Author Topic: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...  (Read 15646 times)

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Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2011, 02:28:26 PM »
It is still in active development. There are a few people that have been invited to test it, but for the most part it is closed to the public until it is ready for further testing. It has turned out to be a much more challenging project than I initially envisioned, but it is coming along well.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2011, 06:04:24 PM »
Excellent Badon, I'll look forward to it in the future, and thanks again to everyone for their guidance and information.  It's greatly appreciated.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2011, 05:16:03 PM »
I entered your coin into the Coin Compendium with the CC number CC6, and a link back to this discussion.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2011, 08:19:17 PM »
Thanks for the update Badon!
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Coinslinger

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2011, 02:31:17 AM »
Quote from Badon: "PCGS is more about their idea of eye appeal than technical grading standards like NGC is."   Wow.

Now I usually subscribe to most everything Badon has to say and I have all the respect in world for his knowledge.... But I am not sure where the above statement comes from.  I've been in this business for 18+ years and when it comes to Pre-1965 U.S. Numismatics.... that statement couldn't be further away from reality.... in fact, it's just the opposite.  Any experienced, reputable dealer can tell you that the major knock on NGC is the fact that they often discard 'technical grading' for eye appeal and have earned an industry wide reputation for over-grading.  I could provide a thousand examples of MS/PF-65+ NGC coins that when sent to PCGS for cross-over, were reduced to 63's and 64's or less..... in some cases, the grades were so off the mark it was laughable. In contrast, it was PCGS who from 1986 to the late '90's was heavily criticized for being(ironically) too technical and conservative.... but they have since corrected that issue and are far and away the undisputed leader in third-party grading.... even the Brass at NGC will privately concede this.

Today NGC is still trying to shed their rep for over-grading and when it comes to U.S. Coins they are still far behind PCGS in grading accuracy/consistency. IMO, I find the same to be true when it comes to MC Coins.

Honus: Your 2003 Gold Panda is indeed OVER-GRADED. Those 'scrapes' definitely count against the grade....  It wouldn't net a 68 in a PCGS slab and if you sent it back to NGC(which is exactly what I would do), I think they would recognize their mistake and re-holder it in a 67 or 66 slab.  NGC would reimburse you for the difference in value so I wouldn't hesitate.  I certainly would NOT try to pass it on to someone else as a 69.     

Coinslinger

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2011, 02:45:52 AM »
Those marks most likely came after the coin was sealed and left the Mint.  I have hundreds of OMP Gold Pandas with the same type of scrapes/scratches.  Keep in mind, that unlike the silver issues(2005 and previous) the Gold BU issues are not double sealed(1999 serif and 2000 Frost are the exceptions) and it is easy for them to get beat up.  The marks on your coin probably started out as tiny indentations from something that was resting on it(possibly another coin) and over time, deteriorated to the point that they resemble scratches or scrapes. Also, since you bought the coin already graded, who knows what happened when it still resided in it's OMP...?

Underbidder

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2011, 02:59:28 AM »
Doubt it. It would most likely have ht the "9" too since its so much higher.  Would have been near impossible, if still in OMP, due to resistence of thick plastic.


Nice coin. MS68+.   Happy?

Coinslinger

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2011, 03:23:32 AM »
It depends on what caused the marks in the first place.... It is certainly possible and likely that something could have made contact with the coin without affecting the raised devices.  I have several examples of Gold Pandas that have the same issues....  There's no way to tell what really happened to the coin, but that so-called 'thick' plastic in not going to prevent damage.

Again, it's a real simple fix.... Send the coin back to NGC, let them re-holder it and take the reimbursement.  Easy call.

Underbidder

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2011, 03:27:22 AM »
It depends on what caused the marks in the first place.... It is certainly possible and likely that something could have made contact with the coin without affecting the raised devices.  I have several examples of Gold Pandas that have the same issues....  There's no way to tell what really happened to the coin, but that so-called 'thick' plastic in not going to prevent damage.

Again, it's a real simple fix.... Send the coin back to NGC, let them re-holder it and take the reimbursement.  Easy call.

Right.

Offline GDG's

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2011, 06:56:07 AM »
Quote from Badon: "PCGS is more about their idea of eye appeal than technical grading standards like NGC is."   Wow.

Now I usually subscribe to most everything Badon has to say and I have all the respect in world for his knowledge.... But I am not sure where the above statement comes from.  I've been in this business for 18+ years and when it comes to Pre-1965 U.S. Numismatics.... that statement couldn't be further away from reality.... in fact, it's just the opposite.  Any experienced, reputable dealer can tell you that the major knock on NGC is the fact that they often discard 'technical grading' for eye appeal and have earned an industry wide reputation for over-grading.  I could provide a thousand examples of MS/PF-65+ NGC coins that when sent to PCGS for cross-over, were reduced to 63's and 64's or less..... in some cases, the grades were so off the mark it was laughable. In contrast, it was PCGS who from 1986 to the late '90's was heavily criticized for being(ironically) too technical and conservative.... but they have since corrected that issue and are far and away the undisputed leader in third-party grading.... even the Brass at NGC will privately concede this.

Today NGC is still trying to shed their rep for over-grading and when it comes to U.S. Coins they are still far behind PCGS in grading accuracy/consistency. IMO, I find the same to be true when it comes to MC Coins.

Honus: Your 2003 Gold Panda is indeed OVER-GRADED. Those 'scrapes' definitely count against the grade....  It wouldn't net a 68 in a PCGS slab and if you sent it back to NGC(which is exactly what I would do), I think they would recognize their mistake and re-holder it in a 67 or 66 slab.  NGC would reimburse you for the difference in value so I wouldn't hesitate.  I certainly would NOT try to pass it on to someone else as a 69.     

Coinslinger,

I can see you have been a numismatist a long time. I am in 100% agreement with you on NGC/PCGS. I think many sellers send their coins to NGC knowing it will get a better grade and for that reason only. They hype NGC holders in order to sell their coins.There are know it alls and there are numismatists.  David Bowers would say the same in private.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2011, 10:15:22 AM »
Thanks for the input gentlemen, I appreciate it.  Let me ask you from a practical standpoint, Coinslinger.  I've read through NGC's guarantee thoroughly, and I'm sure if I called them I might get a more in-depth, even subjective, explanation of it by phone from one of their customer service reps.  But in real-life practical terms, how would you imagine it might play out if I asked NGC to honor the guarantee for this particular coin?     

You don't have to take a lot of time and try and answer that question, just think through it with me.  My thought process (which may be faulty!) goes like this...gold has fallen $140 per ounce since my purchase, and the 2003's are somewhat thinly traded, so establishing fair-market value would not be as easy as, say, the fair market for an MS63 1900 $20 Liberty.   Because of the limited supply of this date, in any grade, someone could make the argument that there is no longer a large difference in value between, say, an MS67 and MS69.   Throw all of that in a blender and I can imagine getting the coin back in an MS67 holder with a check for $90 and a "have a nice day" note. 

This fear may just be my inexperience talking - maybe you guys have exercised your NGC guarantee rights many times and know how the game is played.  But again, if this were a 1900 $20 Liberty, it would be easy to determine fair market value.  On a 2003 gold panda, I see potential for the process having an unhappy ending.  And it's been almost 2 months since I received the coin, and as I work toward completing my collection of MS69 1oz Gold pandas I find that I'm not embarrassed to have this particular 2003 in my collection.  Yes, I still wish I'd received a pristine example, but I don't lose any sleep over the transaction, and I don't stare at this coin and brim with anger.  I don't want to use the NGC guarantee if I don't think I can increase my happiness level in the end.

Thanks again for the input, everyone.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Coinslinger

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2011, 03:50:30 PM »
This is more about getting the coin properly re-holdered than it is about the money you would get..... I've sold MS-69 2003 G500Y 1 oz. Pandas recently for as high as $2695.00.  NGC would not dispute a reasonable market value with you, they're actually very good about quickly making things right.  An MS-67 could be about a $600-to-$700 drop.  That's not a bad comp.  I always have them(NGC) put reimbursements toward future submissions, so it really works out quite nicely.  If you opt to have the $, then they will ship a check to you.  But we all need to do our part when it comes to keeping over-graded coins off the market.

Look, Honus.... if you plan on keeping the coin, then all of this is irrelevant.  But you started this thread for a reason and I'm certain you're not happy with the coin otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.  If you do send it back to NGC, you could sell the downgraded coin and then use the accompanying reimbursement to buy a problem free piece for what you originally paid.....in fact you might actually make a few bucks....?

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 05:34:54 PM »
Quote from Badon: "PCGS is more about their idea of eye appeal than technical grading standards like NGC is."   Wow.

Now I usually subscribe to most everything Badon has to say and I have all the respect in world for his knowledge.... But I am not sure where the above statement comes from. 

It comes from the fact that NGC will still give a 69 grade based on objective technical merits, while PCGS may overrule the technical merits to mark the grade down in favor of their subjective standards for eye appeal. The result is what you perceive as NGC's loose grading, and PCGS's strict grading. Each grading style is a matter of preference.

Those marks most likely came after the coin was sealed and left the Mint.

I disagree. My analysis dictates that the marks could only have been formed under evenly-applied high pressure (a die strike).

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 07:22:14 PM »
Badon....  I have a strong working relationship with both NGC and PCGS.  I talk to to these guys on a daily basis and many years ago I almost became a grader for PCGS, if not for the fact that I would've had to give up trading(at the time, if you graded for PCGS you could not actively buy/sell as a dealer) I would have taken the job.  So I'm just going to let my experience in this area speak for itself. What I'm offering isn't speculative.... I'm not trying to formulate an opinion. It's just the way things are. 

As far as what your analysis dictates(?)... I'll give you a prime example that simply dismisses your theory.  I have a really nice 1998 100Y 1 oz. Lg. Date in OMP.  I picked this piece up at a small show a few months back and after carefully examining the entire coin under 10x, 20x, and then finally 30x maginfication, it was spotless.... a can't miss 69. I photographed the coin and put it in a small box of coins designated for grading in my transitional safe.  A few weeks later when I was putting together a submission list for NCS, I noticed two small 'scratches' @ about 10 o' clock on the Reverse(Panda side) directly underneath the .999 and above the 100Y near the rim....virtually identical to the marks on Honus' 2003 500Y Au Panda.  Now they weren't there before and I have no idea how they got there.... what I do know is they were clearly NOT a result of a die strike.  Now that's just ONE example.... I could give you a THOUSAND more, in fact I could inundate this thread(forum) with hundreds of images proving my point.

The bottom line is this, you can analyze it until you're blue in the teeth, but you cannot predict random chaos.  There's no mystery here Guy's.... the coin has scratches on it and none of us supposed geniuses can definitively tell you how they got there.  End of story.

         

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 07:44:37 PM »
Let's all talk in absolutes and play the end of story game!
I think this is a beautiful coin that deserves a 69 grade.
End of Story.