Author Topic: PCGS certification number patterns  (Read 5227 times)

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Offline badon

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PCGS certification number patterns
« on: September 13, 2011, 09:20:35 PM »
I don't collect PCGS coins, but a lot of people do. Can someone please explain to me the PCGS certification number patterns? It looks like they're all sequential, is that correct? NGC randomizes theirs, does PCGS do the same thing?

Offline comeaux

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 10:32:19 PM »
NGC randomizes theirs, does PCGS do the same thing?

From what I have experienced NGC/NCS does not randomize their orders, they are in order of submission.

What I see when I submit to NGC is you enter your coins on an invoice which is numbered with seven digits such as #2766787. If you submit 10 coins on this order then their certification number will start with the first coin 2766787-001, 2766787-002, 2766787-003, etc.
 
If I make several submissions on different invoices simultaneously then the certifications would fall in order such as 2766787, 2766788, 2766789, etc.

If I submit to NCS first then typically the invoice will start with a #5 such as #5400373 but after it is conserved at NCS and transferred to NGC it will be reassigned a new number for certification that typically starts with a #3 such as #3550271.

But to go back to the original statement badon, I don’t think NGC randomizes as I have seen multiple submissions be sequential from my experience. 

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 10:44:32 PM »
I just checked, and it looks like you're right. Thanks for the correction. So, it appears NGC sequentializes invoice numbers as well as coin numbers.

It looks like PCGS just uses one sequential number, without invoice numbers, but I'm not sure about that.

Offline comeaux

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 10:47:59 PM »
I don't collect PCGS coins,
Oh yea and I agree 100% !!!

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 12:47:01 AM »
I don't collect PCGS coins, but a lot of people do.
According to CCF poll 4 out of 51 is a pretty abysmal sub 8%.
I wouldn't call this a lot of people : )
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3689.0
I just submitted the only PCGS coin I ever owned for a NCS/NGC crossover.
Good riddance!

Offline Gilmore

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 02:34:00 AM »
Quote
I don't collect PCGS coins

Why not?

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 03:17:54 PM »
They're behind NGC in almost every area. The only area where the PCGS owners say they beat NGC is in their consistency of grading. But, that point is moot, in my opinion because the holders are not good enough to preserve the coins, and prevent them from DE-grading.

Also, NGC grades more coins than PCGS, they also do conservation with NCS, which is important for Chinese coins. NGC will also grade virtually any size coin, and they'll grade far more types of coins than PCGS.

In other words, except for a few special cases, NGC is by far the better choice.

The few special cases where some people prefer PCGS is in high-end coins valued over $10,000 in gold, platinum, or palladium, where the inadequate holder is less of a concern. Even then, that's not good enough reason for me to want to own PCGS coins, because the inadequate holder still allows dirt from air pollution to accumulate on the coins. And, NGC's edge view holders allow you to see more of the coin.

That's why almost everyone chooses NGC, and only a small fraction of people prefer PCGS. The people that prefer PCGS probably prefer them mostly for personal reasons, such as a high regard for their grading consistency, or an aesthetic preference for their clear holder.

In short, there's a lot of reasons to like NGC, but only a few reasons to like PCGS. If any of those few reasons are very important to you, then you may want to join the minority of people who prefer PCGS over NGC.

PCGS is an important grading service, and very highly respected, even if most people would rather have NGC. ANACS is another one to consider, if you want to look for alternatives to NGC and/or PCGS.

Other than NGC, PCGS, and ANACS (in that order), I don't think there are any other competitive grading services worth considering.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 04:31:41 PM »
I personally like NGC better but the facts are, PCGS has a much bigger foothold in the US coin market.  At least in the US PCGS coins sell for a slightly higher premium over NGC.

Now the Chinese coin market seems to be a little different.  NGC was more proactive with this market so they have a large foothold compared to PCGS.  However, I also know that several of the larger dealers in this market do actually charge MORE for PCGS graded coins.  Do prices on eBay reflect this?  I don't know but I know that both Rare Panda Coins, Modern Chinese coins, etc charge more for PCGS coins.

I personally own a mixture of both coins because I bought many of them slabbed.  At least for my gold coins I have not bothered to cross them over from PCGS to NGC.  I don't know if I will either.

PCGS has the reputation of being stricter on grading.  That is why PCGS coins demand a premium over NGC coins.  That means if you have a PCGS coin in 69 you know it will be a nice coin.  Theoretically a PCGS 68 could be as nice or nicer than an a marginal NGC 69.  I don't know if this is really the way things are but that is the way the US coin market sees it.

Again, i personally like the NGC holder better but I can see the appeal of PCGS if you have been a long time US coin collector.  PCGS clearly has had a better reputation.  Now if the only coins you have collected have been Modern Chinese coins then you could likely see things differently.  As the poll numbers suggest.  Chinese moderns coin collectors are somewhat biased towards NGC.  If you did the same poll on a US coin forum, likely PCGS would have a relatively large lead.

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »
Excellent summary of the facts Obsidian, thank you. The Chinese coin dealers that send coins to PCGS usually send in their best ones, to cater to buyers who THINK PCGS is stricter in their grading, and are willing to pay more for them. Whether PCGS really is stricter, I'm not 100% sure of that.

Either way, when some dealers send their best coins to PCGS, it will certainly become obvious that when you buy from those dealers, the PCGS coins will look better - at least until the air pollution accumulates on them :)

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »
By the way, I think if PCGS would simply improve their holder, they would be much more competitive. The bad holder is what's biasing people away from PCGS, because it doesn't matter they're better in every way, if their holders lead to damaged coins. Once they get a good holder, then it will be easier to make a fair comparison of PCGS vs. NGC.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 05:02:05 PM »
Three steps to the best of both worlds:

Step one: buy nice graded PCGS coin
Step two: submit PCGS coin to NGC for crossover
Step three: save invoice

PCGS certified and NGC certified coin in the best holder with documented and recorded identifying registry crossover data.

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 05:05:27 PM »
Wow, great tip, thanks for that!

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 05:19:09 PM »
Also,
As I understand it... on the off chance that the coin doesn't need NCS you can direct submit to NGC with a "minimum crossover" specification.
If your coin won't cross at the minimum requirement into a NGC holder then you get it back in an the original PCGS slab.
*You're minimum must be the minimum on the slab so you can't specify minimum 69 on a 68 coin etc...
The key thing to remember with "minimum crossover" is that theoretically an undergraded 68 could cross as a 69... an undergraded 69 could cross as a 70 etc...
*NGC won't accept 70 coins as crossovers.

So, from an investment standpoint this is really a zero risk with possible high return scenario provided that you prefer NGC holders.

Offline comeaux

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 05:25:53 PM »
Yes Panda Halves you make a good point as I do this rather frequently but on a side note I would not hold your breath hoping for an "upgrade" as after numerous "crossovers" the best I ever came out with was an even swap from 68 to 68 or 69 to 69 ...

I have never been lucky enough to go from a 68 to a 69 ... 

Maybe it's just me but I think that would happen very infrequently or never  :001_smile:

But the crossover recommendation is a very good one !

Offline pandayo

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 05:38:14 PM »
delete - answered
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 05:45:54 PM by pandayo »

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 10:27:57 PM »
I just checked, and it looks like you're right. Thanks for the correction. So, it appears NGC sequentializes invoice numbers as well as coin numbers.

It looks like PCGS just uses one sequential number, without invoice numbers, but I'm not sure about that.

Anyone know for sure?

Offline comeaux

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 10:40:21 PM »
Anyone know for sure?
It is correct and you can even check it yourself …
 
Just go to NGC and use option to submit coins, when the blank invoice opens just close or cancel it and open another … it will be in sequential order to your previous invoice number or maybe one number higher if someone else manages to open a new invoice between you opening the first and second invoice.

I know this is correct because I have done multiple submissions on separate invoices …

I’m sure many others can attest to this as well …

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 11:02:09 PM »
Thanks! I understood that about NGC from your previous response. My question is about PCGS numbers.

Offline 123panda

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 10:34:28 AM »
I just looked at the only PCGS submission I ever made, they are Modern US coins.  Gold Buffalos and Platinum Eagles.
With PCGS you have to look up the Number of the coin you are submitting, Every coin type, Year, denomination or size, Proof or Unc. each coin has it's own number, that is the first 6 digits, I am not sure what the next 2 no's are, then 8 more numbers that seem to be the order of the grading number assigned to the coin.  Those seem to be assigned in the order of grading. Of those 8 numbers only the last two changed in my order, but I only submitted 7 coins and the numbers are all in a row(sequencial). But I noticed on my Platinum Eagles they only show the last 8 numbers, they do not even show the number they made me look up in order to be submitted, also the next 2 digits are omitted.  I guess they decided to put it only in the Barcode. Here is an example 414465.70/18364559.  The first 6 digits note the coin, not sure the next 2 digits, then the next 8 digits I believe are the number of the coin graded.  The Platinum # is 18364565. I had them graded 1 yr ago, so it kind of agrees with the claim that they have graded 20,000,000 coins or 8 digits.

NGC sends out forms to submit manually also, so I believe that is the beginning of the number with the last 3 being the number of the submitted coins(meaning you could submit up to 999 with the same order number) with that order.  But I have only submitted thru NCS so I see mine also beginning with a 5,which is the manual NCS submission numbered form, then changing to a NGC number starting with a 3.  I have seen people submit over 150 coins with the same prefix #.  I personally do not like that because people can see all the coins you submitted with an order thru NGC or NCS.  I find it interesting to look at other peoples, but do not really want them looking at mine, it shows all the grades given too.
123 panda   

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 08:44:01 PM »
According to this:

http://www.pcgs.com/barcode.html

if your barcode is 414465.70/18364559, then the .70 would mean you have a 70 grade on the coin.

Also, it appears PCGS is not grading in customer-submitted lots like NGC. Instead, PCGS assigns each coin a unique sequential number. That allows them to take all the coins of a same type submitted during an entire month, and grade them all together, so the best coins get the best grades, and the worst coins get the worst grades.

That explains why grading is slower at PCGS than NGC, and also why PCGS grading has a better reputation for consistency. Actually, I grade things myself the PCGS way. This little discovery makes me like PCGS a lot more. I still prefer NGC, but if PCGS ever fixes their holder, I might have to start using them.

Like you said, another advantage is that you can't figure out who owns which coins in the PCGS way, like you can with NGC. For example, lets say everybody knows I own a particular rare coin with NGC number 1234567-001. Then, someone can use that info to figure out what other coins I own, just by checking 1234567-002, 1234567-003, etc.

That's another score in favor of PCGS for both privacy, and objective independent grading. Still, not enough to compensate for their other shortcomings compared to NGC.

This info is very helpful. Thanks! I'm going to put it to good use.

Offline 123panda

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 12:36:50 AM »
Just to Clarify.  Yes, you were correct, the coin did grade pr70, but it's only a 1 oz 2009 Gold Buffalo, so it should have. I sent 3 - 2010's got back 2 pr70's and 1 pr69. Those were all still sealed in the boxes, so they did not steal my better coins either.  I also sent 3 Platinum 1 oz Eagles, within the first 30 days, so to save shipping cost and reduce the package size I opened them before sending them.  I got 1 pr70 and 2 pr69's. I could not see any difference in them, took them to a coin show and ask a couple of dealers if they could see any difference.  They got they loupes out and both said they could not see anything that would cause these pr69 not to be 70's.  That is why the grading still remains a little bit of a mystery to me.  I bought a nice loup from www.8edwin.com.au, it is a metal fold up and was about $36 + shipping(wish I had bought more of them as they would make very nice gifts, they claim it's a 10x, here is a link to it http://www.8edwin.com.au/index.php?controller=product&path=26&product_id=22   it is real nice and it makes most nice coins looks bad especial ms US coins, it seems over critical.  What do they graders use?  I heard on the new ones they take pictures and blow them up and that's how the choose the 70's over the 69's based on the planchet, that is what the guy from NGC said recently, Mr. Salsbury I think.
Back to the numbering, so the first 6 digits are the coin designation, the next 2 the grade, the the next 8, I believe are sequential but they assign them as they come in the door, like you says customer submitted lots.  So my seven were numbered all in a row.  And like I say they left off the first 8 digits on the Platinum, all of my coins have barcodes.
Another strange thing is I have opened the blue PCGS box(which they gave me for free for shipping purposes) once in a while before going to a show. But when I decided to sell my US coins instead of my Pandas, I looked at all of these 7 coins with my loup and these all look perfect, except the pr70 Platinum eagle has white spots now, so both of the pr69's look better than the pr70, how is that! That's PCGS.
Oh, and I'll bet you use NGC's numbering system to good use, that is why I hate it.
123panda
 

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2011, 12:47:00 AM »
For about the same money on that loupe, you could get a Belomo, which is much better:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=934.0

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2011, 08:36:21 AM »
Work smarter not harder  :001_smile:
http://www.cointalk.com/t30781/

Offline 123panda

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 09:07:33 AM »
Amazing, that truly was working smarter.  I see no counterdiction of any of the info we came up with.  The random beginning number for each day is very surprising, but if that is what they say, it probably is true.  PGCS truly wants to be unpredictable, so only PCGS know when a Coin was graded.  Whatever works for them, as long as it helps stops counterfeitng of Slabs, is fine with me.
For a person who specializes in certain coins, it would make it easy for them to spots bad numbers to the left and the grade # as well.  The rest is just record keeping and computer power.

Very good find Panda Halves.

123panda

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS certification number patterns
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 12:54:54 PM »
Thanks Panda Halves.