Author Topic: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...  (Read 13179 times)

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Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 08:06:37 PM »
GDG, I don't have another 1oz in the same new NGC holder, only one in one of the older NGC holders and I'm sure the weight is different just because of the different plastic structure of the holder.  Still I weighed them both, the 2003 we're discussing weighs 71.5 grams  and a 2005 in old holder weighs 72 grams.
Eric Liquori
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Offline GDG's

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 08:15:27 PM »
I have an NGC Graded Coin with a sizable rim ding that you cannot see since it's been slabbed. I'm sure the coin is real but I don't go for the 69. Even if it were a 68 I would keep it. I'd put it in the vault and wait 6 months till Gold hit 2k and sell it if I were that dissatisfied. I am a picky buyer though. I almost never never send coins back to dealers even if I don't think it will get a 69. 600 over spot for this coin is a good deal IMO.

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 08:19:42 PM »
I found one overgraded NGC coin that had a large rim ding as well. Big rim dings are rare in modern Chinese coins, so I'm not sure how it should be graded, but I doubt it should have received a 69. As a guess, I think I would have given it a 67. That's the only one I've ever found like that.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 08:26:44 PM »
I added a couple more photos.  The lighting is off, but that's as good as I can do with the limitations of my 6mp camera.   And I see exactly what you mean, Badon, about lint marks.  I'm more inclined to think that's exactly the case with the head mark.  Still undecided on the two perpendicular marks.  I may just sleep on it, see how I feel about it in the morning.  On the one hand, Badon's right about going on instinct...in the same way I have questions about it, future buyers may as well.  On the other, GDG isn't wrong about getting a decent deal on it. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 08:33:36 PM »
One of the images isn't loading up for me.

Offline GDG's

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 08:35:12 PM »
Honus,

I'm sure it's real and the price is really, really good. My advice is to keep it. If you want to sell it you would get more then you paid for it today IMO.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 10:11:17 PM »
All images fixed, thanks guys. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 10:19:21 PM »
Still looks like lint marks to me. I see no signs of disturbed metal, and no signs of entry-exit typical of contact with another object. There's a "J" shaped lint mark above the "u" in "Au" that shows up really clearly in one of those photos.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 11:04:37 PM »
I'd agree with Badon, lint marks or some other irregularity with the frosting.  Not scratches from contact IMO.

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 11:41:22 PM »
For future reference, here's the images attached to this forum post, so others can see what lint marks look like.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2011, 10:22:10 AM »
So it seems the consensus, from a few very knowledgeable people, is that NGC may not have over-graded this one, and as I've researched NGC's grading standards it's because they do not penalize a coin for blemishes that occur during minting.     So if I were to be bummed, I shouldn't direct it at NGC, but rather the mint for being a bit sloppy that day.  Maybe I've just been lucky...every other 1oz Gold I've come across has just looked flawless, even under inexpensive 5x magnification, so I may be a bit spoiled in that regard.  I've seen plenty of rim dings on silver pandas, but minting blemishes on the faces of the gold coins is not something I've had to accept (and I don't include copper spots in that category - copper spots don't bother me that much).

I appreciate everyone's time and help, I'll let you guys know whether I keep it or not.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 01:04:35 PM »
Even though / if the marks were caused by the mint, they can still detract from the eye appeal of the coin.  If you don't like the coin very much and the seller has a good return policy, it wouldn't be unreasonable to return it.  That being said, I do agree with some of the others, the price was a good price and you may have a hard time finding another MS69 for that price.  You may however find a MS68 that has as good or better eye appeal for a similar price or less.  That is the dilema with the market right now paying large premiums for 69s.

If the coin will really bother you when looking at it with you naked eye, I say return it and pay more for a very nice one.  The pictures we see have the coin magnafied many, many times.  If to your naked eye the spots aren't very distracting, I'd keep it.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 07:31:40 PM »
Thanks for the input, Obsidian.  You're right about eye appeal, and you make a great point about naked eye viewing vs. magnification. 

From what I consider a normal viewing distance of 12 inches or so, regular arms length, with the naked eye, the coin is beautiful and the marks are too small to see.  To the naked eye, it's just gorgeous.  And I'm also farsighted, so my near-field vision is poor anyway.  Other people with better eyesight might be able to squint and see the marks, but I can't without magnification.  Actually, my girlfriend couldn't see them either, and she has younger eyes and great vision.  I love looking at it, and it's visually stunning.

My initial message that started the thread wasn't so much about eye appeal, as knowing the marks are there and wanting to make sure I didn't make a large (for me anyway, I'm far from wealthy) investment in a coin that down the road might be judged poorly by others, or that was over-graded.   On the basis of strictly eye-appeal, it's absolutely a keeper in my opinion.  But I always try to judge coins not only by what my eyes see, but thinking ahead and trying to anticipate what others might think should I face a situation where I had to sell the coin.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline badon

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 07:53:11 PM »
One great thing about seeking advice from this forum is, let's say you want to sell the coin 5 years from now. Even at that point in the future, you can refer interested buyers to this discussion here, so they can see for themselves that the coin is indeed a 69, and the marks on the coin are actually just lint marks.

Also, if you wouldn't mind sharing the certification number for the coin, this topic could serve as a great footnote for your coin's entry in the Coin Compendium. Then you can just refer people to the CC, and they can find all interesting info about this particular coin.

Offline Honus

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Re: Opinions on new 2003 MS69 Panda Gold - I'm bummed...
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2011, 11:29:53 AM »
Of course, the cert # is 3555228-001.

I am not familiar with the compendium, so I did a search and found the thread discussing it, but not a link to it.  Is it something still in process, or can it be viewed?

Thanks Badon,

Eric
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com