coin.  If you choose to sell it, your buyer will know exactly what they are buying.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »
Okay, now I understand...that makes sense Pandamonium. Thank you.


Thanks for the good advice dynamike. It is because of generous people like the members of this forum that I have learned more in a couple or so days than I have in the past few years regarding this fascinating and apparently rare Chinese medal. While I have always loved the beauty of this Great Wall medal, I would never have suspected that it could be as valuable as it seems to be.

I will probably kick myself for a long time thinking about how I depreciated the value of this gem of a medal by not realizing how cleaning off the natural silver tarnish affects its value.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2012, 07:20:35 PM »
SANDAC, thanks for corroborating the advice by dynamike. I will look into getting membership with NGC.


Now if I eventually do decide to sell this wonderful medal, do you good people have any advice or suggestions on what might be a good choice to get most exposure?

I have had this medal for so long that I am not even sure I want to sell it, but I do have steep medical expenses and this may help quite a bit to ease the pain of those bills. I'm sure you can all understand the impulse for that.

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2012, 10:07:11 PM »
Grading by NGC is your best option.  However, you could take digital photos (no digital phone cams) of it from various angles and post them on CCF to possibly guage what price you could get.  I doubt it will sell cheap.  The biggest concern is the polishing but maybe digital photos will show that.  What is Noxon?  A cream paste w/ grit?.............

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2012, 10:41:06 PM »
Grading by NGC is your best option.  However, you could take digital photos (no digital phone cams) of it from various angles and post them on CCF to possibly guage what price you could get.  I doubt it will sell cheap.  The biggest concern is the polishing but maybe digital photos will show that.  What is Noxon?  A cream paste w/ grit?.............

Hi Pandamonium,

Yes, Noxon is a viscous creamy paste and I have to assume that thiere is some sort of fine grit in there.

I'm assuming that the grading is the first step. Is there enough information out there about The Great Wall medal so that the folks at NGC would be aware of different genuine variations of a rare medal? It seems, from the little I was able to find on the web, that there is still a lot that is not known about these Great Wall medals....do I have that right? If I do, maybe it's premature to get the coin graded until more is known about the different variations and such.

But let's say that I went ahead anyway and got the medal graded by NGC....I'm assuming that this is a requisite before trying to ascertain what price this medal might fetch. Now, is there a section that people use in CCF where they post pictures and specifically ask members what they might pay? How would this be done?

Offline NBM

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2012, 11:55:58 PM »
  What is Noxon?  A cream paste w/ grit?.............

Metal Polish, Used To Clean and Shine Brass, Bronze, Copper, Chromium, Stainless Steel, Aluminum and Pewter.

http://www.amazon.com/Reckitt-Benckiser-6233800117-Noxon-Polish/dp/B000QOIEVC

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2012, 12:35:42 AM »
Yeah, please don't remind me....I will be kicking myself for a long time for being so ignorant about cleaning a coin with a polish. Sigh.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2012, 12:41:09 AM »
Oh, enough... Stop beating yourself up over it -  it's only second worse, to the guy I knew who shined up his Piedfort Gold Year of Child Coin


with a power sander with 10 grit auto body
carbide wheel ...
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2012, 12:43:32 AM »
Hi Pandamonium,

Yes, Noxon is a viscous creamy paste and I have to assume that thiere is some sort of fine grit in there.

I'm assuming that the grading is the first step. Is there enough information out there about The Great Wall medal so that the folks at NGC would be aware of different genuine variations of a rare medal? It seems, from the little I was able to find on the web, that there is still a lot that is not known about these Great Wall medals....do I have that right? If I do, maybe it's premature to get the coin graded until more is known about the different variations and such.

But let's say that I went ahead anyway and got the medal graded by NGC....I'm assuming that this is a requisite before trying to ascertain what price this medal might fetch. Now, is there a section that people use in CCF where they post pictures and specifically ask members what they might pay? How would this be done?

mmissinglink:

If you don't sell it, grading it will let you know what you have - removing the doubt. On the other hand, if you want to sell it, buyer(s) will want to know the authenticity and its condition. How much this medal will fetch largely depends on the condition.

You spent $100 to buy it 30 years ago. You aren't hesitating to spend $50 (my estimation) to have it graded, are you? It's an easy decision, to me.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2012, 12:53:24 AM »
Oh, enough... Stop beating yourself up over it -  it's only second worse, to the guy I knew who shined up his Piedfort Gold Year of Child Coin


with a power sander with 10 grit auto body
carbide wheel ...


Ha ha! I know that can't be true but the effect is what counts....thanks for helping me brighten up!

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2012, 12:59:35 AM »
mmissinglink:

If you don't sell it, grading it will let you know what you have - removing the doubt. On the other hand, if you want to sell it, buyer(s) will want to know the authenticity and its condition. How much this medal will fetch largely depends on the condition.

You spent $100 to buy it 30 years ago. You aren't hesitating to spend $50 (my estimation) to have it graded, are you? It's an easy decision, to me.

Right, the numbers make the choice seem so obvious. There's no doubt, thanks to the advice from the kind members here, that getting it graded is the only meaningful thing to do. In fact, for enthusiasts of such coins and medals, which clearly there are many in this forum, they are probably as interested as I to learn how much or little damage I have done to such a precious rare item and what grading it will receive.

I will give updates here and of course when I get the coin back I will naturally post pics and results.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2012, 01:02:13 AM »
Right, the numbers make the choice seem so obvious. There's no doubt, thanks to the advice from the kind members here, that getting it graded is the only meaningful thing to do. In fact, for enthusiasts of such coins and medals, which clearly there are many in this forum, they are probably as interested as I to learn how much or little damage I have done to such a precious rare item and what grading it will receive.

I will give updates here and of course when I get the coin back I will naturally post pics and results.

Can't wait. Good luck.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2012, 01:07:56 AM »
 
Oh, enough... Stop beating yourself up over it -  it's only second worse, to the guy I knew who shined up his Piedfort Gold Year of Child Coin


with a power sander with 10 grit auto body
carbide wheel ...
Are you serious? How many tens of thousands of dollars went down the drain?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2012, 01:19:31 AM »
Relax, just an inside joke with DynaMike and Pandamonium from an old thread about cleaning valuable coins with sandpaper and belt sanders - HA !
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2012, 09:32:51 AM »
Ha!  Its true.  One of my new collectors did take sandpaper to a 1994 SD? OMP and I showed him an ebay asking sale price of $8,000 for a MS 70.  He still moans about it.  I doubt NGC will hire him.............

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2012, 11:09:39 AM »
Sandpaper....seriously? Hard to believe. Even I, who several years ago knew nothing about depreciating a coins value if cleaning it, would not ever have considered using sandpaper on a coin. I'm feeling better already.   :001_smile:

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2012, 11:36:49 AM »
Sandpaper....seriously? Hard to believe. Even I, who several years ago knew nothing about depreciating a coins value if cleaning it, would not ever have considered using sandpaper on a coin. I'm feeling better already.   :001_smile:
You were not that wrong in cleaning it. You just did not use the right stuff, like eZest. But NGC can easily catch a cleaned Great Wall because there are so few of them.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2012, 11:48:28 AM »
I will not clean any coin or medal from here on in even though I appreciate the eZest suggestion. One bad experience is enough for me.   :blush:

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2012, 01:32:12 PM »
I would agree with a few of the other posters here that your best option would be to get it graded by NGC.  If you try to sell it as is and disclose the polishing as you sell it, the uncertainty of the extent of the damage will bring in lower offers.

By having it graded, you will remove the uncertainty that you and a potential buyer may have.

Also if you do not have plans to grade any coins in the future, you could possibly talk with a local coin dealer that you trust and see if they would submit the coin for you using their account and paying them a small fee.  Just a thought if sending it in yourself seems like a daunting task.


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2012, 04:28:17 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion. Earlier today, after speaking with a customer service agent at NGC, I purchased a paid membership (associate level) to NGC. I like the idea of checking in with a local coin dealer but as I'd already purchased a membership this morning, I suppose the idea is moot.

I noticed that NGC does offer some sort of conservation service (additional cost of course)....is this something worth having done before having them grade and encase it?

Any and all thoughts on this are welcome.

Thank you.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2012, 10:31:57 PM »

I noticed that NGC does offer some sort of conservation service (additional cost of course)....is this something worth having done before having them grade and encase it?


Yes, NGC does have a separate conservation side of the business called NCS.  As a general rule I think NCS is a quality service especially if the coin has toning or other issues.  The challenge will be the price.  If you submit coins that you value at under $300 then you can get a combination NCS / NGC grading for $26.50 plus a small extra fee (can't remember the exact fee) for the oversized holder that a 3.3 oz coin requires.  This service usually requires 5 coins minimum, however from my experience they don't seem too strict on this.

If you are comfortable putting the value at $300 then I would recommend sending it through NCS.  Just remember this will be the insured value and replacement value if there was any problem at NCS or in return to you.

If you decide to declare a higher value for the coin it will end up being 5% of the declared value assuming it is deemed authentic for NCS conservation.  Plus the NGC grading fee of $16.50 + oversized reholder fee.  

If you decide to send it directly to NGC it will only be $16.50 plus the oversized holder fee.

My opinion is declare $300 value and NCS / NGC it since at that price it isn't that much more expensive ($10 more than just NGC).  Especially since the value is hard to peg because of the possible damage.  Although the value is likely much higher than $300.  I am a bit of a risk taker in this regard I suppose.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2012, 11:47:52 PM »
Obsidian,  thank you for the suggestions. I'm going to consider them. I will post updates here as I have something worth sharing and when I do finally receive this beautiful medal back from NGC, I will post all the details here...with pictures of course!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2012, 12:00:36 AM »
Thanks for the suggestion. Earlier today, after speaking with a customer service agent at NGC, I purchased a paid membership (associate level) to NGC. I like the idea of checking in with a local coin dealer but as I'd already purchased a membership this morning, I suppose the idea is moot.

I noticed that NGC does offer some sort of conservation service (additional cost of course)....is this something worth having done before having them grade and encase it?

Any and all thoughts on this are welcome.

Thank you.

My recommendation will be to contact your local NGC dealer. Let NGC dealer examine the coin before submitting to NGC. Actually,the toning on you coin is very attractive in picture. It may increase the value of this coin. All knowledgeable NGC dealer can make recommendation if this coin needs conservation or graded as is. Just remember, you coin has a value of 4 figures and the first number is not 1, even in XF condition.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2012, 12:08:45 AM »

  Just remember, you coin has a value of 4 figures and the first number is not 1, even in XF condition.


WOW !!! poconopenn, I think you just got mmissinglink excited. :0)  Early Christmas for him.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2012, 01:49:41 AM »
WOW !!! poconopenn, I think you just got mmissinglink excited. :0)  Early Christmas for him.


dynamike, everyone deserves a bit of luck once in their life...finally I got my small piece of it. Years of collecting comic books and trading cards has not amounted to much return in the end at all.   :-)

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2012, 01:53:49 AM »
My recommendation will be to contact your local NGC dealer. Let NGC dealer examine the coin before submitting to NGC. Actually,the toning on you coin is very attractive in picture. It may increase the value of this coin. All knowledgeable NGC dealer can make recommendation if this coin needs conservation or graded as is. Just remember, you coin has a value of 4 figures and the first number is not 1, even in XF condition.


Thanks for the suggestion poconopenn. I have serious doubts that NGC will be anywhere near as helpful as the members here. I will call them anyway and ask if I can send them a link to the photos of my medal in the hope that they might suggest to have the medal restored or not. My guess is that they will not oblige me in this but I will ask nonetheless.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2012, 01:59:55 AM »
Hi mmissinglink,
You bought a medal for its beauty without really knowing what it is. At the end it turns out to be an extreme rarity of very high value. It can't get any better than this. I am very happy for you.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2012, 07:49:44 AM »
Great purchase missinglink.  Consider how much it went up in value.  Now consider purchasing other MCC or maybe your family members can look into collecting............

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2012, 09:05:43 AM »
Pandamonium,  thank you. Now forgive my ignorance but what is MCC?

Offline NBM

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2012, 03:50:35 PM »
Pandamonium,  thank you. Now forgive my ignorance but what is MCC?
Modern Chinese Coins

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #121 on: December 12, 2012, 01:55:53 PM »
This seems like good news for collectors and especially those who are getting their MCC authenticated / graded at NGC:   http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=1955

We may even see some clarity on the actual number of 1984 The Great Wall proof silver medals (the different variations) released into circulation as this number seems to still be a mystery.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2013, 07:10:01 PM »
Does anyone know if this auction which includes a 1984 silver proof Great Wall medal is new and going on right now?

....http://www.cghka.com/english/pwm1_2_1.asp?id=51970&type=wlyz&pos=729

I am not familiar with how these online auctions work.
 
Thanks for any help on this.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2013, 01:35:01 AM »
Does anyone know if this auction which includes a 1984 silver proof Great Wall medal is new and going on right now?

....http://www.cghka.com/english/pwm1_2_1.asp?id=51970&type=wlyz&pos=729

I am not familiar with how these online auctions work.
 
Thanks for any help on this.

Auction took place in November 2012.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #124 on: May 29, 2013, 06:41:42 PM »
Thank you....how can I learn what final price the Great Wall medal sold for?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2013, 07:19:30 PM »
Thank you....how can I learn what final price the Great Wall medal sold for?
From the record I checked, it did not sell.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2013, 10:44:17 PM »

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2013, 09:19:09 PM »
Hello Sandac;
              Yes it is the same "The Great Wall" proof.  It has been sold as well.
Regards;
Kirin

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #128 on: October 01, 2013, 10:40:20 PM »
Hello Sandac;
              Yes it is the same "The Great Wall" proof.  It has been sold as well.
Regards;
Kirin

It's a most stunning example of this rare silver proof medal. Do you know what the final sales price was?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #129 on: February 25, 2014, 05:23:38 AM »
So this auction of this rare medal just completed and I was wondering about the box that this medal is in....is it the original box? I have a 1984 3.30z silver proof medal but the box mine came in was a bare wooden box (no colorful material). Anyone knows about the original boxes for these medals?

Also, the medal I own did not come in a plastic capsule yet the medal in this auction is in one yet that capsule fits into the "original box"...is that possible that these medals originally were sold in a plastic capsule?

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1984-Great-Wall-Large-Silver-Medal-3-3-oz-999-Silver-First-In-Series-Rare-/371003786385


.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #130 on: February 25, 2014, 07:02:33 AM »
Hi, I believe that this "peacock" box was a standard release in the West (USA particularly) &
is not the original version that would have been released in China.  The God of Longevity (3 tael - 1987)
was a note worthy release in the West with this type of fabric covered box. 
But none the less it would be circa that same period in time.
IMHO

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #131 on: February 25, 2014, 07:07:33 AM »
Oh, as well, there were two versions.  As noted type 1 & this auction which would be type 2.
The China Mint did not like the design of the type 1 so (probably) with the design change
came the different display in a capsule, sized (to hold the 3 tael with the insert) was
part of the furnished release.  The capsule size actually is for a 5 oz. silver medal/proof.
Thanks

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #132 on: February 25, 2014, 07:10:01 AM »
The COA is an after market certificate as well, I believe,
actually some medals never were furnished with the
original COAs

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2014, 10:46:49 AM »
I find it very interesting that there is still a lot of unknowns or mysteries about the 1984/1987 Great Wall medallions. It seems like no one still knows for certain the number of medals actually released to the public (not the proposed mintage....that's very different), there's uncertainty perhaps about what presentation box this medallion was originally sold, and so forth.

The 3.3 oz Great Wall silver proof medal I purchased in the US back in the 1980's which is the type 2 was sold to me in a wooden box that fit the coin precisely and there was no capsule. A capsule would have not fit in the cut-out depression made for just the medal. My thinking is that for this auction that just ended on eBay, neither the box, the capsule, nor the COA is original.

Here's what my box looks like:  

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/TheGreatWallofChinamedalbox.jpg

and

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/The%20Great%20Wall%20of%20China%20medal/TheGreatWallofChinamedalinbox.jpg


Also, as pointed out by poconopenn in an earlier posting, there seems to be several variations of the proof silver medal (not including the mis-spelled variation). poconopenn makes this assessment based on the carved seal design on the reverse side of the medal. This just adds even more mystery to this elusive medallion.

Is anyone doing any serious investigation into the Great Wall medal to try to clear up the mysteries?


.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2014, 11:20:27 AM »
A bronze Great Wall of the "second (1987) version" was sold not long ago, which was packed the same way as yours. No capsule, a wooden box with the characters "People's Bank of China" on it.

But it is hard to say which packaging is more authentic. Yours and the bronze medal look like gifts from People's Bank of China. It is known that gifts from that period of time were not accompanied by COAs or serial numbers. But the recent sale looks like retail packaging, with an aftermarket COA and fancy outer box. It would be interesting if more owners of this medal describe their packaging.             

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2014, 11:49:26 AM »
fwang, your posts are always informative and thought provocing. Thank you for you valuable contribution to these discussions.

And yes, I agree, more owners should come forward so that more knowledge about the elusive Great Wall medallions can be known.



Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2014, 05:00:18 PM »
Question to knowledgeable members:

Why is this Great Wall medal:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-Mint-1985-Great-Wall-of-China-Medal-/221373815363?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item338ae85a43

so much more expensive than this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-Mint-1987-Great-Wall-60mm-China-coin-Medal-/321315653499?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item4acfe7c77b

Aren't both medals copper composition? Isn't the more expensive one minted in much larger quantity than the less expensive one?

Please help me understand why such a big price difference.

Thank you.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2014, 05:20:11 PM »
This seller acts on perceptions of value regarding the type 1 as being a premium image to collectors.  If you follow the string of sales over the years the Type 1 has always commanded a higher price then the Type 2 & Mr. Luckmoneyro is not oblivious to that fact.  The type 1 population had a very limited, possibly 10 to 20 medals minted, before the image was rejected & most left the mint unaccounted.  He's simply playing off the perceptions of those who find the type 1 version much more appealing as a collectable.
IMHO

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2014, 06:22:45 PM »
The type 1 is the 1985 medal? This one?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shanghai-Mint-1985-Great-Wall-of-China-Medal-/221373815363?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item338ae85a43

or the other one?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2014, 06:28:37 PM »
The mintage of the 1987 Bronze Great Wall is much bigger, at 48,300 pieces.

Plus the soft pouch of the 87 medal on the eBay listing is not right. The correct pouch is viewable here:http://www.997788.com/pr/detail_143_21483197.html. It is known that there are fakes of the 1987 bronze Great Wall. This eBay listing looks pretty suspicious. Look at the screen capture below.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2014, 09:37:31 PM »
The mintage of the 1987 Bronze Great Wall is much bigger, at 48,300 pieces.

Plus the soft pouch of the 87 medal on the eBay listing is not right. The correct pouch is viewable here:http://www.997788.com/pr/detail_143_21483197.html. It is known that there are fakes of the 1987 bronze Great Wall. This eBay listing looks pretty suspicious. Look at the screen capture below.

Yes, this eBay listed  bronze great wall medal is not genuine. The seller should know better, since he is a very knowledgeable expert in China Mint medals.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2014, 03:07:44 PM »
This listing of the 1987 Longevity has the same box and capsule as the retail box of the 87 Great Wall: http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1987-God-of-Longevity-/141204230520?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item20e06d9178. The toning looks similar, too.

Offline dc55232

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2014, 04:05:55 PM »
NGC specimens (with images only):

1982287-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;MEDAL PF 65 ULTRA CAMEO
3157481-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
3260210-007;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 66 ULTRA CAMEO
3300103-059;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 66
3306854-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;UNC Details
3307351-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 66
3324202-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 63 ULTRA CAMEO
3347564-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 64 ULTRA CAMEO
3357451-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 68
3357451-006;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 68
3402622-001;(1984) CHINA THE GREAT WALL ;MEDAL MS 64
3553424-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 67 ULTRA CAMEO
3612604-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
3684312-001;1984 CHINA THE GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;PF 68 ULTRA CAMEO
3692382-001;1984 CHINA THE GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;PF 63 ULTRA CAMEO
4153433-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 66 ULTRA CAMEO
4153438-002;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
2774666-004;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MS 66 BN
3563558-001;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MEDAL MS 66 BN
3563558-002;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MEDAL MS 69 BN
3688441-001;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MS 66 RB

Regards
dc55232

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2014, 10:04:14 PM »
NGC specimens (with images only):

1982287-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;MEDAL PF 65 ULTRA CAMEO
3157481-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
3260210-007;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 66 ULTRA CAMEO
3300103-059;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 66
3306854-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;UNC Details
3307351-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 66
3324202-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 63 ULTRA CAMEO
3347564-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 64 ULTRA CAMEO
3357451-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 68
3357451-006;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 68
3402622-001;(1984) CHINA THE GREAT WALL ;MEDAL MS 64
3553424-005;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 67 ULTRA CAMEO
3612604-003;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
3684312-001;1984 CHINA THE GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;PF 68 ULTRA CAMEO
3692382-001;1984 CHINA THE GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;PF 63 ULTRA CAMEO
4153433-001;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL ;PF 66 ULTRA CAMEO
4153438-002;(1984) 3.3oz CHINA GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;MS 69
2774666-004;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MS 66 BN
3563558-001;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MEDAL MS 66 BN
3563558-002;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MEDAL MS 69 BN
3688441-001;1987 CHINA THE GREAT WALL W/ CLOUDS BRONZE - 60MM;MS 66 RB

Regards
dc55232
Thanks for the list.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2014, 06:42:41 AM »
I had this one at one point, 3684312-001;1984 CHINA THE GREAT WALL SILVER - 60MM;PF 68 ULTRA CAMEO
It was the highest of the type 2's, a beautiful medal, with very limited mintage.
There is a resurgence of these medals today, more so then in the past.  They seem to have
brought back the traditional myths so well ingrained in the Chinese culture.  One filled with intrigue &
colorful drama.  Thank you for the list as well.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2014, 03:32:31 PM »
@ fwang,  Great work to put together that list!

@ kirin,  wow!...you owned what some consider the creme-de-la-creme of silver modern Chinese medals. Did you offer it at auction or as a private sale?



Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2014, 03:43:10 PM »
I'm confused. I looked at these 2 coins 3324202-00, 3692382-001  and they are both authenticated as 1984 minting. Is that accurate? I thought they were minted and released for sale in different years. What am I misunderstanding about these 2 versions?

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2014, 03:57:12 PM »
It is a beauty, but have another.  I sold it private, but the buyer saw it on eBay some time ago.   I actually offered it here with no interest, possibly the price.  I have offered some very rare items here but my price line is "healthy" so I sense just too much money in this "buyers market", I am just trying to hold the line, but the forces of the over whelming market at large are all prevailing.  Also no one really knows me here.  I sold an absolutely beautiful, OMP - 1992 - Gem (& I mean GEM) Proof Panda gold set the other day, hated to part with it but it went to a very good friend collector. Anyway, I thank you for the reply & talk soon.
Regards

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2014, 04:05:32 PM »
Hi , as I said in one of my previous emails, this was a same year run (1984).  The TYPE 1 was ditched due to the rejection of the design, which I would say did not have a very large population, due to the design being unsuitable for some reason.  They then re-tooled with this second design TYPE 2 (3692382-001) & ran a population of this type.  Numbers??  it's anyone's considered guess, but very very low populations for either of the design TYPEs.  The eBay listing claimed 68 for a population of the TYPE 2 design, BUT I would honestly say far fewer then that.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2014, 05:09:10 PM »
@ Kirin,   the medals/coins that you have sold are fantasy medals/coins to me...I could dream about them all day long and meanwhile you have already owned and sold them. Wow!

As for the Great Wall type 1 and type 2....I thought that they were released in different years....sorry I misunderstood that.

It was on one of these threads in this forum that someone (maybe KonaJim) was mentioning about the actual number of Great Wall medals that were released to the public and based on some figures that were mentioned, I believe that the number of "proof" finish silver Great Wall medals in the hands of the public may be about 24. That doesn't include matte silver Great Wall medals....there are probably more than 24 of that version released to the public.

I wonder how long it will take till the experts actually have a very good idea of how many really are out there.....5 years....25 years...more?


Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #150 on: February 27, 2014, 05:22:54 PM »
I would your guest is as expert as any.  the people that actually worked & minted out the pieces are long gone from 1984 era.  Maybe they will do a mathematical logarithm program to diagnose?  :confused1: 
Regards
 

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2014, 06:25:54 PM »

As for the Great Wall type 1 and type 2....I thought that they were released in different years....sorry I misunderstood that.


According to Huang Ruiyong, those were released in different years, first in 1982, second (the correct version) in 1987. You can refer to his silver medal star list for the dates.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2014, 06:31:24 PM »
Thank you for the info, why then has NGC labeled them both as 1984?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #153 on: February 27, 2014, 07:26:29 PM »
Yes, there is a lot of mystery still regarding the Great Wall medals. It seems for a long time, it was believed by the community of people who sought these rare medals that they were minted all in 1984 but perhaps the latest research shows that these elusive medals were actually minted not in 1984 but in 1982 and 1987 respectively. maybe the researchers at NGC do not have the latest information or maybe Huang Ruiyong is wrong. My guess is that Mr Huang Ruiyong has the correct information about the years these medals were minted and that NGC doesn't. That's my impression but I am only a novice.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #154 on: February 27, 2014, 07:51:22 PM »
Thank you for the info, why then has NGC labeled them both as 1984?

NGC got many dates wrong on the medals. They don't care whether they are restrikes from a different year. RAREMEDAL suggested they do not give dates if they are not sure.

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #155 on: February 27, 2014, 09:00:00 PM »
You are so correct Fwang. NGC must be shown documentation or examples that they have already graded to get dates and or varieties correct. This is especially true on medals as coins usually have dates. I don't think it is due to the fact that they don't care. They just don't have time to do research on every undated medal that gets submitted. The burden of proof falls on the submitter and it can quite a ride to get to the correct destination. My experience has been that they will listen to reason but proof of some sort is required.

Russ

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #156 on: February 27, 2014, 09:27:16 PM »
I am surprised that not more solid facts is known about these Great Wall medals. Afterall, they were minted in the 1980's, not the 1180's. There must be people still alive who have good knowledge of these medals....right?




Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #157 on: February 28, 2014, 01:45:39 AM »
mmisinglink, can you check again whether the characters on the seal of your medal are raised? From the photos, yours looks more like another 87 mirror medal with sunken characters, than the 82 mirror with raised characters.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #158 on: February 28, 2014, 11:26:33 AM »
@  fwang,  This medal is mine....I had it graded by NGC last year:  3692382-001

It is now in a safe deposit box, so not easy to get to. To me, it looks like the raised letters.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #159 on: February 28, 2014, 12:23:53 PM »
Congratulation!  I have been wondering about the outcome of last year's excellent discussion.  You must be very happy with the PF63 grade.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #160 on: February 28, 2014, 02:28:14 PM »
Yes, Sandac, happy and happily surprised. I still kick myself though....how could I be so ignorant. I suppose in hindsight, it's easy to see how we made such bad decisions. I assumed, until I found this forum, that the Great Wall medal I owned was merely a common trinket that had no more value than what I paid for it. I wasn't even sure it was real silver....never had it tested or anything like that.

I was planning on putting it up on eBay for under $100. Then, after a few years of casual curious searching on the internet with no success, I finally got a Google hit to China-Mint.info and to my surprise, there was a lot of excitement about medals that seemed to be very descriptive of mine. That's when I joined and made my first posts to this forum.

I am grateful to some of the members here who are so knowledgeable, so enthusiastic about Chinese medals, and most importantly to me, so helpful.

By a long margin, the Great Wall medal I own is my prized possession because of the great mysteries still surrounding these medals as well as my own personal interesting story about it.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #161 on: February 28, 2014, 02:54:08 PM »
@  fwang,  This medal is mine....I had it graded by NGC last year:  3692382-001

It is now in a safe deposit box, so not easy to get to. To me, it looks like the raised letters.
Thanks for the number. I am asking because I bought the recent eBay listing. Upon close examination, the characters are sunken. The pictures from you of your medal look like to have sunken characters, too. Besides, they match all the die features of the 87 medals known to have sunken characters, including mine. And they have the same wide strokes. I am really puzzled how yours is raised given all the same die characteristics.

NGC's pictures are misleading, to say the least. Compare the following two, which are from the same medal. One from Peter, the other from NGC.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #162 on: February 28, 2014, 02:56:53 PM »
@  fwang,  This medal is mine....I had it graded by NGC last year:  3692382-001

It is now in a safe deposit box, so not easy to get to. To me, it looks like the raised letters.
Here is the comparison of the pictures from you and from NGC respectively.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #163 on: February 28, 2014, 03:03:15 PM »
Yes, Sandac, happy and happily surprised. I still kick myself though....how could I be so ignorant. I suppose in hindsight, it's easy to see how we made such bad decisions. I assumed, until I found this forum, that the Great Wall medal I owned was merely a common trinket that had no more value than what I paid for it. I wasn't even sure it was real silver....never had it tested or anything like that.

I was planning on putting it up on eBay for under $100. Then, after a few years of casual curious searching on the internet with no success, I finally got a Google hit to China-Mint.info and to my surprise, there was a lot of excitement about medals that seemed to be very descriptive of mine. That's when I joined and made my first posts to this forum.

I am grateful to some of the members here who are so knowledgeable, so enthusiastic about Chinese medals, and most importantly to me, so helpful.

By a long margin, the Great Wall medal I own is my prized possession because of the great mysteries still surrounding these medals as well as my own personal interesting story about it.
I have heard/witnessed many such cases. Fortunately you did not sell your medal cheap. I am sure the seller of this listing did not expect the high price either for his "touring medals": http://www.ebay.com/itm/301099874767?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649. Not long ago, a seller listed a 86 Great Wall circulating coin set on ebay and got a BIN price for $4000. I am sure he was very happy, but the set is worth at least three times the BIN price.

There are such little treasures here and there. We all need to keep our eyes open.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2014, 03:05:29 PM »
Here is a comparison of the seals on the 82 mirror vs the 87 mirror. Characters on the 87 mirror have wider strokes, probably because they are sunken.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2014, 04:57:37 PM »
@fwang,  you clearly know a lot about these medals and your research work is excellent.

It's still not so easy for me to tell the difference in the characters from the NGC pictures vs other's pictures. After I look at the images for more than 30 seconds, my eyes start to not be able to make much sense of the dimensionality. In your last post, both images definitely seem to have characters that are raised but by no means would I be certain of this. It really does look like on my medal, in the NGC pics, the characters are casting a shadow, which would mean they are raised characters on my medal. But this could be just a strange play of light.

Even in the pictures that I took, my medal appears to have raised characters.

The reason I am convinced it does is because if you look at the border wall or frame of the seal....it is a high border I believe. It is light color compared to the non-character parts of the seal which are darker color. The characters are light color....exactly the same as the border wall or frame of the seal.

Does that make sense?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2014, 05:10:39 PM »
Also, looking at both medal images in your last post on page 11 fwang, in the image on the right, the raised characters are darker down the centerlines of the strokes and lighter at the edges except for the very outer edge which becomes very dark (and thinner) like an outline of each character. It's the same exact thing in the NGC picture of my medal; the character strokes are darker along the centerlines and lighter toward the edges except for the darker thin outline. It's the same....both raised characters in my opinion. If the image on the right depicts raised characters, the image on the left MUST also depict raised characters because the lighting on the strokes of the characters is identical (though not the same intensity which is understandable).

The image on the right is darker altogether and it looks like the characters are higher and more defined, less wear perhaps. The characters on the left image are also raised though not as high and defined as the one on the right. Perhaps it's because my medal's characters have some wear that the medal on the right does not.

The difference may also be caused at the time of minting. Maybe one was struck better than the other and that maybe accounts for the higher characters on one and more flat looking on the other?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2014, 05:56:48 PM »
Also, looking at both medal images in your last post on page 11 fwang, in the image on the right, the raised characters are darker down the centerlines of the strokes and lighter at the edges except for the very outer edge which becomes very dark (and thinner) like an outline of each character. It's the same exact thing in the NGC picture of my medal; the character strokes are darker along the centerlines and lighter toward the edges except for the darker thin outline. It's the same....both raised characters in my opinion. If the image on the right depicts raised characters, the image on the left MUST also depict raised characters because the lighting on the strokes of the characters is identical (though not the same intensity which is understandable).

The image on the right is darker altogether and it looks like the characters are higher and more defined, less wear perhaps. The characters on the left image are also raised though not as high and defined as the one on the right. Perhaps it's because my medal's characters have some wear that the medal on the right does not.

The difference may also be caused at the time of minting. Maybe one was struck better than the other and that maybe accounts for the higher characters on one and more flat looking on the other?
Thanks for your reply. When you have a chance, please take another look at your medal. It would be very strange for a medal of this small mintage to have both raised and sunken seal characters, which exhibit exactly the same die defects.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2014, 06:09:09 PM »
I will look at it at some point in the Spring or Summer.

I am convinced, as per the explanation of my analysis noted above, that there are sunken NO sunken characters at all on either of the two medals you have labelled "82" and "87". Both of these medals pictured have raised characters....it is obvious to me now as described in my previous comments. The way the light interacts with the characters is exactly the same on both medals pictured.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #169 on: March 02, 2014, 11:34:36 PM »
I will look at it at some point in the Spring or Summer.

I am convinced, as per the explanation of my analysis noted above, that there are sunken NO sunken characters at all on either of the two medals you have labelled "82" and "87". Both of these medals pictured have raised characters....it is obvious to me now as described in my previous comments. The way the light interacts with the characters is exactly the same on both medals pictured.
I got in touch with RAREMEDAL, who is an expert on Chinese medals. He said that all the Great Wall medals he had seen, whatever the version and material, all had sunken characters on the seal, including the 82 mirror and matte versions. Just for your information.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #170 on: March 03, 2014, 07:56:38 PM »
Hi fwang,   Really...that is very fascinating because the characters look raised in the images you posted. Thank you for asking this expert.

BTW, I just noticed this rare Great Wall medal auction just now:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1985-ANA-Convention-1-oz-silver-Proof-Medal-GREAT-WALL-original-holder-/231172668736?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35d2f6fd40

Is that the original Mint plastic sleeve that this medal is in or is that an after market sleeve?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #171 on: March 03, 2014, 08:06:19 PM »
Hi fwang,   Really...that is very fascinating because the characters look raised in the images you posted. Thank you for asking this expert.

BTW, I just noticed this rare Great Wall medal auction just now:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1985-ANA-Convention-1-oz-silver-Proof-Medal-GREAT-WALL-original-holder-/231172668736?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35d2f6fd40

Is that the original Mint plastic sleeve that this medal is in or is that an after market sleeve?
It looks like the original sleeve.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #172 on: March 03, 2014, 08:09:12 PM »
Hi fwang,   Really...that is very fascinating because the characters look raised in the images you posted. Thank you for asking this expert.

BTW, I just noticed this rare Great Wall medal auction just now:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-1985-ANA-Convention-1-oz-silver-Proof-Medal-GREAT-WALL-original-holder-/231172668736?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35d2f6fd40

Is that the original Mint plastic sleeve that this medal is in or is that an after market sleeve?
I was surprised to hear that even the 82 error medals had sunken characters. I showed him the pictures. He said that NGC pictures are sometimes misleading because of the lighting. He had never seen any Great Wall silver or brass or bronze medals with raised characters. He started to collect Great Wall medals around 2008.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #173 on: March 03, 2014, 10:03:13 PM »
He's probably accurate as he certainly has way more experience than I. This makes me curious about the characters because they definitely do appear to be raised in the couple of NGC images that  I looked at. I will have to remind myself that when I go to my safe deposit box next time, to look closely at the Great Wall medal seal.

I will report back on what I find then.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #174 on: March 07, 2014, 11:49:55 PM »
Here is the seal on my own medal.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2014, 01:03:46 AM »
I honestly can not tell from that picture if the characters are raised or not. In one moment when I look at it, the characters look sunken and in the next, they look raised. I suppose it's much easier to tell when actually viewing the coin in person because even from a high quality static image like that above, there is confusion in my view.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2014, 04:19:52 AM »
If you look at the image with the shiny points being raised, its easy to gain perpective.  
The points are shiny since they are raised, and have contact marks.


"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #177 on: March 16, 2014, 09:47:45 AM »
Thanks Hippanda. What you are saying is what I was assuming but that would mean that the characters are raised, yes?  But according to fwang,  "I got in touch with RAREMEDAL, who is an expert on Chinese medals. He said that all the Great Wall medals he had seen, whatever the version and material, all had sunken characters on the seal, including the 82 mirror and matte versions. Just for your information. "

So doesn't this conflict directly with the picture of fwang's medal? Because if the lighter shades represent higher points, then the characters are raised, not sunken.

Yes?
 

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #178 on: March 16, 2014, 01:06:23 PM »
No.



The shiny raised points are on the outside border of the characters, which are sunken.

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #179 on: April 07, 2014, 11:21:00 PM »
Here is a gold plated version. Any idea if it's real or fake?


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #180 on: April 07, 2014, 11:48:45 PM »
Fake.

Offline Gilmore

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Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #182 on: April 09, 2014, 07:38:52 AM »
I have spent the last several years looking for one, but by the time someone decides to sell, it was in the 5 figure range. No surprise there though, I sit on stuff too if I think it's undervalued :)

By the way, the Great Wall medal is a Chinese scenery issue, as are the pagodas (interesting mintage info here):

http://modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/MEDALS.html

The pagodas are still obtainable, last I heard.

Just my personal opinion...

I find that the buying back prices of the modernchinacoins.com to be very low. So low it is ridiculous.

I doubt anyone would want to sell to that website at those low prices. A reasonable price would be at least 8 times of the value in that website.

Offline NBM

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #183 on: April 09, 2014, 06:24:14 PM »
FWIW, I don't think that page has been updated in 4 years.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #184 on: April 09, 2014, 10:25:16 PM »
Just my personal opinion...

I find that the buying back prices of the modernchinacoins.com to be very low. So low it is ridiculous.

I doubt anyone would want to sell to that website at those low prices. A reasonable price would be at least 8 times of the value in that website.
The peak price in Sept, 2011 was about $15,000.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #185 on: April 16, 2014, 10:34:05 PM »
There are cycles in almost everything. I'll bet that there most certainly will be a resurgence of high price buying  of some of the key Chinese Scenery medals. If you have one or more already, I'd say hold onto it. If you don't, while the prices are consolidated, it may actually be a great time to seek out a key issue/date.

Offline mmissinglink

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Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #188 on: September 25, 2014, 05:03:28 PM »
NGC census reports show 7 proof silver medals graded in type 1 & type II.  The previous discussion shows 8 medals which I have attempted to summarize below.

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 proof

1982287-005 PF65UC
3324202-003 PF63UC
3347564-005 PF64UC

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type II proof

3260210-007 PF66UC
3553424-005 PF67UC
3684312-001 PF68UC
3692382-001 PF63UC
4153433-001 PF66UC

NGC census reports show 12 mint state silver medals graded in type 1.  The previous discussion shows 10 medals which I have attempted to summarize below.
 
Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 mint state

3157481-001 MS69
3300103-059 MS66
3306854-003 unc details
3307351-001 MS66
3357451-005 MS68
3357451-006 MS68
3402622-001 MS64
3612604-003 MS69
4153438-002 MS69
3822920-002 MS70

With time passing, it is evident that all of these silver medals are rare, whether type 1 proof, type II proof or type 1 mint state.

If forum members have resubmitted one or more of these medals for regrading, please share the information so that we can delete an NGC number from this summary.

If forum members own one or more of these medals, please consider submitting it to NCS for conservation and NGC for authentication and grading.  Rare medals have historical significance and should be preserved.  I know from personal experience that "bad things" happen to rare coins or medals which are not carefully protected from human carelessness and environmental damage.

Mark Bonke

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #189 on: September 26, 2014, 01:44:01 AM »
NGC census reports show 7 proof silver medals graded in type 1 & type II.  The previous discussion shows 8 medals which I have attempted to summarize below.

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 proof

1982287-005 PF65UC
3324202-003 PF63UC
3347564-005 PF64UC

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type II proof

3260210-007 PF66UC
3553424-005 PF67UC
3684312-001 PF68UC
3692382-001 PF63UC
4153433-001 PF66UC

NGC census reports show 12 mint state silver medals graded in type 1.  The previous discussion shows 10 medals which I have attempted to summarize below.
 
Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 mint state

3157481-001 MS69
3300103-059 MS66
3306854-003 unc details
3307351-001 MS66
3357451-005 MS68
3357451-006 MS68
3402622-001 MS64
3612604-003 MS69
4153438-002 MS69
3822920-002 MS70

With time passing, it is evident that all of these silver medals are rare, whether type 1 proof, type II proof or type 1 mint state.

If forum members have resubmitted one or more of these medals for regrading, please share the information so that we can delete an NGC number from this summary.

If forum members own one or more of these medals, please consider submitting it to NCS for conservation and NGC for authentication and grading.  Rare medals have historical significance and should be preserved.  I know from personal experience that "bad things" happen to rare coins or medals which are not carefully protected from human carelessness and environmental damage.

Mark Bonke
Thanks for the info, Mark. I have a 87 mirror that is ungraded. In terms of price gains, grading will not add much as these are much too rare and they often receive low grades because of the toning and white spots on them. So I am not in a hurry to have mine graded.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #190 on: September 26, 2014, 01:58:15 AM »
Mark,
I believe 3306854-003 unc details that you placed in the type 1 mint state catagory is in fact type 1 proof, judging by the mirrored background.

To the list of type II proof you should also add 2642540-001 which is the item being sold on eBay right now.

So your list should look like this:

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 proof

1982287-005 PF65UC
3324202-003 PF63UC
3347564-005 PF64UC
3306854-003 unc details

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type II proof

3260210-007 PF66UC
3553424-005 PF67UC
3684312-001 PF68UC
3692382-001 PF63UC
4153433-001 PF66UC
2642540-001 PF66UC

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 mint state

3157481-001 MS69
3300103-059 MS66
3307351-001 MS66
3357451-005 MS68
3357451-006 MS68
3402622-001 MS64
3612604-003 MS69
4153438-002 MS69
3822920-002 MS70

The last line, 3822920-002 MS70, is something new:  the slab has a peekaboo keyhole for serial number and the label shows it is #32.  Are all MS type 1 serialized?  I see NGC continue to label the MS coin as 3.3oz.  Should it be 103g (3.3 tael) instead?

I also want to provide a cross link here to a recent thread on the 1984 Great Wall: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10728.0

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #191 on: September 26, 2014, 11:52:25 PM »
Why is NGC census shows only 7 of Type II proof ever graded and no PF68UC ??? Am I missing something? Thank you.

1984 3.3OZ CHINA SILVER GREAT WALL COIN CENSUS
Description:    CHINA - MEDALS
Category:    WORLD COINS
Denomination:    SILVER
Year/Mint:    (1984) 3.3oz CHINA
Variety:    GREAT WALL
Designation:    PFUC
Total Graded:    7
Census Detail

    PRAG   G   VG   F   VF   40   45   50   53   55   58   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70
Base   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   1   1   1   2   2   0   0   0
* Star   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   



Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #192 on: September 28, 2014, 07:25:42 AM »
Sandac

Thanks for the corrections.  I agree.

I do not know if all of the mint state (type 1) medals have edge numbers.  If they do, it may be worthwhile for the owners to re-submit them for a new holder (showing the number) and a new label.  3822920-002 is a more interesting medal with the edge number shown and specified on the holder.

If the mint state medals have edge numbers, it seems as though the proof medals should be similarly numbered.  If any of the forum members have an ungraded medal, please look at it for an edge number and share the information with us.

Also, I have noticed over time that the NGC census numbers are not perfect.  Still, NGC is willing to correct information upon request.  If an owner of a coin requests correction, they will do so.  I am saying this from personal experience.  Sometimes, I have submitted pictures of a coin with a request and, at other times, I have just made the request.

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #193 on: September 28, 2014, 08:54:04 AM »
There are 3 versions or types of the Great Wall?   I looked at photos of page 1 but was told they were mislabled.   Could someone post photos of all 3?.........

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #194 on: September 28, 2014, 04:22:22 PM »
I looked at page 1 pictures and see the problem.

My type 1 proof has the great wall continuing to the bottom of the medal without any words in english or chinese.
My type 11 proof has the great wall cut off on the bottom by a straight line with writing on the top and bottom.
My type 1 mint state has the great wall continuing to the bottom of the medal, but the coin has a satin finish without any polished or reflective surfaces.

Hopefully, someone with great skills will add the pictures which you requested.

Mark Bonke

Offline NumiKat

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #195 on: September 28, 2014, 05:42:49 PM »
Mark,
I believe 3306854-003 unc details that you placed in the type 1 mint state catagory is in fact type 1 proof, judging by the mirrored background.

To the list of type II proof you should also add 2642540-001 which is the item being sold on eBay right now.

So your list should look like this:

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 proof

1982287-005 PF65UC
3324202-003 PF63UC
3347564-005 PF64UC
3306854-003 unc details

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type II proof

3260210-007 PF66UC
3553424-005 PF67UC
3684312-001 PF68UC
3692382-001 PF63UC
4153433-001 PF66UC
2642540-001 PF66UC

Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medal - type 1 mint state

3157481-001 MS69
3300103-059 MS66
3307351-001 MS66
3357451-005 MS68
3357451-006 MS68
3402622-001 MS64
3612604-003 MS69
4153438-002 MS69
3822920-002 MS70

The last line, 3822920-002 MS70, is something new:  the slab has a peekaboo keyhole for serial number and the label shows it is #32.  Are all MS type 1 serialized?  I see NGC continue to label the MS coin as 3.3oz.  Should it be 103g (3.3 tael) instead?

I also want to provide a cross link here to a recent thread on the 1984 Great Wall: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10728.0


Is this list of NGC verification #s complete? I see from the NGC census the following count totals:

(1984) 3.3 oz Great Wall MS:    66: 2, 67: 0, 68: 3, 69: 5, 70: 2

(1984) 3.3 oz Great Wall PFUC:   63: 1, 64: 1, 65: 1, 66: 2, 67: 2

1984 60 mm The Great Wall:  63: 1, 68: 2


So, going by the counts, it seems in your list of verification #s there should be at least one more MS 70 and also another PFUC 68 and a PFUC 67...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #196 on: September 29, 2014, 03:07:53 AM »
The list is incomplete.  

However, NGC census regarding 1984 Great Wall medal is also incomplete and contains erroneous entries.  Example:
1.  3402622-001 is pretty clearly a MS type 1 graded MS64, but the population report for (1984) 3.3 oz Great Wall MS shows no MS64 grade.  In the "Verify NGC certification" page for 3402622-001 ( http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3402622-001 ), it states that "Population data not available".  So it is pretty clear that 3402622-001 is not counted in the census.
2.  (1984) 3.3 oz Great Wall PFUC census contains both type I (example 3324202-003) and type II (example 2642540-001)
3.  1984 60 mm The Great Wall census contains type II (example 3684312-001, 3692382-001)

IMO,
1.  there are more graded coins than the census is showing and,  
2.  NGC still struggles with a consistent classification of type I and type II

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #197 on: September 29, 2014, 08:46:57 AM »
Does anyone on this forum have a good contact within the NGC organization?

If so, please contact them and request help.  Without doubt, the census reports should be changed so that a member is able to search for information about 1984 China Great Wall silver medals and see the current census for Proof type 1 and Proof type II medals separately.  With the low planned and surviving mintage, this will be important information to sellers, buyers and auction houses.

In the past, Michael Corley helped many forum members with issues concerning modern Chinese medals.  It is my impression that he has left NGC to pursue other interests.  I have not heard about his "replacement" (assuming anyone could replace him).

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #198 on: September 29, 2014, 08:59:51 AM »
Michael Corley is at NGC off and on.   I think you can still contact him.   Maybe Craig Fiumara?......

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #199 on: October 01, 2014, 10:04:18 PM »
Sandac

Thanks for the corrections.  I agree.

I do not know if all of the mint state (type 1) medals have edge numbers.  If they do, it may be worthwhile for the owners to re-submit them for a new holder (showing the number) and a new label.  3822920-002 is a more interesting medal with the edge number shown and specified on the holder.

If the mint state medals have edge numbers, it seems as though the proof medals should be similarly numbered.  If any of the forum members have an ungraded medal, please look at it for an edge number and share the information with us.

Also, I have noticed over time that the NGC census numbers are not perfect.  Still, NGC is willing to correct information upon request.  If an owner of a coin requests correction, they will do so.  I am saying this from personal experience.  Sometimes, I have submitted pictures of a coin with a request and, at other times, I have just made the request.

Mark Bonke
My 87 Great Wall mirror does not have an edge number.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #200 on: October 18, 2014, 06:13:23 PM »
Forgive me if I am just adding confusion to this topic but I thought that there were 4 varieties (not including the spelling error variety) of silver Great Wall medals; 1) "Plum Flower Great Wall" proof (mirror) strike, 2) "Plum Flower Great Wall" mint (satin) strike,  3) "Beacon Tower Great Wall" proof (mirror) strike, and 4) "Beacon Tower Great Wall" mint (satin) strike.



.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #201 on: October 18, 2014, 06:38:57 PM »
4) "Beacon Tower Great Wall" mint (satin) strike does not exist.

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #202 on: November 06, 2014, 02:35:45 PM »
I HAVE  TOTAL 8PC WITHIN 9YEARS,
ALL  1984 GREAT WALL 3.3OZ MATTE ONLY HAVE AG999 3两3 on the edge, never got any other series number, in china that  AG999 3两3 call number,  but now i have  1pc without any words on the edge,others all the same with matte with heros
100% sure nobody knows exactly mintage, chinese old medals always like that,  especially before 1987
like 1984 pagoda ,many different grams for set, 18g 20g 22g,

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #203 on: November 11, 2014, 11:24:40 AM »
!! WOW ALERT !!

Look at what is up for auction....a true gem rarity (not mine and I am not affiliated in any way with that seller)!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-china-great-wall-3-3tael-matte-PCGS-PR70-silver-medal-coin-rare-rare-/171507873738?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27eeaa77ca


EDIT:   I just realized that our own member Naomi01225 is the seller. What an amazing medal you are offering Naomi.



.


Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #204 on: November 11, 2014, 11:43:53 AM »
haha

anyone interested in just offer to me
still have pcgs 69 grade for sale
damin1927@hotmail.com


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #205 on: November 11, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
haha

anyone interested in just offer to me
still have pcgs 69 grade for sale
damin1927@hotmail.com



Do you actually own those coins listed at eBay?

I am asking this question due to the fact that majority of the pictures in your listings are copied from other dealers inside China. The attached pictures clearly show logo and watermark of other dealers.

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #206 on: November 11, 2014, 06:12:55 PM »
all of them are own coins just busy and lazy not time to take pics,so use my friend's pics,many other dealers also used my pics,and we have chinese website too,we have shops in australia and china,99% my buyers are very happy with my coins,u dont need to worry,i know many different logo pics are not very good to selling on ebay,i will take pics for
 all of them,

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #207 on: November 11, 2014, 09:10:07 PM »
all of them are own coins just busy and lazy not time to take pics,so use my friend's pics,many other dealers also used my pics,and we have chinese website too,we have shops in australia and china,99% my buyers are very happy with my coins,u dont need to worry,i know many different logo pics are not very good to selling on ebay,i will take pics for
 all of them,

Can you post the pictures of the reverse of the 8 listed coins attached in my previous post?


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #209 on: November 13, 2014, 12:36:01 PM »

naomi01225,

I just noticed that you have replaced your 1984 Great Wall silver medal PCGSPR70 listing with 1997 Haungdi silver medal.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-china-great-wall-3-3tael-matte-PCGS-PR70-silver-medal-coin-rare-rare-/171507873738?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27eeaa77ca

Please post pictures of both sides of 1984 Great wall PCGS PR70 in this thread for future reference.  This will be a major contribution to the members who collect this medal in this forum.
 
The procedure of uploading picture can be found in the following thread.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg46156#msg46156

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #210 on: November 13, 2014, 12:43:53 PM »
Hi
Everyone this medal has been sold today for 15000$ ,from germany

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2014, 04:12:13 PM »
According to records the 1984 Great Wall was minted in two types:
Type 1 (Plum Tree foreground) was minted (according to records) as both a Mirror Gem Proof & a BU Gem (business strike) Matte finish.
Fwang,  Poconopen,  Sandac, et al - What is your understanding on this confusion?  How could PCGS have graded a 1984 - Type 1 - Matte finish - 3 tael silver in a PF70DCAM???  Doesn't NGC have these Matte of type 1 - as mentioned in this thread by  (only matte 3 tael minted in 1984)  As recently seen on eBay from this seller Ivine (naomi ----)??   1984 - Great Wall - 3 tael - Type 2 is a Proof - EX. NGC:  3684312-001 (this one I had & sold).  I believe everyone has missed the point, the supposed - PCGS - PF70DCAM as pictured below is a mis-labeled slab, anyone else with comments?   

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #212 on: November 14, 2014, 04:15:35 PM »
Hi again;

 Here attached is the PCGS Verify photo(s) of this PCGS PF70DCAM .
Thanks for any & all input. 
Regards;
Kirin

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #213 on: November 14, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »
nobody knows this medal got how many types,
pcgs called this pr,but ngc called this ms,i think its different company standard,

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #214 on: November 14, 2014, 04:57:28 PM »
I mentioned this before, but it won't hurt to repeat here. If a coin or medal does not have a mirror finish, it does not mean that it is not proof. Matte proof is a type of proof. It is the result of proof coin making processes, such as specially prepared dies and blanks, higher tonnage of the press, slower striking speed, multiple strikes and careful handling of the finished products. Only the surface of the die is treated differently. It was totally wrong for NGC and PCGS to classify the commemorative coins and medals with matte finish as BU, which is business strike. They both used this wrong label at the beginning. Later on NGC used other labels such as SP (specimen strike), which is wrong again as dies and blanks for specimen strikes do not require special treatment. Now I think they have finally turned around, correctly labeling these as matte proof coins. So I don't think PCGS was mistaken in labeling this Great Wall medal as PR matte. The following picture shows that NGC has followed the same path.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #215 on: November 14, 2014, 05:03:30 PM »
There is no "DCAM" in the PCGS label. A matte proof cannot have mirror/cameo contrast.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #216 on: November 14, 2014, 06:34:45 PM »
Hello Fwang2450;
 The DCAM addition in my thread was a "force of habit" & is not the case with this matte finished "proofs", I mistakenly typed that.   
Regarding the NGC "PF69 Matte" example of the "Empress of China", the China Mint clearly states on their original COAs (I have 40 of these in OMP in stock) the condition as BU not PF.   I don't know why NGC would deviate from the China Mint's own clearly stated COAs?  Maybe someone out there does?
According to pricepedia, the 1984 - Great Wall - type 1 "Plum Tree" versions were minted in both Gem Proof mirror & BU, matte finishes.
Kirin

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #217 on: November 14, 2014, 11:00:39 PM »
naomi01225,

I just noticed that you have replaced your 1984 Great Wall silver medal PCGSPR70 listing with 1997 Haungdi silver medal.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-china-great-wall-3-3tael-matte-PCGS-PR70-silver-medal-coin-rare-rare-/171507873738?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27eeaa77ca

Please post pictures of both sides of 1984 Great wall PCGS PR70 in this thread for future reference.  This will be a major contribution to the members who collect this medal in this forum.
 
The procedure of uploading picture can be found in the following thread.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg46156#msg46156


I definitely look forward to seeing those Obverse and Reverse pictures of the PR70 Great Wall. Such a rarity!

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #218 on: November 14, 2014, 11:09:05 PM »
Hi Kirin,

For Type II, the consensus is that the medal was not made in 1984, but in 1987. NGC makes a lot of mistakes on dates. A couple of days ago I saw the 1990 silver goldfish (with two fish on the reverse) labeled by NGC as (1984). RAREMEDAL brought this issue up time and again.

Frank

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #219 on: November 14, 2014, 11:40:24 PM »
According to “Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial” (published by China Gold Coin Inc., June 1988), this great wall medal was minted at 1984 and identified as proof condition with mintage of 68.  Attached is the picture of this medal posted in the book. The picture show the surface is in a matte form. Please note that all NGC and PCGS graded Great Wall matte or mirror medal is not exactly identical to the design in the picture in the book (see marked area). Furthermore, the matte version also different from the mirror version in the same marked area. Mystery is continued.

It is also my understanding that matte version has coin # engraved at the edge of the medal. If not, the medal is questionable. There are many very high quality fake matte version in the market place. I will not be surprised that more fake/restrike matte medals in the market place than the genuine 1984 matte medal.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #220 on: November 15, 2014, 08:16:05 AM »
davidt3251  Here are the PCGS photos of that PCGS PF70 we are all referring to.  It was also posted back in the last few threads of this conversation.

Poconopen - Really I honestly have to wonder IF there are any Matte finish examples that can actually be sifted out of the long line of re-strikes & out right unauthorized examples.  Seems PCGS & NGC in their "zeal" to look professional & appeal to the extensive Chinese market (for sales) may have over reached in their efforts to look like they would have a piece of the definitive word.  The mattes, to me, are all questionable, so many I have examined have just too many altering variations to know which are genuine & which are suspect.  With PCGS/NGC "slabbing away" with changing monikers from MS to PF, where would one find a semblance of genuine-ness?  If there are so many questions as to what, which, what type(s)/year & whether PF or BU, the whole exercise could prove quite disaffecting, nullifying any trust in authenticity of these Matte versions.  The Mirrored proofs are well established.  Until then regarding the Matte finished 3 taels , I would find the submissions to all be "questionable authenticity".  I wonder if there are any measurable, consistent grouping variations in weights, which would classify these matte examples?  Anyway what a challenge for those who pride themselves in being right (aka NGC/PCGS).       

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
I would humbly suggest that this PCGS - Proof 70  is not from the original Matte mintage struck in 1984.
JMHO
Kirin

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #222 on: November 15, 2014, 11:40:59 AM »
davidt3251  Here are the PCGS photos of that PCGS PF70 we are all referring to.  It was also posted back in the last few threads of this conversation.

Poconopen - Really I honestly have to wonder IF there are any Matte finish examples that can actually be sifted out of the long line of re-strikes & out right unauthorized examples.  Seems PCGS & NGC in their "zeal" to look professional & appeal to the extensive Chinese market (for sales) may have over reached in their efforts to look like they would have a piece of the definitive word.  The mattes, to me, are all questionable, so many I have examined have just too many altering variations to know which are genuine & which are suspect.  With PCGS/NGC "slabbing away" with changing monikers from MS to PF, where would one find a semblance of genuine-ness?  If there are so many questions as to what, which, what type(s)/year & whether PF or BU, the whole exercise could prove quite disaffecting, nullifying any trust in authenticity of these Matte versions.  The Mirrored proofs are well established.  Until then regarding the Matte finished 3 taels , I would find the submissions to all be "questionable authenticity".  I wonder if there are any measurable, consistent grouping variations in weights, which would classify these matte examples?  Anyway what a challenge for those who pride themselves in being right (aka NGC/PCGS).       

Did naomi01225 take those photos? I dont see any with the slab.

A long time ago I did business with naomi01225.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #223 on: November 15, 2014, 11:58:37 AM »
Hi & no these are downloads from PCGS website coin verification.  They are the obverse & reverse of this
PR70  sold to Germany for $15,000.00 - from naomi01225
Kirin

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #224 on: November 15, 2014, 12:48:30 PM »
Unfortunately, the pictures at NGC and PCGS websites are not good enough to see the 3 dimensional details. Hopefully, naomi01225 will come back to post detail pictures of matte version to contribute our discussions since he claimed to own both PCGS PR69 and 70 of this matte version in his posting dated Nov 11.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #225 on: November 15, 2014, 02:12:32 PM »
Yes, that would be great, but any photos I have ever seen on his eBay pages are far tooooo tiny to actually
have a high resolution examination.
Best to you;
Kirin

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #226 on: November 16, 2014, 06:59:20 PM »
Fwang & Poconopen:
                       Your comment regarding the Type 2 - 3 tael Great Wall: " For Type II, the consensus is that the medal was not made in 1984, but in 1987. NGC makes a lot of mistakes on dates."
                         Then wouldn't the example be found in the “Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial” (published by China Gold Coin Inc., June 1988)?  That Poconopen provided as a reference?  Whether the the Great Wall 3 tael - Type 2 was minted in 1984 or 1987?   I would wonder why the 1988 publication done by the China Gold Coin Corp. would not have the successive chronological record that would place the Type 2 Great Wall - 3 tael a stated Year?   Anyone, especially Poconopen (who has the catalog)??
Thanks Much;
Kirin

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #227 on: November 16, 2014, 08:55:25 PM »
just a quick note I have done a lot of business with naomi01225   .............not recently but in the past quite a bit mostly coins to resell hundreds of colorized dragons 2012 when they where the rage ..   he is an honest guy and does what he says he is going to ..i would PP gift him 5 to 10k for coins at a clip he would always deliver as described with no issue just an FYI

Offline Russ 736

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #228 on: November 16, 2014, 09:21:24 PM »
I would add my support of naomi1255 to that of jc888888888. I have done a lot of business with him and have always found him to be honest, fair and a man of his word.

Russ

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #229 on: November 16, 2014, 09:59:17 PM »
Fwang & Poconopen:
                       Your comment regarding the Type 2 - 3 tael Great Wall: " For Type II, the consensus is that the medal was not made in 1984, but in 1987. NGC makes a lot of mistakes on dates."
                         Then wouldn't the example be found in the “Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial” (published by China Gold Coin Inc., June 1988)?  That Poconopen provided as a reference?  Whether the the Great Wall 3 tael - Type 2 was minted in 1984 or 1987?   I would wonder why the 1988 publication done by the China Gold Coin Corp. would not have the successive chronological record that would place the Type 2 Great Wall - 3 tael a stated Year?   Anyone, especially Poconopen (who has the catalog)??
Thanks Much;
Kirin

Just my speculation. The version 2 of proof great wall medal might be made by Shanghai Mint without the authorization of the People’s Bank of China. The book mentioned previously was actually published by the People’s Bank of China/China Gold Coin Inc. The book only covers all coins and medals authorized by the People’s Bank of China.

Version 2 also has the same defects in seal (reverse) as 1987 brass great wall medal.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #230 on: November 16, 2014, 10:21:50 PM »
I was searching for clear picture of great wall medal and found these two great wall brass medals with completely different design in reverse. Both were made at Shanghai Mint.  Please note that 殷国清 is the best known collector of Chinese medals inside China, may be in the world.

http://www.coin001.com/museum.php?action=myshowdata_show&uid=8461&showdata_id=991

http://www.coin001.com/museum.php?action=myshowdata_show&uid=8461&showdata_id=1000

Here is one of 殷国清 blog suggesting many fake 1984 matte great wall medals in the market place and picture of fake medal. In addition, he also suggested that matte version was restrike of mirror version, but did not mention the year.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4fe5fde30102e8db.html

Here is his matte version of proof great wall medal.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4fe5fde30100o67v.html

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #231 on: November 17, 2014, 12:19:41 AM »
Poconopenn, an article by Liu Hong sheds light on the early Great Wall brass medals. The one in your post for the People's Bank of China is mentioned in there. It is supposed to be the first one in the series:
http://www.taodocs.com/p-6201076.html

The mismatched Great Wall with the Grapes/Insects was auctioned off on Oct. 12 this year at ePama:

http://www.epama.net/v2/Detail.do?Catelog_ID=47471


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2014, 12:28:02 AM »
What was the final sale price of the grapes & leaves reverse Great Wall medal? I don't understand how to read Chinese language.




Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #233 on: November 17, 2014, 01:12:06 AM »
What was the final sale price of the grapes & leaves reverse Great Wall medal? I don't understand how to read Chinese language.




It was passed as the starting bid was high, at RMB30,000.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #234 on: November 17, 2014, 02:16:16 PM »
I translated RAREMEDAL's post on varieties of brass Plum flower Great Wall medals, here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10933.msg63735#msg63735

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #235 on: November 17, 2014, 02:33:02 PM »
Just my speculation. The version 2 of proof great wall medal might be made by Shanghai Mint without the authorization of the People’s Bank of China. The book mentioned previously was actually published by the People’s Bank of China/China Gold Coin Inc. The book only covers all coins and medals authorized by the People’s Bank of China.

Version 2 also has the same defects in seal (reverse) as 1987 brass great wall medal.
The seal of the 87 Beacon Tower Great Wall (type/version II) is in a better condition on the stained copper medal than on the silver medal, an indication that the silver medal was made later than the stained copper one, which was produced in 1987. See the pictures below. This is in keeping with the tradition of Shanghai Mint, which produced brass/copper medals before silver ones. It is likely that the silver version was struck as "afterthoughts", to be used as gifts, without going through the authorization of the PBOC.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #236 on: November 22, 2014, 03:54:03 PM »
fwang, if it's true that the silver 1987 Great Wall medals may not have been authorized by the PBoC and the bronze medals were, would that mean that there might be original sales brochures or catalogs from the Shanghai Mint which depicted the bronze medals but not the silver?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #237 on: November 22, 2014, 11:11:23 PM »
fwang, if it's true that the silver 1987 Great Wall medals may not have been authorized by the PBoC and the bronze medals were, would that mean that there might be original sales brochures or catalogs from the Shanghai Mint which depicted the bronze medals but not the silver?
The stained copper (not exactly bronze) 87 Great Wall is listed in catalogs, but not from Shanghai Mint.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #238 on: November 23, 2014, 01:05:18 AM »
Hi fwang, thanks for clarifying. So are there any bronze Great Wall 1984 and 1987 medals or are all the non silver medals considered copper? Are these catalogs you are referring to, sales catalogs with prices?  If yes, what prices were they selling for back in 1987 and did the catalog note mintage numbers for these copper medals?



.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #239 on: November 23, 2014, 10:43:24 AM »
Hi fwang, thanks for clarifying. So are there any bronze Great Wall 1984 and 1987 medals or are all the non silver medals considered copper? Are these catalogs you are referring to, sales catalogs with prices?  If yes, what prices were they selling for back in 1987 and did the catalog note mintage numbers for these copper medals?



.
The 87 copper Great Wall is listed in a catalog by the Numismatic Society of Shanghai Mint. It is not a mint catalog for sales by Shanghai Mint, as it lists medals from other mints/manufacturers. It is a summary of large size copper medals up till 1997, for the benefits of collectors. I am attaching a photo of its cover. There is no price info in it, but it does list the designer, year, mintage and the mint.

The 1987 Great Wall copper medal has a mintage of 48300, according to the catalog.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #240 on: November 24, 2014, 01:19:14 AM »
Thank you fwang. this must be a great resource book but there is probably no English version of it, right?


.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #241 on: November 24, 2014, 09:53:02 AM »
Thank you fwang. this must be a great resource book but there is probably no English version of it, right?


.
It is in Chinese only.

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #242 on: December 09, 2014, 12:09:31 PM »
I attended the coin show in Macau last weekend (December 5-7, 2014).  One of the major Chinese coin dealers who specializes in modern Chinese medals participated in this event.  In his case, I saw a silver matte Great Wall medal in an NGC holder.  I asked to see it.  Immediately, I looked at the edge.  I was looking for a stamped number or the designation showing silver content and weight.  [These two matte versions/varieties have been discussed in this coin forum].  Instead, I saw in the 6 o'clock position a four digit number starting in a zero and ending in a zero.  The two numbers in the middle were a 5 and a 6 in a mirror image.  These numbers were not hand-stamped on the edge after the medal was produced.  I immediately asked the dealer about this.  He was unaware of the number on the edge.  He indicated there are many matte versions/varieties of this medal.  Treat this as a warning.  This medal was not inexpensive.  The dealer was asking US $4000 for it.  Is a silver matte Great Wall medal in a 69 holder with this particular edge detail worth this amount of money?  When was it struck?  Mintage?

I do not have any answers to these questions.  I just wanted the forum members to be aware of the fact that this issue is much more complicated than I had assumed after reading prior comments from the Chinese experts who participate in this coin forum. 

Mark Bonke   

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #243 on: December 09, 2014, 12:18:04 PM »
he took off from ngc holder to showed ur edge?
if in holder hard to see,i took off a ngc ms66 to checked the edge,no number on that,only ag999 3两3 on it
too many versions nobody knows exactly mintage

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #244 on: December 09, 2014, 01:59:16 PM »
The silver matte Great Wall medal was in an NGC oversized holder with a clear plastic ring surrounding the coin or medal.  In appropriate light with magnification, it was easy to look at the edge of the medal and see this strange mirror-image four-digit number.  NGC did not create an opening in the clear plastic and NGC did not show this number in the title.

Mark Bonke 


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #245 on: February 01, 2015, 02:13:12 PM »
Thank you Mark for the info.

Clearly, there needs to be more investigation and research into these incredible 1980's Great Wall medals because there are still apparent discrepancies.

Was the NGC holder the "EdgeView" type? I really like the approach that they have made to create a slab in which the edge can be seen (even if with a loupe and strong light).



.

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #246 on: February 02, 2015, 02:50:41 AM »
I do not think that NGC has edge-view holders for the larger coins and medals.  Instead, the NGC over-size holders have a clear ring which holds the coin or medal.  Sometimes, a small area is carved out of this clear ring to expose the number on the edge.

Mark Bonke

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #247 on: February 17, 2015, 06:36:56 PM »
Thanks Mark...in the future, I hope that these TPG's come to realize that edge view is important in all sizes.




Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #248 on: March 02, 2015, 12:30:00 PM »
A recent listing on Ebay, #1116 1141 2065, involves a 1984 Great Wall silver medal, NGC PF66UC.  I do not know how to import pictures of the medal & I do not know how to link the listings to this coin forum.  After years of discussion, it is worth looking at the pictures of this medal.

Disclosure.  It is not my listing.  It is not my medal.  I do not know the Ebay seller.  I do not even own a silver Type II Great Wall medal.  So, I am not trying to help sell this medal.  I am just adding to our long term discussion of these medals.
 
Mark Bonke

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #249 on: March 02, 2015, 12:39:00 PM »
A recent listing on Ebay, #1116 1141 2065, involves a 1984 Great Wall silver medal, NGC PF66UC.  I do not know how to import pictures of the medal & I do not know how to link the listings to this coin forum.  After years of discussion, it is worth looking at the pictures of this medal.

Disclosure.  It is not my listing.  It is not my medal.  I do not know the Ebay seller.  I do not even own a silver Type II Great Wall medal.  So, I am not trying to help sell this medal.  I am just adding to our long term discussion of these medals.
 
Mark Bonke
This is a 1987 Beacon Tower Great Wall mirror, not the 1982/84 Plum Flower Great Wall mirror. It has been on eBay for quite a while.

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #250 on: March 02, 2015, 01:22:59 PM »
Thanks for your information. 

I have not thought about these medals for awhile.  I just remember the silver medals from 1984 (Type I Proof & Type I Matte)(Type II Proof). 

Are you saying there is also a silver medal from 1987?  Also, are you saying the silver medal in the listing is from 1987?

I better go back and read these 17 pages of comments before I post anything again. 

Mark Bonke

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #251 on: March 02, 2015, 02:16:12 PM »
Thanks for your information. 

I have not thought about these medals for awhile.  I just remember the silver medals from 1984 (Type I Proof & Type I Matte)(Type II Proof). 

Are you saying there is also a silver medal from 1987?  Also, are you saying the silver medal in the listing is from 1987?

I better go back and read these 17 pages of comments before I post anything again. 

Mark Bonke
The date of 1984 on the slab is certainly wrong. It is from 1987. Instead of using "Type I" and "Type II", which is confusing, I and a number of other Great Wall medal collectors have been following the Chinese conventions, calling the 1984 "Type I"  "Plum Flower Great Wall" and the 1987 "Type II" "Beacon Tower Great Wall". These are taken from the design elements in the foreground on the medal.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #252 on: April 17, 2015, 10:49:48 PM »
I think that it is smart to use that naming convention fwang...makes discussing these rare Great Wall medals less confusing.

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #253 on: September 07, 2018, 05:53:24 PM »
Long beach show treasure found....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #254 on: September 07, 2018, 05:56:57 PM »
Good score!   How was the show?...

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #255 on: September 07, 2018, 06:06:27 PM »
seeing many familiar faces and I fell buying activities are strong...

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #256 on: September 07, 2018, 10:51:56 PM »
Long beach show treasure found....
Nice find!

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #257 on: September 07, 2018, 10:57:42 PM »
Nice find!
I know you are an expert of Chinese medals. Can you tell me what TYPE this one is?  Are there any reliable references(version, mintage, etc.) for Great Wall Medals?

Thank you,

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #258 on: September 08, 2018, 12:43:53 AM »
I know you are an expert of Chinese medals. Can you tell me what TYPE this one is?  Are there any reliable references(version, mintage, etc.) for Great Wall Medals?

Thank you,
This is Type I, or Plum Flower Great Wall. I am not aware of any official references to the versions and mintage.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #259 on: September 08, 2018, 08:03:48 PM »
Long beach show treasure found....

Wow....every time I see one of the Type 1 or Type 2 Great Wall proof medals I am very excited...both versions such impressive medals.

What was the asking price? Did it sell? It looks to be in superior condition.

What is the name of the seller / dealer?

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #260 on: September 10, 2018, 05:00:21 PM »
What are the strange looking circles on the great wall side of the medal?  Is this some problem with the photography?  If so, why are there no circles shown on the picture of the other side of the medal?

Does this proof Great Wall medal have a number on the edge? 


Mark Bonke

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #261 on: September 10, 2018, 05:31:16 PM »
What are the strange looking circles on the great wall side of the medal?  Is this some problem with the photography?  If so, why are there no circles shown on the picture of the other side of the medal?

Does this proof Great Wall medal have a number on the edge? 


Mark Bonke

Hello Mark,

Not sure how and why these circles formed. They are on only one side but not on the other.  Since this piece was issued without a protective capsule, I guess the circles are caused by storage environment. From my experience, these can be easily removed by NCS professional Conservation.

No, there is no word or number on the edge.   

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #262 on: September 10, 2018, 07:56:23 PM »
Initially, I looked at the photos just at a glance and thought the circles were just some sort of image watermark.

But now that I am looking at the image for more than 2 seconds, I'm fairly certain I know exactly what caused those rings...bubble wrap.

The bubble wrap was probably used in order to help protect the medal from bouncing around inside the case during transit and maybe it was even left in there for a long period of time.

It's not recommended to used bubble wrap to store proof silver items for any extended period of time, especially if the area where the item will be stored will be hot. Many plastics degrade more quickly when they are exposed to high heat.

Bubble wrap is definitely the culprit of those rings if you want my opinion.

I suppose NCS can do a very good job of removing those rings....I suppose if they can't, no one that we can turn to (afford) can do it.


Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #263 on: September 11, 2018, 12:52:05 AM »
Initially, I looked at the photos just at a glance and thought the circles were just some sort of image watermark.

But now that I am looking at the image for more than 2 seconds, I'm fairly certain I know exactly what caused those rings...bubble wrap.

The bubble wrap was probably used in order to help protect the medal from bouncing around inside the case during transit and maybe it was even left in there for a long period of time.

It's not recommended to used bubble wrap to store proof silver items for any extended period of time, especially if the area where the item will be stored will be hot. Many plastics degrade more quickly when they are exposed to high heat.

Bubble wrap is definitely the culprit of those rings if you want my opinion.

I suppose NCS can do a very good job of removing those rings....I suppose if they can't, no one that we can turn to (afford) can do it.



I agree with your analysis. This medal must have been stored with a bubble wrap on top by original owner for a very long time. Hopefully NCS can remove these residues from surface and save a piece of history.   

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #264 on: October 08, 2018, 10:27:20 PM »
Warning.  I purchased Lot #2420 at the Spink's auction in Hong Kong in August of 2018.  This lot included four medals, with a GBCA graded Great Wall silver medal (type 1)(satin finish)(68 grade).  I sent this medal to NCS and NGC for minimal conservation, authentication, grading and encapsulation.  Today, I received the results.  QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.  Ouch!  My money is lost.  I made a mistake.  I looked at it carefully during the preview in Hong Kong and still made a mistake.  Hopefully, you will learn from my warning and not make a similar mistake.

Mark Bonke

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #265 on: October 08, 2018, 11:12:26 PM »
Spinks should take it back, there is an implicit guaranty of authenticity.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #266 on: October 08, 2018, 11:22:48 PM »
Warning.  I purchased Lot #2420 at the Spink's auction in Hong Kong in August of 2018.  This lot included four medals, with a GBCA graded Great Wall silver medal (type 1)(satin finish)(68 grade).  I sent this medal to NCS and NGC for minimal conservation, authentication, grading and encapsulation.  Today, I received the results.  QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.  Ouch!  My money is lost.  I made a mistake.  I looked at it carefully during the preview in Hong Kong and still made a mistake.  Hopefully, you will learn from my warning and not make a similar mistake.

Mark Bonke


I'm really sorry to hear this. Can you post pics or NGC cert numbers so that we can all learn more about this?

Thank you.

Offline mcc168

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #267 on: October 09, 2018, 12:30:31 AM »
Warning.  I purchased Lot #2420 at the Spink's auction in Hong Kong in August of 2018.  This lot included four medals, with a GBCA graded Great Wall silver medal (type 1)(satin finish)(68 grade).  I sent this medal to NCS and NGC for minimal conservation, authentication, grading and encapsulation.  Today, I received the results.  QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.  Ouch!  My money is lost.  I made a mistake.  I looked at it carefully during the preview in Hong Kong and still made a mistake.  Hopefully, you will learn from my warning and not make a similar mistake.

Mark Bonke
Send it back to Spink's. They should take it back, there is an implicit guaranty of authenticity. +1

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #268 on: October 09, 2018, 12:10:07 PM »
Greetings

Thanks for your suggestions.

This morning, I reviewed the Terms and Conditions of the Spinks Auction which was held in Hong Kong on August 9, 2018.  Section 5.9 provides the rules for "Refund in the case of Forgery," including a requirement of written notice within 7 days of the auction and return of the item within 14 days of the auction in the same condition as of the auction date. 

Yesterday, I was informed of the problem when NGC completed its work.  I will receive my various submissions by mail next week.  I have missed the 7 day and 14 day requirements.  I will receive the item back in a "body bag" and not in the original GBCA holder.  Spinks will have disbursed funds to the consignor/seller long ago.

I will communicate with Kelvin Cheung, the auctioneer, and the Spinks office manager in Hong Kong about this disaster.  Will I receive a refund for this lot or this part of the lot?  I will let you know after my problem "plays out" and I know the answer.  Do not hold your breath, expecting a positive result.

Often, I have stressed the need for collectors and investors to preview lot items before the auction.  In this case, I traveled far, I held the GBCA holder in my hand and I looked at this medal as carefully as possible.  I already own two of these satin silver medals in NGC/PCGS holders and am very familiar with the design and overall look.  I could not test the weight.  I could not preview the edge (the third side of the medal).  I thought it was slightly toned on one side and I thought it was overgraded due to a couple of small marks on one side of the medal.  Otherwise, I thought it was authentic.  I was wrong.  My preview of this item failed. 

Please remember to be very, very careful when making buying decisions.  Then, once the decision to purchase is made,  submit your coins and medals to NGC for authentication (and grading). 

Be a better collector than I have been.  Learn from my mistakes to avoid your own mistakes.

Mark Bonke

Offline r3globe

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #269 on: October 09, 2018, 01:10:31 PM »
I am sorry to hear about your predicament. However, If it were me, I would be very firm with Spink's about the importance of buyer's confidence in dealing with a reputable auction house. I do believe they should refund you for it.

"Questionable authenticity" does not mean definitively that it is a fake. I am willing to bet that the same medal will grade as authentic if it is sent later to NGC or PCGS, especially if it is outside the GBCA holder. I am willing to speculate that the GBCA might have biased their judgement a little!

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #270 on: October 09, 2018, 05:04:03 PM »
I am already in a deep hole with this silver matte Great Wall medal.  I certainly would not re-submit it to NGC or submit it to PCGS, hoping for a more favorable opinion.  I have a tendency to break non-authentic coins or medals in half and sell them for their silver content.   If Spinks does not want this medal back, I will destroy it.

Mark Bonke

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #271 on: October 09, 2018, 05:49:42 PM »
So sorry to hear about your misfortune, I’ve Bought my fair share of fake and questionable coins/medals. Terrible feeling... But before you cut it in half I will offer you double melt.  I think we might even live in the same town.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #272 on: October 09, 2018, 05:59:10 PM »
Would like to have it for reference purposes. I’ve been searching for this one for some time. Considering the fact that you own 2 and still got duped really makes me re consider buying non ngc/pcgs. Unless it’s crazy cheap of course.

Offline r3globe

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #273 on: October 09, 2018, 06:05:54 PM »
it is a bad situation to be in and the best outcome is for spink to take it back. But, I dare to speculate it is authentic. I have bought and graded many many medals and the older ones have variations that mislead TPG. Best of luck with it.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #274 on: October 09, 2018, 06:25:22 PM »
Hi Mark, here's how I see it...Spink is definitely within their legal purview to refuse to refund you even a penny because of their stated auction guidelines (and the fact that you are way outside the time frames they have in writing). They could and likely would argue that because you bid that this necessarily means you agreed (implicitly or not) to their terms.

I'm not at all saying that you shouldn't communicate with them to let them know what happened, it's just that, as you already suspect, they will likely not refund you.

Also, I don't know if Spink or any auction house accepts PCGS/ANACS/NGC's judgement as the definitive word on whether or not a coin/medal is in fact genuine. I don't even think these TPG's can guarantee that their evaluation is definitive proof....although I'd suspect that NGC's graders are highly qualified in determining the authenticity of that type of medal since they have graded several and they generally are very thorough in their evaluations.

A final thought......I know that some people don't like buying on eBay.....but if nothing else, what eBay has going for it that is unmatched by any auction house is it's Buyer protection. I've had more than one time where I purchased coins on eBay and after sending them in for grading, received a couple back about 2 months later that were genuine but were not in a condition that was described in the auction. And yet, I was able to get a refund for the full sale price and shipping costs. I was not able to recover grading costs but at least I got a full refund on purchase price.....long after the transactions ended.

Mark, you have taken this all in stride and I do appreciate very much that you've shared this experience with this community....it is a good lesson to be learned for all of us.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #275 on: October 09, 2018, 06:28:04 PM »
Would like to have it for reference purposes. I’ve been searching for this one for some time. Considering the fact that you own 2 and still got duped really makes me re consider buying non ngc/pcgs. Unless it’s crazy cheap of course.

I think having a reference piece (that is suspected by NGC to be of questionable authenticity) is actually a good suggestion.


This latest account by Mark, in my view, adds even more interest to the Great Wall medal story; like is NGC wrong? Are there people making fakes of these highly sought after medals? My guess is likely yes.....there probably are people making fakes since genuine pieces fetch very significant premiums on the market when they sell.

I've even heard from a reputable source that there are fakes circulating of the bronze/copper versions....so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that there are fakes being made of the far more rare silver versions.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #276 on: October 09, 2018, 11:36:31 PM »
I am already in a deep hole with this silver matte Great Wall medal.  I certainly would not re-submit it to NGC or submit it to PCGS, hoping for a more favorable opinion.  I have a tendency to break non-authentic coins or medals in half and sell them for their silver content.   If Spinks does not want this medal back, I will destroy it.

Mark Bonke

Hi Mark, just a moment ago, I got a response to an email I sent a fellow Chinese medal enthusiast regarding your situation.

He stated that he knows of several examples where a Chinese medal came back "questionable authenticity" then after re-submission they got a number grade. The re-submission, in each instance was accompanied with different approaches based on the different situation.

The point being....DO NOT destroy or sell those medals....there may be hope for an actual grade with a re-submission but you really should seek out the advice of someone like Clark Smith of www.sfpandas.com.

Good luck.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #277 on: October 11, 2018, 12:58:58 AM »
I would be willing to submit it for you to NGC or PCGS.  I think it will grade fine, but first, try to get a refund from spinks.

Offline bonke

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #278 on: October 11, 2018, 08:12:49 AM »
Arif

Thanks for the offer.

The medal is still in transit from Sarasota.  I should receive it in a week or so. 

I did send an email to Spink's office in Hong Kong about my purchase.  At this point, no one has responded.  The auctioneer and office staff are very friendly people and I will be surprised if they do not respond to my inquiry.  Still, I will also be very surprised if they refund $$$ at this point in time. 

Do you think it matters who submits an item to the grading houses?  As a collector, I always think they treat me and my submissions fairly.  Are some other people treated even better?

Mark Bonke 

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #279 on: October 11, 2018, 04:26:25 PM »
If they want to retain you as a customer they will refund most of the money.  They much more to lose in PR than a small check made out to you.

I think NGC tracks if an identical coin has been submitted by the same submitter within the previous few months.  A year ago resubmissions led to higher grades today it leads to the same grade. 

I don't have a lot of data points this year as my submission volume is down 90% from prior years.  I am still disappointed that I missed the opportunity to short CLCT early in the year when it was clear that dealers were grading much less than a year earlier. 

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #280 on: October 11, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »

Offline r3globe

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #281 on: October 11, 2018, 09:40:29 PM »
Hi, what is CLCT ?
stock symbol for Collectors Universe which is the company that owns PCGS.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #282 on: October 13, 2018, 05:11:10 PM »
Warning.  I purchased Lot #2420 at the Spink's auction in Hong Kong in August of 2018.  This lot included four medals, with a GBCA graded Great Wall silver medal (type 1)(satin finish)(68 grade).  I sent this medal to NCS and NGC for minimal conservation, authentication, grading and encapsulation.  Today, I received the results.  QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.  Ouch!  My money is lost.  I made a mistake.  I looked at it carefully during the preview in Hong Kong and still made a mistake.  Hopefully, you will learn from my warning and not make a similar mistake.

Mark Bonke

I was suprised that Spink Auction listed GBCA graded coin in its auction. GBCA has been known to grade many highly questionable Imperial and Republic coins and has a very bad reputation inside China. IMO, Spink should refund you the cost to protect its reputation. For any reputable auction house, refund for a counterfeit coin should not have time limit. Have you ask NGC to return the GBCA holder? This may become critical for you to receive the refund.


It was known that matte version Great Wall medal had counterfeit. They shown up in market place in earlier 2010, in double sealed package without box.   

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #283 on: October 13, 2018, 06:58:57 PM »
I was suprised that Spink Auction listed GBCA graded coin in its auction. GBCA has been known to grade many highly questionable Imperial and Republic coins and has a very bad reputation inside China. IMO, Spink should refund you the cost to protect its reputation. For any reputable auction house, refund for a counterfeit coin should not have time limit. Have you ask NGC to return the GBCA holder? This may become critical for you to receive the refund.

It was known that matte version Great Wall medal had counterfeit. They shown up in market place in earlier 2010, in double sealed package without box.   

If it's true that GBCA is or has done that, is the reason because their authenticators/graders are 3rd rate sub par or is it because they don't care if the items that go in their slabs may not actually be genuine?

Between NGC and PCGS, does either company have a better track record of being able to better evaluate for authenticity Chinese coins and medals?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #284 on: October 14, 2018, 07:50:38 PM »
Grading companies aren't perfect, even NGC and PCGS make many mistakes, however, in almost all cases they stand by their mistake and refund you the market value of the coin. 

Back in 2009-2011 PCGS was slabbing many counterfeit 2000 1oz silver mirror coins and imperial coins, their graders didn't know what to look for and worse it was taking 2-3 months to get coins graded because they were so short staffed.  In 2011 they arbitrarily decided the maximum coverage for PCGS holder Chinese coins were limited to $1000, while their expensive secure plus service which was $45/coin the guaranty was unlimited.  That was the turning point when PCGS coins went from trading at 10% premium to NGC to years laters NGC trading at 10% premium to PCGS.  Today I believe PCGS is back to unlimited guarantee on all PCGS coins, but for 1-2 years it was dicey. 

NGC mistakes have been less harmful, confusing 1992 LD for SD or vice versa for 5-7 years.  I had 50+ slabs incorrectly labeled and it took years for them to fix.  Overall NGC is 9 out 10 in my book, while PCGS is 6 out 10.  I think most collectors and dealers agree that NGC provides a better product with lower price and quick turnaround.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #285 on: October 14, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »
Thanks for the interesting info.

I've only submitted coins and medals to NGC because I don't want to pay for membership to more than 1 grading firm and NGC has, in my view, done a good job for me.

The 1 thing that PCGS may currently have going better than NGC (but that will likely change) is PCGS's virtually air tight holders. For preservation over the long term, this seems to be a big plus.....though I do wonder how long the actual plastic of the holders remains viable before it starts to decay, crack, and disintegrate.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #286 on: October 14, 2018, 09:29:21 PM »
Thanks for the interesting info.

I've only submitted coins and medals to NGC because I don't want to pay for membership to more than 1 grading firm and NGC has, in my view, done a good job for me.

The 1 thing that PCGS may currently have going better than NGC (but that will likely change) is PCGS's virtually air tight holders. For preservation over the long term, this seems to be a big plus.....though I do wonder how long the actual plastic of the holders remains viable before it starts to decay, crack, and disintegrate.

Aren't PCGS's slabs supposed to the more problematic ones or have they introduced better quality slabs? Just asking for clarification.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #287 on: October 14, 2018, 09:42:50 PM »
For modern Chinese gold and silver PCGS slab cause coins to tone faster and make them very unattractive.  Maybe the airtight holders trap the contamination and destroy coins quicker than if the holder allowed the coins to breathe.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #288 on: October 15, 2018, 07:04:30 AM »
1984 PF 67  Great Wall                   -bid-                      Ebay 292769153379...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #289 on: October 15, 2018, 07:21:08 AM »
What is the NGC and PCGS total pop for these Great Walls?.......

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #290 on: November 03, 2018, 02:27:52 PM »
As many of you probably do, I visit other coin and/or precious metals forums.

Just a moment ago, I saw a new post in the SilverStackers forum (under the Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions section ) that is quite relevant to this thread. The post reads:



On October 21st I received a message from eBay based of of a saved search request. The message informed me that an item just became available for purchase on eBay. When I clicked the link, to my surprise, the item had already sold.

This is the item: "
1984 China Great Wall Proof Silver Medal in Box No Heros Sealed
" ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-China...917930?hash=item5b4e506e6a:g:LKkAAOSwctJb0IDu ).

My question is: is this a genuine of fake item? The reason I ask is not because something looks obviously wrong with the medal itself, but rather because I am not aware that these medals ever came issued in plastic pouches back in 1984. I'm aware that there are allegedly fakes of this rare type of medal out there....and based on the fact that this item sold for about $2,500, I'm very much concerned that perhaps yet another fake may have just been sold.

If for some reason you are unable to see the auction listing, then let me know and I'll share the auction photos here in this thread.

Any and all thoughts regarding this are welcome.



https://www.silverstackers.com/forums/index.php?threads/genuine-or-fake-rare-great-wall-medal.90204/


The person raises a good question and point. Is that a fake or genuine Great Wall medal?