Poll

Generally how do you prefer the state of coins to be stored in your personal collection?

Original Packaging
27 (35.5%)
NGC holders
38 (50%)
PCGS holders
10 (13.2%)
Other
1 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Author Topic: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll  (Read 27938 times)

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Coinslinger

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2011, 02:39:16 AM »
Yes.... I couldn't agree more. We NEED at least a third MAJOR grading service to rival the big two.  ANACS now has the grading talent to be just that, but paradigms are hard to shake. Some years back I thought ICG had the potential to step up but we all know that sad story.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2011, 02:43:44 AM »
[quote author=Coinslinger link=topic=3689.msg23545#msg23545
PCGS is without question the better service/holder/grader, however you want to say it.  PCGS coins command more $, plain and simple.
[/quote]

Exclusive of yourself 10% of forum members seem to agree.  :001_smile:
Actually, the PCGS premiums are diminishing for China coins and we are even beginning to see NGC premiums over PCGS coins in many cases, especially NCS/NGC Chinese coins. Te trend is your friend.

Coinslinger

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2011, 03:10:30 AM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.  

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2011, 06:29:14 AM »
Yes.... I couldn't agree more. We NEED at least a third MAJOR grading service to rival the big two.  ANACS now has the grading talent to be just that, but paradigms are hard to shake. Some years back I thought ICG had the potential to step up but we all know that sad story.

No, dont know.  Do share...

Coinslinger

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2011, 07:01:37 AM »
In early 2002, ICG showed promise as an upcoming elite service.... Then in late 2003, the wheels fell off.  They lost all of their top graders to PCGS, NGC and ANACS, by opting NOT to step up and pay these guys what they were worth, so there was a mass exodus to the other services that would pay them accordingly.  Also, at about the same time, they shelved their plans to report their grading census(Pop. Reports).....again, to save money.  It all back fired and now they have become an afterthought.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.   
How many PCGS 1 oz 2000 gold mirror Pandas have graded 69? Just curious..

Coinslinger

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM »
2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Panda: NGC Census> 67 total coins graded, 52 in MS-69.  PCGS Pop. Report> 31 total coins graded, 16 in MS-69.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2011, 03:01:18 AM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.  

This is simply wrong. PCGS only gets a premium on high end, popular gold modern Chinese coins. They're disadvantaged in every other category. Things are not black and white.

Even in the instance where they get a premium, it's not because it's PCGS grading. It's because the coin is higher quality, due to dealer submission selection bias. If you controlled for coin quality, I'm sure PCGS would factor out of the equation.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2011, 07:15:53 AM »
2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Panda: NGC Census> 67 total coins graded, 52 in MS-69.  PCGS Pop. Report> 31 total coins graded, 16 in MS-69.
Thanks for the info. I have access to the NGC numbers, but not PCGS. 98 total 1 oz mirror's graded so far...

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2011, 07:55:12 PM »
*Resurrect*

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2012, 06:03:23 PM »

At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab, I want to put down a couple thoughts that were in the back of my head for a few months now.  They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4270.0

Having some time to think about this, I felt the problem is due to three factors:
1.  NGC's money-back gurantee
2.  High value of the coins, if graded genuine mint state
3.  many recent sophiscated fakes
Because of these factors NGC is reluctant to assign a MS grade to a high value coin for the tiny fee of $60 (which they've already increased from the $35 fee a year back).  They would assume a large $$$ liability if the coin was found to be a high-tech forgery.

Now go back 10 years to when I purchased these coins.  NGC still have its gurantee, but the coins
were not expensive then, and because of that, there were not many sophiscated fakes.  So had I submitted these coins 10 years ago, it is quite likely they'll receive definitive and good grades. If I am somehow able to establish the pedigree of these coins and prove to the NGC grader that these coins were purchased 10 years back, I think the odd of these coins receive a definitive grade are also improved.

So what has all this to do with MCC?  some of the coins I purchase 10 years back were the 2000 frosted Panda at 2x bullion price.  I'm sure I'll have no problem getting them graded at that time,
but now that they are 15x bullion price, there are several reports by the forum members that they are getting the "Questionable Authenticity" body bag from of the same batch of coins that didn't have any problems before.  Somehow NGC is unable, or more likely unwilling, to grade these coins and therefore assume the liability.  So it is happening now already with a few selected MCC coins.

Now let us roll forward 10 years.  If badon and many CCF members' prediction are correct and we have the MISFORTUNE of 10x rise in MCC coin price, then it is "game on" for the forgers, and some of the forgery will be very very good.  We'll find ourselves in the same situation like today's expensive Imperial/Republic coins.  Either NGC is unwilling to grade them or the grading cost will go thru the roof, probably both.

Let me throw another consideration into the mix.  Many of you know I'm actively researching the
varieties of Historical Figures.  There are numerous variation likely resulted from sloppy polishing of the die.  These variation are not limited to the HF series, it is every where I looked.  Normally there are an abundance of coins, price and submission rise slowly so NGC can study and catch up with these varieties gradually. Oh, but wait, the coin supply are actually very limited, nobody even care about varieties until Peter Anthony wrote his influential Panda book a couple years back, and Panda price simply exploded since.  NGC is not ready for this.  So let say an expensive Pagoda set showed up today and they are not exactly like the previous set, do you suppose NGC will grade them as a different variety of Pagoda and take on the $4500 liability?  No, it is a lot more sensible to not take the $16.50x4 grading fee and return them as "questionable authenticity".  So if you have an expensive rare variety (or have an unusual variety that you don't realize and NGC don't recognize) and waited 10 years to send it in, you may not be happy with the answer.

So I guess you know which camp I'm in.  I say grade them and grade them NOW.  The grading fee is going to go up faster than inflation, and in the future NGC/PCGS may be unwilling to grade even with a higher grading fee.  So what do I do with my numerous HF varieties?  I send them in immediately to establish their pedigree as known varieties while NGC is still willing and the fee is still low.  Yes, $22.50 NCS/NGC rising to $26.50 is still dirt cheap and it won't last. 

OK, I have my bullet-proof radiation suit on, so flame away!

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2012, 06:23:31 PM »
At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab, I want to put down a couple thoughts that were in the back of my head for a few months now.  They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4270.0

Having some time to think about this, I felt the problem is due to three factors:
1.  NGC's money-back gurantee
2.  High value of the coins, if graded genuine mint state
3.  many recent sophiscated fakes
Because of these factors NGC is reluctant to assign a MS grade to a high value coin for the tiny fee of $60 (which they've already increased from the $35 fee a year back).  They would assume a large $$$ liability if the coin was found to be a high-tech forgery.

Now go back 10 years to when I purchased these coins.  NGC still have its gurantee, but the coins
were not expensive then, and because of that, there were not many sophiscated fakes.  So had I submitted these coins 10 years ago, it is quite likely they'll receive definitive and good grades. If I am somehow able to establish the pedigree of these coins and prove to the NGC grader that these coins were purchased 10 years back, I think the odd of these coins receive a definitive grade are also improved.

So what has all this to do with MCC?  some of the coins I purchase 10 years back were the 2000 frosted Panda at 2x bullion price.  I'm sure I'll have no problem getting them graded at that time,
but now that they are 15x bullion price, there are several reports by the forum members that they are getting the "Questionable Authenticity" body bag from of the same batch of coins that didn't have any problems before.  Somehow NGC is unable, or more likely unwilling, to grade these coins and therefore assume the liability.  So it is happening now already with a few selected MCC coins.

Now let us roll forward 10 years.  If badon and many CCF members' prediction are correct and we have the MISFORTUNE of 10x rise in MCC coin price, then it is "game on" for the forgers, and some of the forgery will be very very good.  We'll find ourselves in the same situation like today's expensive Imperial/Republic coins.  Either NGC is unwilling to grade them or the grading cost will go thru the roof, probably both.

Let me throw another consideration into the mix.  Many of you know I'm actively researching the
varieties of Historical Figures.  There are numerous variation likely resulted from sloppy polishing of the die.  These variation are not limited to the HF series, it is every where I looked.  Normally there are an abundance of coins, price and submission rise slowly so NGC can study and catch up with these varieties gradually. Oh, but wait, the coin supply are actually very limited, nobody even care about varieties until Peter Anthony wrote his influential Panda book a couple years back, and Panda price simply exploded since.  NGC is not ready for this.  So let say an expensive Pagoda set showed up today and they are not exactly like the previous set, do you suppose NGC will grade them as a different variety of Pagoda and take on the $4500 liability?  No, it is a lot more sensible to not take the $16.50x4 grading fee and return them as "questionable authenticity".  So if you have an expensive rare variety (or have an unusual variety that you don't realize and NGC don't recognize) and waited 10 years to send it in, you may not be happy with the answer.

So I guess you know which camp I'm in.  I say grade them and grade them NOW.  The grading fee is going to go up faster than inflation, and in the future NGC/PCGS may be unwilling to grade even with a higher grading fee.  So what do I do with my numerous HF varieties?  I send them in immediately to establish their pedigree as known varieties while NGC is still willing and the fee is still low.  Yes, $22.50 NCS/NGC rising to $26.50 is still dirt cheap and it won't last. 

OK, I have my bullet-proof radiation suit on, so flame away!
I totally agree. Inflation is a coming. Get it now or pay more later. Great observation and post!!!

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2012, 06:29:16 PM »
Wow, that is an interesting assessment, and I think there is a lot of merit to it. However, there is now an arms race going on against forgers, and the good guys are the Coin Compendium. Documenting your varieties now in the Coin Compendium will allow you to prove that the variety predates known forgeries. In addition, documenting them when they turn up for sale - with neither the seller nor buyer being aware of its variety - will be solid evidence that the coin is unlikely to be a recent forgery.

But the CC goes further still...

All dies used to produce the coins can be quickly and easily recorded in the CC. Any dies that are not from that known set will be subjected to scrutiny. AND, if there are an unusual number of recent sightings from areas of the world known for forgery manufacture or distribution, it will be an open and shut case - the forgers will be shut out of the market.

NGC's most prominent area of expertise is in grading. In authentication, they rely on a large list of outside experts to help them identify coins that NGC's in-house authorities aren't sure about. It will not be long before NGC will be able to rely on the Coin Compendium for instant info about anything they want to research. Did someone submit a variety no one has noticed before? A quick check of the CC may show that those coins are already owned by many experts who bought them the day they were minted.

One goal of the Coin Compendium is to make it so fast and easy to share information and research, that it will be more expensive to create a good forgery to try to sell to an expert for big money, than it will be to just stick to making low quality forgeries for tourists, that would never fool even a beginning collector.

That is part of the reason access to the Coin Compendium is invitation-only right now. Forgers read this forum, and I'm sure they'd love to read the Coin Compendium too. Once the CC is on its feet, with plenty of data to show, then it is my hope that any forger reading the CC is going to give up on trying to make sophisticated forgeries - it's too expensive to do, and the forgery will be exposed before enough of them can be sold to earn a profit.

One of the greatest tools against counterfeiting is the microscope (electron and optical). They give detailed images of both the die and planchet characteristics that cannot be duplicated in any way whatsoever. Publishing these images will allow anyone to compare their coins to the published microphotos, and instantly determine whether their coin comes from one of the known dies.

Being able to share such detailed information faster than forgers can duplicate it will inevitably ensure that only cheap copies that nobody cares about will be profitable for forgers.

That's the vision, anyway. So far, it's looking good.

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2012, 06:55:41 PM »
They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

Similarly for PCGS graded Imperial/Republic dollar coin.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=234003

tamo42

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2012, 07:04:48 PM »
Interestingly I just learned that there are at least some varieties among expo pandas.