Author Topic: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda  (Read 21019 times)

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Offline BobW

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A few collectors, especially Registry Set participants, aggressively pursue Panda coins in the ultimate grade of PCGS MS70/PR70.

The exceptionally well made gold and silver 2008 pandas are presently rather easy to either make an MS70 grade by submission directly to PCGS or by purchase from sellers and the following applies primarily to pre-2008 dates.

How best to get that desired 70 grade? Several alternatives come to mind.

1. Buy one.

Assuming PCGS has graded the date sought and assuming money is of limited concern, finding an owner who is willing to consider selling his panda will obviously be the challenge. It is likely best to enable one major panda dealer to pursue the coin(s) for you. Contacting panda registry owners and/or listing your wants on Buy/Sell/Trade message boards such as the PCGS forum are other alternatives.

2. Buy an NGC MS70/PR70 coin.

Be aware that PCGS will not accept crossover submissions which specify a minimum grade of 70. The reason for this is PCGS requires examination of the rim and can only do this by removing the panda from its NGC holder. Submitting the NGC coin with no minimum grade limitation is hence the only alternative. Using this strategy can be costly as almost all NGC 70 coins sell for more than the same coin graded a 69 by PCGS and there is no certainty that the coin once removed from the NGC holder would once again be graded as a 70 example by NGC.

3. Acquire ungraded panda coins.

While ungraded gold proof coins and the silver proof pandas of 1983-1996 can still be found, the chance of finding one which would grade PR70 is a huge longshot especially since PCGS has never granted a PR70 grade to a proof panda.

All proof-like 1989 - 2007 silver pandas are still readily available and most non-proof gold pandas can be located with minimal difficulty. The goal here is to obtain coins which have a chance of being graded MS70. Ideally, before buying any coins, you will have the chance to view the coins in person or have someone do that task for you. If this is not an option, be sure that the coins can be returned to the seller if they are not acceptable.

Conclusion/Opinion

I believe that alternative 3 offers the best chance for obtaining an MS70 panda and that there is very very little chance of obtaining a PR70 panda.

Comparing the low number of pandas that so far have been graded by PCGS to the number minted, I believe that over time many more PCGS MS70s will be made. I also think most of the MS70s will come from coins recently minted. Further, the likely source of those MS70s will be coins acquired from reliable sellers in China where certified panda coins are not yet popular. Having someone who can screen the coins is key. If this is not possible, tell the seller what you are looking for - a coin in the original packaging, well struck, free of any spots or blemishes, etc. Tell the seller if he has any which meet your criteria, that you will purchase a few and if they are acceptable, you will buy more. Also tell the seller, that if he does not have any that presently meet your criteria, to please inform you if he does in the future. If the purchase price is also right, this can be a profitable venture even if the coins are only graded MS68 or MS69.

For uncertified coins located in the USA, I believe the large majority of pre-2008 pandas, have been carefully looked at and if they had a chance of getting an MS68 or MS69 grade they would have already been submitted to a grading service.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 02:46:28 PM by BobW »

qaz

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 10:33:21 PM »
Very useful information.  Thank you!
 :thumbup: :thumbup1: :thumbup:

Offline badon

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 01:15:01 AM »
Maybe I'm a purist, but I prefer coins that are still in their original packaging. Only the original packaging will still have any meaning in a thousand years (this is China we're talking about, 1000 years is nothing). By then, grading services will be merely historical curiosities. The real value is in the original coin. Anyone disagree? I'm interested to hear other opinions.

Offline Jay

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 08:08:32 PM »
The original packaging is made of a soft plastic that degrades over time.  I have seen many early pandas in plastic that has yellowed and even some have started to have a gooey feel when you touch them.  The plastic may also contaminate the coin surface.  At present pre-1990 seems to be the most affected.

It is also more difficult to assess the quality of the coin when it is in the original plastic.  It is also more difficult to discern is a coin is fake.

I like PCGS slabs because they are clear and give a nice view of the coins without distraction.

As far as MS70, I dont believe there is any true meaningful difference between an MS70 and an MS69 in most cases.  My bet is that if you cracked-out a 70 and had it regraded, it would come back as 69 about 90% of the time.

Jay

Offline PDSP

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 10:43:50 AM »
 I have a question for the board that is muCh more in the know than i am.
 
 I have 3 ea 1999 1 oz Serif silver pandas , one of them is a slabbed graded by NGC MS68 SMALL DATE , I am sending it back to NGC to get a Designation Review to a MS68 LARGE DATE SERIF ( $ 10 fee ) It will stay at NGC grade MS68  

 
 The other two are mint double sealed , one of two i think is much better than the graded NGC MS68 ,i think it will grade at MS69 LARGE DATE SERIF (looking at it with x10 eye loop )

 The 3rd mint double sealed should grade at MS68 LARGE DATE SREIF , it looks the same as the already graded MS68 by NGC .

 The fee to have the two mint double sealed 1999 LD SERIF's Graded and slabbed by NGC is $30 each plus $19.70 total shipping for all 3 coins

I guess i am looking for ideas of what to do as far as the double mint sealed 1999 serif's , leave them in the mint double seals or take a chance and have them slabbed ? They may both come back as MS68

As a futher note i have $75 in the already slabbed 99 serif, and $350 in the other two mint double sealed 99 serif's.

I know that i am buying more slabbed coins than none slabbed.

Thanks for any suggestions. Paul

          

  
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 06:52:59 PM by PDSP »

Offline Bimetallic

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 02:00:23 AM »
One thing I have noticed at least with the gold proof and bimetallic pandas is the coins are sometimes smaller than the capsules and slide around,this causes abrasions on the coins.

Also some of them were in boxes with red velvet that had the velvet lose hairs that get all over the capsules and inside onto the coins. I cut my coins out of the plastic packaging to weigh them and get the velvet off. I notice one in packaging had the red velvet inside so you can't even trust the packaging as always being original.


Offline badon

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2010, 07:04:13 PM »
I have been persuaded that that the original packaging is total garbage, and not worth cherishing for collecting's sake. At worst, they ruin your coins. I've got a few that are coming out of their packaging as soon as I need to move them again.

KonaJim

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 01:17:37 PM »
For me there is still nothing like a double sealed Chinese coin, in the presentation box and with the cardboard box.  I would never disrupt this presentation.  I also feel having been a "collector" of all things rare for 40 years that "original" always receives a premium in price.  For BU coins only in original sealed plastic I would put them in a slab.

Offline badon

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 09:10:55 PM »
The plastics are potentially harmful to some of the coins, and the capsules sometimes don't fit snugly, so the coin slides around inside of it, damaging the mirror finish until it's just scratched up blurry mess. You have to choose which is more important to the value of your coins: The high quality presevation of the coin, or the original mint packaging. Sometimes, it's clearly better to preserve the coin and discard the packaging.

However much the original packaging adds to the value, usually it's not enough to make it worth damaging the coin. Check your coins to see if they're loose in their packaging. If they are, it's a good candidate for removal.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 11:44:04 AM »
If you are going to slab a coin (which is often a good idea), I recommend photographing or scanning it while its still in its original pouch. This preserves a record of which mint location struck the coin.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

Offline GDG's

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 11:22:38 AM »
One thing I have noticed at least with the gold proof and bimetallic pandas is the coins are sometimes smaller than the capsules and slide around,this causes abrasions on the coins.

Also some of them were in boxes with red velvet that had the velvet lose hairs that get all over the capsules and inside onto the coins. I cut my coins out of the plastic packaging to weigh them and get the velvet off. I notice one in packaging had the red velvet inside so you can't even trust the packaging as always being original.

True but the 2009 UHR Gauden's from the West Point Mint did the same thing. I was quick to remove and send out to have slabbed.

Underbidder

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2011, 03:19:49 PM »
.

Offline glgehman001

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2012, 04:24:18 PM »
I have been persuaded that that the original packaging is total garbage, and not worth cherishing for collecting's sake. At worst, they ruin your coins. I've got a few that are coming out of their packaging as soon as I need to move them again.

I have a MS 69 Maple Leaf which has developed a white spot of death and this mistlike haze around the edge since it has been in encapsulated in an NGC holder, dunno how.

The downfall of double layer original mint packaging is that one type of plastic can mask defects from on angle and the hard case inside can make them completely invisible.  Thank fully only a couple of the coins I knew I would grade low did, 64?  MS66 I thought I had 1 or 2 but 64? Just that packaging can fool ya.

How do Panda collectors feel about toning?

Offline GDG's

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2012, 05:36:26 PM »
"Real Toning on an old Morgan can be beautiful. Toning on a CMC, UGH! White spots of death I am not familiar with at this time but the majority of my coins are Gold. I do know that NCS preserving and NGC slabbing now cost so much I begin to realize is it worth it?

People should think long and hard before they spend this kind of money on a silver coin worth say $500. Will you recoup it when you sell it? What if you don't get the grade you expect? Even examining  the coin doesn't guarantee the grade you will receive. A cost analysis on what you expect the grading service to give you, the amount you pay the grading service, and the price you expect to receive for the coin are all variables you must examine.

After all this I prefer buying already graded coins for my personal collection. I do prefer PCGS, unlike most CMC collectors, but believe this will change once PCGS begins operations in Hong Kong. The Chinese are pretty sophisticated and realize that PCGS has been the premier grading service in America for a long time.

Offline exchange

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Re: Brief Review of Alternatives for Obtaining a PCGS MS70/PR70 Panda
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 06:43:35 PM »
"Real Toning on an old Morgan can be beautiful. Toning on a CMC, UGH!


I think toning on Chinese silver coins is beautiful, especially toning around the rim. I have the 1995 set of the Yellow River Culture set and if I remember right, some coins have light toning on the edges of the rim. The light toning gives it a mystic look and resembles an antique painting. It gives it character and authenticity. An investor might prefer them cleaned, a collector might prefer them exotic looking.

exchange