Poll

Generally how do you prefer the state of coins to be stored in your personal collection?

Original Packaging
27 (35.5%)
NGC holders
38 (50%)
PCGS holders
10 (13.2%)
Other
1 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Author Topic: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll  (Read 25864 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2012, 01:10:56 AM »
I think the question is fully justified. The grading services deliberately avoid putting any information on the slab that indicates when it was graded. That way, they can shift their standards around according to fickle market forces, or dodge false accusations that that is what they're doing. For example, in this case, I think they're responding to PCGS's entry into the market, and their reputation for stricter grading.

This is one of the kinds of anomalies that the Coin Compendium will be able to identify, despite efforts to obscure what's really happening. The Coin Compendium's image annotator makes it easy to point out flaws, and any researcher who chooses to focus in this area can easily assemble a study-set of coins in various grades that were entered into the Coin Compendium during different time periods, and then indicate on the coins what flaws are relevant to his particular study.

I've spent a lot of money on 70 grade coins, and I would be very curious to see if my own personal research on the subject can withstand such large-scale public scrutiny. I believe 70 grade coins are typically, on average, better than 69 grade coins. The CC will be able to prove it, if it is really true.

Offline comeaux

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Karma: 61
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2012, 01:21:38 AM »
I think they're responding to PCGS's entry into the market, and their reputation for stricter grading.

I hear this a lot about PCGS being stricter because there are less high grade PCGS Chinese Coins than NGC but the fact is that if a consensus search is done on many of these coins  it is apparent that NGC has graded many more of these coins.

 The percentages are very close on 69 graded coins and on a lot of coins that I checked, PCGS had graded a higher percentage of 69’s than NGC.       

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2012, 01:28:32 AM »
I'm not sure PCGS's reputation for stricter grading is deserved. So far as my limited experience with PCGS has demonstrated to me, it's not that they're necessarily stricter, and not even more consistent - what everyone always says is that they tend to reject coins for grading for much more trivial reasons than NGC. The result is that average PCGS coins tend to look better than average NGC coins, but not necessarily in the same grades. NGC will deduct grade points when PCGS won't even grade it at all.

It will be interesting to see a decent study done on this. There aren't enough PCGS coins in the CC to even begin making comparisons though. The entry rate for NGC vs. PCGS is growing beyond 1000 to 1 so far.

low

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2012, 02:17:11 AM »
It is generally agreed that for old China silver dollar coins, PCGS has tightened up the grading over the last 3 years.

An MS66 dollar coin graded in 2009 may not grade MS66 today. Or, given the same type of MS66 dollar coin, one graded in 2009 and another 2011, offered at the same price. 2011 will sell easily. 2009 may not.

I was thinking it could be collectors are focus more on quality.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
  • Karma: 118
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2012, 02:58:42 AM »
Interestingly I just learned that there are at least some varieties among expo pandas.

For the panda, it is difficult to get the fur the same size and pattern between polishing.  So you can routinely find differenes like these two in the 1999 Beijing Expo:

The first one is NGC 3544327-011
The second one is NGC3544327-012
If you look over the rest of 3544327 (3544325, 3544326, and 3544327 are all 1999 Beijing Expo (as an aside, these 99 coins is about 30% of the existing population)), you can see various shade of differences in the fur pattern.

Offline Thor122

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • Karma: 3
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2012, 12:51:15 PM »
I begin buying omp pandas. But when i learn from silver stackers and ccf forum. I understand the grading advantages (more ncs/ngc than pcgs). Thanks comeaux and tamo. But its very dificult to outsiders usa to grade the coins and the associated risks (shipping lost, damaged coins, shipping costs). But when i saw the ngc69 coins sell for less than omp coins plus grading fees. I begin buying ngc69.
When i have the first graded ngc i like the ngc holder (i can saw the coin, touch in the holder). But in the omp i dont touch or saw a lot because im afraid to damage the coin.
Now im trying to complete the ngc69 panda set. And when i have the opportunity i will grade all my bears.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
  • Karma: 118
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2012, 01:12:22 PM »
Similarly for PCGS graded Imperial/Republic dollar coin.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=234003

This link that low provided is an interesting read.  It is about the PCGS population on April 2010 and again on Feb 15 2012.  The author draws conclusion about the tightening of PCGS grading of the common 1934 Junk dollar.  I'll summarized with a table.  The take away for me:
1.  The explosive growth of the Junk dollar from April 2010 to Feb 2012.
2.  The dominant position of PCGS w.r.t. 1934 Junk.  NGC has a population of 3113 currently

The author also included pictures of a number of PCGS coin holders and the period they were used as a grade guide.

Offline GDG's

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 656
  • Karma: 45
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2012, 03:25:18 PM »
I have 2 1932 Birds over Junk NGC 64's. I love that coin.

Also whatever anyone's preference for encapsulation/grading is fine the more important thing is that it is done for Gold coins especially because 24kt is so soft you do not want to damage your coins.

Offline exchange

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: 20
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2012, 03:59:19 PM »
At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab...


The few vs an Army  :001_smile:

exchange
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:10:27 PM by exchange »

Offline exchange

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: 20
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »
Just as a hypothetical question and not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is the point of a "standard" grading system if the grading standards shift significantly over time? Do slabs need to be time-stamped so we know if they are from an "easy" grade period, or a "tough" one? Does this undercut one of the purposes of grading, so that coins can be traded easily based on grade? I'm concerned that inconsistency will eventually lead to chaos. Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Pandacollector, maybe we finally agreed on something refering to my second sentence.  :001_smile:

This is what I said back in September:

"Is it maybe possible that NGC needed to lower the number of 69's entering the market because of large amounts of new coins waiting to be graded? Using the stricter guidelines cliche is a very good political way of saying it.
I would find it alarming if all of a sudden their guidelines have changed, what does that say for the previously graded coins"


exchange

low

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2012, 07:12:15 PM »
Few things to consider:

1. It is general consensus among the dealer and collector of Imperial/Republic dollar coins that PCGS has actually tightened the grading of these dollar coins in the recent years.

2. Talking about old coins, when the price difference MS65 and MS66 is significantly different (say $10000 apart or much higher), it is only reasonable that TPG give a little more thought and inspection before awarding a coin for MS66.

3. Perhaps it is a collector driven force. Numerical grades play less significant role when coins were offered via public auction. Serious collector will inspect the coin thoroughly before they commit to buy. It is only good if the TPG adapt to the high demand of these high end collectors. There is no point in TPG awarding many MS66 where such coins won't sell in high profile public auction for the reason collectors or dealers think those coins were overgraded.

low

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2012, 07:26:43 PM »
An Interview with NGC chairman Mark Salzberg

Yesterday's AU May be Today's MS Coin

Grading standard is never a static exercise. It evolves over the time as market (collector demand and $$$) evolves. That is healthy, and it happens every where, not only TPG. In the old British grading standard, there is no such thing as UNC. They call coins with no wear as EF. What do they call it today? Still EF? Perhaps no.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
  • Karma: 226
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2012, 11:13:10 PM »
As a long time graded coin collector, I have seen this type of discussion many time during last 30 years. It is known to long time collectors that the grading standard tends to looser during a bull market and tighter during a bear market. This has something to do with the quality of graders. During the bull market, grading companies have to hire more graders who most likely are inexperience and tend to give a higher grade to avoid any complaint from submitters. However, during the bear market, the grading companies have to lay off some graders, usually the inexperience graders will go first. If the bull market can last few years, the grading standard will be tighter due to the experience gained by those Jr. graders.

PCGS has graded imperial and republic coins long before NGC, more than 10 years. There is no question that PCGS has a much better experience in grading imperial and republic coins and PCGS coin definitely has a higher valuation than NGC coin in the market place. This is clearly shown in the Heritage Auction.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2012, 11:36:00 PM »
That's the second time I've noticed you mentioning the grading differences during bear and bull markets, and I enjoy reading it every time. It's a fine bit of wisdom that everyone should be frequently reminded about.

Offline glgehman001

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2012, 05:29:35 AM »
Hi,

Sorry I thought this was about the packaging of the coin and preference.  For Chinese Panda coins (as save for a few Unicorns, the 60th Anniv of Republic and the WWF Silver coins, that is all I have experience with), I much prefer the PCGS packaging for regular coins and the Commemorative packaging for the Commems, some of their artwork and box designs are breathtaking.

As far as grading standards being adjusted due to the number of employees and quality, this is a highly specious argument.  You are assuming there is a substantially finite pool of graders to choose from, and the "good" ones have been snapped up sp all that is left is lesser talented graders.  Both of these companies have significant resources with which to keep on graders during so called "bear" markets as like all economic systems there are Bull times and Bear times, how long they last could at some point be a factor, but I seriously doubt it.  You'll just see longer delay times.  Now, as far as someone sending in 100-10,000 coins at a time to get graded versus someone who had 5 graded, there may be some grade leeway there; however, I believe that due to the number of coins a company see they tend to adjust their grading standards to type and quality, versus the nature of the stampede outside.  Which is why PCGS having a computerized database with which to refer can come in quite useful.

I think both companies do an excellent job, are there mistakes, certainly, is there some bias, potentially, is there a better option?  Not that I know of.  I would highly recommend staying away from some companies, as they slab and sell their own coins (not much research required to find out who, in fact they are horrible at covering their tracks).

Well that's my 2 cents.
G