Poll

Generally how do you prefer the state of coins to be stored in your personal collection?

Original Packaging
27 (35.5%)
NGC holders
38 (50%)
PCGS holders
10 (13.2%)
Other
1 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Author Topic: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll  (Read 28468 times)

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Offline Panda Halves

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NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« on: August 11, 2011, 12:49:27 PM »
A great querry posted by pandayo to assess the recommendations of NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging.
I couldn't figure out a way to add a poll to an existing post so I thought I'd expound on the original post by turning it into its own poll. It seems like it would be useful data to have. Perhaps a moderator could merge the two threads.
So...
Here is a poll where you can actually vote on PCGS VS. NGC VS. Original Packaging
Should be interesting to see where the CCF community collectively votes.

Offline buynicething

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 08:41:22 PM »
Good idea for the poll panda halves

Offline mrslick32

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 09:53:22 PM »
This is really interesting.  :thumbup:

I already placed my vote. I hope that someone can put this post in a place where it will be easily accessible.

Offline pandayo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 10:06:11 PM »
interesting and great idea panda halves. As for me, when I buy things off ebay, I love NGC. With the certification feature that they have on their site, it helps people to identify whether it's same coin or not. Sometimes, it's a bit harder though due to different light etc. (Thank you badon for teaching me this!)

As for original packaging, it's surely nice to have some. However, I notice certain seller sometimes re-seal the packaging. As they do that, that's when I notice red spot. (I know red spot is fine but just not a fan of it for now).

tamo42

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 03:14:41 PM »
Put in my vote for NGC slabs. I think they look better than PCGS and I prefer slabs in general so I don't have to worry as much about damaging the coin.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 02:20:21 PM »
90% NGC SLABS ... 10% OMP

I just do not like PCGS slabs at all but that's just me.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 02:41:26 PM »
I like NGC slabs the most
PCGS slabs are OK
Other slabs are slowly crossover to NGC

I would pick an average coin out of each OMP lots and submit it to NGC.  I want to establish the authenticity of each lot, and I want to learn about the grading process.  I rather have slabs than OMP, but it is a cost issue with me:  At the intellectual level I'm fine with grading cost, but at the gut level, it is hard to swallow the fact that cost of grading one Panda is about what I paid for the whole sheet of it 10 years ago.  Ah, I'll come around one of these days.

Offline Pandora

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 02:58:42 PM »
NGC where available, otherwise PCGS.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 03:15:03 PM »
I pinned this at the top of the forum, so everyone can see the results. It should give people a good idea of what the market looks like.

Where is pandayo's original post? We should at least paste a link to that topic here in the replies so people can read up on it. Of course, there are TONS of discussions about the pros and cons of original packaging vs NGC vs PCGS, and I'm sure there will be lots more in the future :)

Offline pandayo

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Offline dobedo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 03:20:41 PM »
OMP. Let coins be what they are, not what they can be.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 09:05:47 PM »
90% NGC SLABS ... 10% OMP

I just do not like PCGS slabs at all but that's just me.
I agree. Plus NGC seems to have a better handle on Chinese coins. I would vote, but I have a 50/50 mix of graded and  original Factory sealed coins..
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 09:16:40 PM by Grip »

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 11:52:14 PM »
No love for PCGS? I thought there would be more PCGS fans than this.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 12:00:53 AM »
PCGS is receiving less physical votes but the ones they do cast carry a 20% premium so it is actually pretty close.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 12:20:22 AM »
PCGS is receiving less physical votes but the ones they do cast carry a 20% premium so it is actually pretty close.

It is probably because people had the impression that PCGS used to be more strict in grading than NGC. Thus, you can have a strategy of buying PCGS graded coins and crossing them over to NGC (where there is a guarantee that the coin will maintain at least the current PCGS grade or it won't cross over). Whether PCGS is more strict than NGC is something beyond my expertise but I prefer NGC slabs and I like the quality of their 69 and 70 graded coins from what I've seen so far.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 12:42:25 AM »
The only complaint I've got about NGC grading is that they often miss hairline scratches. Rumor has it that PCGS is diligent in marking them down. I haven't checked enough PCGS coins to know that for sure. One thing have checked enough to know for sure is that 69 graded NGC coins that have been through NCS can look a lot better than a PCGS graded 69, in both silver and gold, whether there's hairline scratches or not.

tamo42

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 05:55:07 AM »
PCGS is receiving less physical votes but the ones they do cast carry a 20% premium so it is actually pretty close.

I don't think this is true any more.

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 07:23:59 AM »
The only complaint I've got about NGC grading is that they often miss hairline scratches. Rumor has it that PCGS is diligent in marking them down. I haven't checked enough PCGS coins to know that for sure. One thing have checked enough to know for sure is that 69 graded NGC coins that have been through NCS can look a lot better than a PCGS graded 69, in both silver and gold, whether there's hairline scratches or not.

and i'm sure there will soon be a new techonological advancement  at NCS that will make the any coin a grade 70.

exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 07:25:43 AM »
and i'm sure there will soon be a new techonological advancement  at NCS that will make the any coin a grade 70.

exchange

wait they cannot do that, thats bad for business. We just cant have to many grade 70 coins around!

exchange

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 11:52:45 AM »
I just received some NGC 70 coins. They were clearly the best specimens out of all the coins I submitted. None of the other coins were good enough to warrant a 70 grade in my opinion, and nothing could ever possibly force them to warrant a 70 grade.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2011, 11:08:54 AM »
 :thumbup1:

Offline happycoins II

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2011, 07:56:57 PM »
Original package as double sealed with COAs  and boxes is my favorite, but if missing any of them, I would send to NCS and NGC as many as possible (4 shipments of my Chinese modern and Republic coins  have been sent to NCS/NGC during the past 6 months).

However, I am still not sure whether or not I should send high value Chinese silver and gold modern coins, i.e. 5 oz, 12 Oz lunar coins and key gold coins which are not in double sealed condition that having their current value of exceeding the benchmarks of USD 3,000 to NCS for conservation before grading.   

Happycoins 

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 08:19:22 PM »
Nick Brown does it all the time, and he's become far wealthier now because of it.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2011, 07:51:00 PM »
^

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 02:06:10 PM »
I was checking my open orders on NGC online and noticed that one order has “finalized/imaged/shipped”. When I noticed this order had shipped, I also checked the order status and noticed all of the PCGS MS69 coins that I submitted for crossover to NGC holders were rejected and sent back in their original PCGS holders. Since these were all MS69 submissions, I selected MS69 as the minimum grade that I would accept as crossover to NGC.

I just now called NGC and spoke to their customer service about this order and she said the reasoning is that from this point further, NGC will be using stricter guidelines when grading coins.
It kind of sucks because I just submitted (expedited) some gold fractionals last week to complete some sets and I inspected them very closely before submitting, I thought they would all (or most) would be 69’s at the very least. To my disappointment they all came back as 68’s  :(
 
I just thought this may be of some interest to the forum.   

Offline pandayo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2011, 02:17:00 PM »
whaaaattt...I'm sorry to hear than comeaux. Now I see the reason why badon is so PRO NGC.
Thanks badon !!

is little scratch can make it as 68? but comeaux, i told you story from xuhong, didn't i? if that happens to be the case, you know what to do, even i'm not suggesting you do it on your own :p.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2011, 02:20:09 PM »
"I just now called NGC and spoke to their customer service about this order and she said the reasoning is that from this point further, NGC will be using stricter guidelines when grading coins."  

Interesting story. Do you have an exact time and date to the second for this conversation so we can mark it on our numismatic calendars as the definitive turning point in NGC grading standards?

Sorry your coins came back with less than stellar grades.
You aren't the only one. My order of five came back with 2x MS67 coins.

PH

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2011, 02:31:51 PM »
I was checking my open orders on NGC online and noticed that one order has “finalized/imaged/shipped”. When I noticed this order had shipped, I also checked the order status and noticed all of the PCGS MS69 coins that I submitted for crossover to NGC holders were rejected and sent back in their original PCGS holders. Since these were all MS69 submissions, I selected MS69 as the minimum grade that I would accept as crossover to NGC.

I just now called NGC and spoke to their customer service about this order and she said the reasoning is that from this point further, NGC will be using stricter guidelines when grading coins.
It kind of sucks because I just submitted (expedited) some gold fractionals last week to complete some sets and I inspected them very closely before submitting, I thought they would all (or most) would be 69’s at the very least. To my disappointment they all came back as 68’s  :(
 
I just thought this may be of some interest to the forum.   


You all know where I stand when it comes to grading so i'll stop there. Thinking like a business, if to many coins grade with a 69, those 69's will devalue in price just like what the FED is doing to the dollar.

Is it maybe possible that NGC needed to lower the number of 69's entering the market because of large amounts of new coins waiting to be graded? Using the stricter guidelines cliche is a very good political way of saying it.

I would find it alarming if all of a sudden their guidelines have changed, what does that say for the previously graded coins.

sincerely,
exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2011, 02:34:06 PM »
You all know where I stand when it comes to grading so i'll stop there. Thinking like a business, if to many coins grade with a 69, those 69's will devalue in price just like what the FED is doing to the dollar.

Is it maybe possible that NGC needed to lower the number of 69's entering the market because of large amounts of new coins waiting to be graded? Using the stricter guidelines cliche is a very good political way of saying it.

I would find it alarming if all of a sudden their guidelines have changed, what does that say for the previously graded coins.

sincerely,
exchange

Also thats no way to attract more collectors if your guidelines are consistently changing, in fact the opposite will happen.

exchange

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2011, 02:34:27 PM »
PH … Well not a definitive time/date but considering my recent submissions which has been many spread out over the last 6 weeks, the grading changes seems to indicate this “change” probably occurred on or September 2nd

Pandayo I’m not sure Xu Hong’s method would be applicable to these cross-overs I submitted as they were still encapsulated in their holders and those that are not in holders I’m not sure I would risk it … maybe my next trip to China I can see how he does it !
 
Thanks !  :001_smile:    

Offline Pandora

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2011, 02:34:42 PM »
I believe sometime this month, PCGS stopped accepting NGC cross-overs for chinese coins. NGC just might be reciprocating.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 02:51:53 PM »
what does that say for the previously graded coins.
sincerely,
exchange
I honestly think it doesn't change anything ... I'm not a professional grader but think the grading process is already too stringent. I agree with many others here who have said there is very little difference between a 69 and 70 which I believe is many times just the grader. i can say that the 69's I own, I have inspected them very closely before and after I have them graded and for the most part they are flawless and deserving of a 69 or higher.

I guess the price of 69's and 70's just went up !!!

Yes exchange OMP vs Grading has been passionately debated several times here and I have always been of the opinion that there are many examples of coins that should always remain in OMP but at the same time I adamantly support NGC grading for all of the reasons previously mentioned here on the forum.

I guess it all comes down to "whatever floats your boat"

   

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2011, 02:54:06 PM »
NGC just might be reciprocating.
That is more likely the case than not

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2011, 07:13:11 PM »
Interesting when graded coins don't turn out as expected.

exchange

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2011, 07:17:13 PM »
Interesting when graded coins don't turn out as expected.
exchange
Yes you are right it is but then again I'm not a grader (except in my own mind :biggrin:) but yea thats why I do keep some of my coins in OMP, I like to have them in both graded and OMP.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2011, 07:29:18 PM »
Yes you are right it is but then again I'm not a grader (except in my own mind :biggrin:) but yea thats why I do keep some of my coins in OMP, I like to have them in both graded and OMP.
I totally agree. Keep a balance, especially with Proof sets.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2011, 07:39:46 PM »
you know what to do, even i'm not suggesting you do it on your own :p.
wow I tried that on my coin and now the coin is gone, what does that mean? hmmmmm  :confused1:

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2011, 08:12:51 PM »
It could be also interesting when Chinese collectors will come to pick back up some of their Cultural significant coins with a US corporate sticker on it...for my part I keep my own balance intact.
Interesting when graded coins don't turn out as expected.

exchange

Offline pandayo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2011, 12:10:07 AM »
it means the coin is melt. wow sorry to hear that comeaux  :ohmy:

Offline pandayo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2011, 12:31:56 AM »
I got a coin in OMP, there's chip on the plastic (1mm). Should I worry about that? Will it cause my coin to have redspot in the future? I don't plan to grade this coin.
what to do? suggestion?

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2011, 04:31:55 AM »
A memorable quote from a Newbie (Chinese?) here: "Accept and enjoy them as they are" and I would add: even with some authentic red spot or snowball on it! Just store them the right way. Keep your money in your pocket, stay away from this corporate (and their links) "grading bubble". If eventually you sell, the buyer will pay and take the risk for what he wants/likes, not you. IMO.
I got a coin in OMP, there's chip on the plastic (1mm). Should I worry about that? Will it cause my coin to have redspot in the future? I don't plan to grade this coin.
what to do? suggestion?

Offline pandayo

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2011, 08:32:31 AM »
A memorable quote from a Newbie (Chinese?) here: "Accept and enjoy them as they are" and I would add: even with some authentic red spot or snowball on it! Just store them the right way. Keep your money in your pocket, stay away from this corporate (and their links) "grading bubble". If eventually you sell, the buyer will pay and take the risk for what he wants/likes, not you. IMO.

what's snowball? big red spot ?

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2011, 08:37:47 AM »
A round white spot on silver coins.
what's snowball? big red spot ?

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2011, 03:03:48 PM »
I was checking my open orders on NGC online and noticed that one order has “finalized/imaged/shipped”. When I noticed this order had shipped, I also checked the order status and noticed all of the PCGS MS69 coins that I submitted for crossover to NGC holders were rejected and sent back in their original PCGS holders. Since these were all MS69 submissions, I selected MS69 as the minimum grade that I would accept as crossover to NGC.

I just now called NGC and spoke to their customer service about this order and she said the reasoning is that from this point further, NGC will be using stricter guidelines when grading coins.
It kind of sucks because I just submitted (expedited) some gold fractionals last week to complete some sets and I inspected them very closely before submitting, I thought they would all (or most) would be 69’s at the very least. To my disappointment they all came back as 68’s  :(
 
I just thought this may be of some interest to the forum.   

More to add to this story ...

I guess it all depends on who you talk to at NGC and what answer you get …

Ok so the other day when I called NGC about the PCGS MS69 Panda’s that I submitted for crossover, I was told the reason they were not crossed over to NGC at 69 and returned to me because NGC has more stringent guidelines.

Today I call NGC about some other orders I have pending and spoke to Becky in customer service. I am very familiar with Becky as I have talked to her numerous times and she is very knowledgeable and helpful. I decided to ask again about my crossover rejection last week and she adamantly stated that NGC has not changed anything regarding grading as they feel their standard is very high (I agree as well) and that the reason my order was rejected is because it was Chinese coins. She said that NGC is very hesitant now to crossover Chinese coins that have been graded by another service.

I have reason to believe this explanation as Becky at NGC has been there very long, always helpful and seems knowledge every time I have spoken to her. 


Offline r3globe

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2011, 03:10:12 PM »
I thought about the question of OMP vs NGC and my answer in short is: My heart desires the OMP with all the history & "smells" that come with it & My Brain wants the potential of the 69's and 70's !

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2011, 03:49:40 PM »
I decided to ask again about my crossover rejection last week and she adamantly stated that NGC has not changed anything regarding grading as they feel their standard is very high (I agree as well) and that the reason my order was rejected is because it was Chinese coins. She said that NGC is very hesitant now to crossover Chinese coins that have been graded by another service.

yep, translation, to many 69's is bad for business!

exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2011, 05:02:52 PM »
I thought about the question of OMP vs NGC and my answer in short is: My heart desires the OMP with all the history & "smells" that come with it & My Brain wants the potential of the 69's and 70's !

I agree with your heart.

Opening an OMP is a special moment for us OMPiers. Cracking open the packaging, looking, staring and admiring the double sealed coins, feeling the plastic, and then, magically, that delicious, fragrant scent that can only be smelled when the inside of the OMP has been kept away from the rays of the sun for decades.

exchange
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 05:10:57 PM by exchange »

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2011, 04:55:02 AM »
"You're confusing product with process. Most people, when they criticize, whether they like it or hate it, they're talking about product. That's not art, that's the result of art. Art, to whatever degree we can get a handle on (I'm not sure that we really can) is a process. It begins in the heart and the mind with the eyes and hands."
Jeff Melvoin, Northern Exposure, Fish Story, 1994
I thought about the question of OMP vs NGC and my answer in short is: My heart desires the OMP with all the history & "smells" that come with it & My Brain wants the potential of the 69's and 70's !

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2011, 05:30:58 AM »
"Opening an OMP is a special moment for us OMPiers. Cracking open the packaging, looking, staring and admiring the double sealed coins, feeling the plastic, and then, magically, that delicious, fragrant scent that can only be smelled when the inside of the OMP has been kept away from the rays of the sun for decades."
exchange, Chinese Coin Forum, , 2011

Offline dragonfan

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2011, 08:32:04 AM »
edited, sorry
"Opening an OMP is a special moment for us OMPiers. Cracking open the packaging, looking, staring and admiring the double sealed coins, feeling the plastic, and then, magically, that delicious, fragrant scent that can only be smelled when the inside of the OMP has been kept away from the rays of the sun for decades."
Chinese Coin Forum, , 2011
"Opening an OMP is a special moment for us OMPiers. Cracking open the packaging, looking, staring and admiring the double sealed coins, feeling the plastic, and then, magically, that delicious, fragrant scent that can only be smelled when the inside of the OMP has been kept away from the rays of the sun for decades."
exchange, Chinese Coin Forum, , 2011

Offline Bearcat

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2011, 05:12:39 PM »
I just hope when you get a whiff of the "fragrant scent", you don't sneeze on it!

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2011, 05:16:07 PM »
My Brain wants the potential of the 69's and 70's !
Following your brain is always the smartest decision. :001_smile:

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2011, 08:35:31 PM »
whaaaattt...I'm sorry to hear than comeaux. Now I see the reason why badon is so PRO NGC.
Thanks badon !!

Any time!

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 08:43:37 PM »
You know, I'm not to concerned about the particular grading standard used, so long as the grading service applies it consistently. I have studied NGC grading very closely, and found that their consistency is pretty incredibly impressive. It takes me several hours to thoroughly grade and divide up a few hundred coins according to their quality, but NGC does the same thing within minutes, for a lot less than I would charge you :) In exchange for that speed, NGC sacrifices only a very low error rate.

If modern Chinese coins came in "archival quality" packaging, and they were all produced with consistent quality, I would be less interested in conservation and grading. But, since the packaging is corrosive, and the quality of the coins they release varies wildly, the grading services are needed to independently sort out the good from the bad.

As always, you should buy the coin, not the slab, so it's in your best interest to learn what a 69 is supposed to look like. That's easy to do if you don't try to learn grading, but instead just learn what only one grade (69) is supposed to look like. Then, you can buy graded or original coins, with nearly equal skill.

You can send in your raw coins for grading and earn a profit from the majority of collectors and investors who are not able to distinguish coin grades. Your skill in grading will save you money on submission costs, and you'll be rewarded profitably for helping out everyone else who needs to buy graded coins to ensure they get what they're told they're getting.

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 08:53:44 PM »

You can send in your raw coins for grading and earn a profit from the majority of collectors and investors who are not able to distinguish coin grades.

The way I see it,

You can send in your raw coins for grading and earn a profit from the majority of American collectors and American investors who are not able to distinguish coin grades as the rest of the world has no real interest in them.

exchange
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:05:37 PM by exchange »

Offline Pandad

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2011, 11:14:49 PM »
I'll take all my coins NCS/NGC MS69 or better please.  Every piece of art needs a great frame.

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2011, 12:54:24 AM »
I'll take all my coins NCS/NGC MS69 or better please.  Every piece of art needs a great frame.

Well said. I completely agree.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2011, 03:41:08 AM »
Every piece of art needs a great frame.

That's a great way to put it.

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2011, 02:05:45 AM »
This isn't even a contest... I use both grading services and have great relationships with both... BUT, PCGS is without question the better service/holder/grader, however you want to say it.  PCGS coins command more $, plain and simple. They are MUCH more consistent at grading coins of ANY type.

Something to ponder: If the rumors are true, sometime in 2012 PCGS is going to pull that big right arm out from behind it's back and introduce their own CONSERVATION service(they already offer spot removing), when and if that happens, then it's game over.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2011, 02:23:48 AM »
That will be an exciting development. NGC is pretty good, but having PCGS give them a serious run for their money will just make the whole marketplace better overall. I would like to see ANACS improve into a world-class grading service also.

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2011, 02:39:16 AM »
Yes.... I couldn't agree more. We NEED at least a third MAJOR grading service to rival the big two.  ANACS now has the grading talent to be just that, but paradigms are hard to shake. Some years back I thought ICG had the potential to step up but we all know that sad story.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2011, 02:43:44 AM »
[quote author=Coinslinger link=topic=3689.msg23545#msg23545
PCGS is without question the better service/holder/grader, however you want to say it.  PCGS coins command more $, plain and simple.
[/quote]

Exclusive of yourself 10% of forum members seem to agree.  :001_smile:
Actually, the PCGS premiums are diminishing for China coins and we are even beginning to see NGC premiums over PCGS coins in many cases, especially NCS/NGC Chinese coins. Te trend is your friend.

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2011, 03:10:30 AM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.  

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2011, 06:29:14 AM »
Yes.... I couldn't agree more. We NEED at least a third MAJOR grading service to rival the big two.  ANACS now has the grading talent to be just that, but paradigms are hard to shake. Some years back I thought ICG had the potential to step up but we all know that sad story.

No, dont know.  Do share...

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2011, 07:01:37 AM »
In early 2002, ICG showed promise as an upcoming elite service.... Then in late 2003, the wheels fell off.  They lost all of their top graders to PCGS, NGC and ANACS, by opting NOT to step up and pay these guys what they were worth, so there was a mass exodus to the other services that would pay them accordingly.  Also, at about the same time, they shelved their plans to report their grading census(Pop. Reports).....again, to save money.  It all back fired and now they have become an afterthought.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.   
How many PCGS 1 oz 2000 gold mirror Pandas have graded 69? Just curious..

Coinslinger

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2011, 01:45:06 AM »
2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Panda: NGC Census> 67 total coins graded, 52 in MS-69.  PCGS Pop. Report> 31 total coins graded, 16 in MS-69.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2011, 03:01:18 AM »
I don't care what percentage of this forum sides with who.... this isn't a debate 'Panda Halves', stats/facts don't lie... If anything, PCGS has further distanced itself from NGC.  Both Heritage and Stacks/Bowers have recently stated that PCGS coins continue to outperform NGC coins @ auction.  I sell hundreds of both on a monthly basis, and coin for coin, PCGS coins command significantly higher premiums.  A prime example: Within the last two weeks, I sold two 2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Pandas... one conserved and graded by NCS/NGC @ MS-69 and a PCGS MS-69.... the NCS/NGC coin sold for $8295.00, the PCGS coin sold for $10,750.00.

To a Man, quietly and privately, NGC will begrudgingly admit that PCGS is pulling away. They are HORRIFIED at the prospect of PCGS's plan to implement a full fledged conservation program. Like I said, there is no debate here.... and the only trend is that of PCGS's continued dominance of the MCC market... NGC may grade more coins, but PCGS coins will ALWAYS command more $ and respect.

CASE CLOSED.  

This is simply wrong. PCGS only gets a premium on high end, popular gold modern Chinese coins. They're disadvantaged in every other category. Things are not black and white.

Even in the instance where they get a premium, it's not because it's PCGS grading. It's because the coin is higher quality, due to dealer submission selection bias. If you controlled for coin quality, I'm sure PCGS would factor out of the equation.

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2011, 07:15:53 AM »
2000 100Y Gold 1 oz. Mirrored Panda: NGC Census> 67 total coins graded, 52 in MS-69.  PCGS Pop. Report> 31 total coins graded, 16 in MS-69.
Thanks for the info. I have access to the NGC numbers, but not PCGS. 98 total 1 oz mirror's graded so far...

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2011, 07:55:12 PM »
*Resurrect*

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2012, 06:03:23 PM »

At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab, I want to put down a couple thoughts that were in the back of my head for a few months now.  They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4270.0

Having some time to think about this, I felt the problem is due to three factors:
1.  NGC's money-back gurantee
2.  High value of the coins, if graded genuine mint state
3.  many recent sophiscated fakes
Because of these factors NGC is reluctant to assign a MS grade to a high value coin for the tiny fee of $60 (which they've already increased from the $35 fee a year back).  They would assume a large $$$ liability if the coin was found to be a high-tech forgery.

Now go back 10 years to when I purchased these coins.  NGC still have its gurantee, but the coins
were not expensive then, and because of that, there were not many sophiscated fakes.  So had I submitted these coins 10 years ago, it is quite likely they'll receive definitive and good grades. If I am somehow able to establish the pedigree of these coins and prove to the NGC grader that these coins were purchased 10 years back, I think the odd of these coins receive a definitive grade are also improved.

So what has all this to do with MCC?  some of the coins I purchase 10 years back were the 2000 frosted Panda at 2x bullion price.  I'm sure I'll have no problem getting them graded at that time,
but now that they are 15x bullion price, there are several reports by the forum members that they are getting the "Questionable Authenticity" body bag from of the same batch of coins that didn't have any problems before.  Somehow NGC is unable, or more likely unwilling, to grade these coins and therefore assume the liability.  So it is happening now already with a few selected MCC coins.

Now let us roll forward 10 years.  If badon and many CCF members' prediction are correct and we have the MISFORTUNE of 10x rise in MCC coin price, then it is "game on" for the forgers, and some of the forgery will be very very good.  We'll find ourselves in the same situation like today's expensive Imperial/Republic coins.  Either NGC is unwilling to grade them or the grading cost will go thru the roof, probably both.

Let me throw another consideration into the mix.  Many of you know I'm actively researching the
varieties of Historical Figures.  There are numerous variation likely resulted from sloppy polishing of the die.  These variation are not limited to the HF series, it is every where I looked.  Normally there are an abundance of coins, price and submission rise slowly so NGC can study and catch up with these varieties gradually. Oh, but wait, the coin supply are actually very limited, nobody even care about varieties until Peter Anthony wrote his influential Panda book a couple years back, and Panda price simply exploded since.  NGC is not ready for this.  So let say an expensive Pagoda set showed up today and they are not exactly like the previous set, do you suppose NGC will grade them as a different variety of Pagoda and take on the $4500 liability?  No, it is a lot more sensible to not take the $16.50x4 grading fee and return them as "questionable authenticity".  So if you have an expensive rare variety (or have an unusual variety that you don't realize and NGC don't recognize) and waited 10 years to send it in, you may not be happy with the answer.

So I guess you know which camp I'm in.  I say grade them and grade them NOW.  The grading fee is going to go up faster than inflation, and in the future NGC/PCGS may be unwilling to grade even with a higher grading fee.  So what do I do with my numerous HF varieties?  I send them in immediately to establish their pedigree as known varieties while NGC is still willing and the fee is still low.  Yes, $22.50 NCS/NGC rising to $26.50 is still dirt cheap and it won't last. 

OK, I have my bullet-proof radiation suit on, so flame away!

Offline Grip

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2012, 06:23:31 PM »
At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab, I want to put down a couple thoughts that were in the back of my head for a few months now.  They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4270.0

Having some time to think about this, I felt the problem is due to three factors:
1.  NGC's money-back gurantee
2.  High value of the coins, if graded genuine mint state
3.  many recent sophiscated fakes
Because of these factors NGC is reluctant to assign a MS grade to a high value coin for the tiny fee of $60 (which they've already increased from the $35 fee a year back).  They would assume a large $$$ liability if the coin was found to be a high-tech forgery.

Now go back 10 years to when I purchased these coins.  NGC still have its gurantee, but the coins
were not expensive then, and because of that, there were not many sophiscated fakes.  So had I submitted these coins 10 years ago, it is quite likely they'll receive definitive and good grades. If I am somehow able to establish the pedigree of these coins and prove to the NGC grader that these coins were purchased 10 years back, I think the odd of these coins receive a definitive grade are also improved.

So what has all this to do with MCC?  some of the coins I purchase 10 years back were the 2000 frosted Panda at 2x bullion price.  I'm sure I'll have no problem getting them graded at that time,
but now that they are 15x bullion price, there are several reports by the forum members that they are getting the "Questionable Authenticity" body bag from of the same batch of coins that didn't have any problems before.  Somehow NGC is unable, or more likely unwilling, to grade these coins and therefore assume the liability.  So it is happening now already with a few selected MCC coins.

Now let us roll forward 10 years.  If badon and many CCF members' prediction are correct and we have the MISFORTUNE of 10x rise in MCC coin price, then it is "game on" for the forgers, and some of the forgery will be very very good.  We'll find ourselves in the same situation like today's expensive Imperial/Republic coins.  Either NGC is unwilling to grade them or the grading cost will go thru the roof, probably both.

Let me throw another consideration into the mix.  Many of you know I'm actively researching the
varieties of Historical Figures.  There are numerous variation likely resulted from sloppy polishing of the die.  These variation are not limited to the HF series, it is every where I looked.  Normally there are an abundance of coins, price and submission rise slowly so NGC can study and catch up with these varieties gradually. Oh, but wait, the coin supply are actually very limited, nobody even care about varieties until Peter Anthony wrote his influential Panda book a couple years back, and Panda price simply exploded since.  NGC is not ready for this.  So let say an expensive Pagoda set showed up today and they are not exactly like the previous set, do you suppose NGC will grade them as a different variety of Pagoda and take on the $4500 liability?  No, it is a lot more sensible to not take the $16.50x4 grading fee and return them as "questionable authenticity".  So if you have an expensive rare variety (or have an unusual variety that you don't realize and NGC don't recognize) and waited 10 years to send it in, you may not be happy with the answer.

So I guess you know which camp I'm in.  I say grade them and grade them NOW.  The grading fee is going to go up faster than inflation, and in the future NGC/PCGS may be unwilling to grade even with a higher grading fee.  So what do I do with my numerous HF varieties?  I send them in immediately to establish their pedigree as known varieties while NGC is still willing and the fee is still low.  Yes, $22.50 NCS/NGC rising to $26.50 is still dirt cheap and it won't last. 

OK, I have my bullet-proof radiation suit on, so flame away!
I totally agree. Inflation is a coming. Get it now or pay more later. Great observation and post!!!

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2012, 06:29:16 PM »
Wow, that is an interesting assessment, and I think there is a lot of merit to it. However, there is now an arms race going on against forgers, and the good guys are the Coin Compendium. Documenting your varieties now in the Coin Compendium will allow you to prove that the variety predates known forgeries. In addition, documenting them when they turn up for sale - with neither the seller nor buyer being aware of its variety - will be solid evidence that the coin is unlikely to be a recent forgery.

But the CC goes further still...

All dies used to produce the coins can be quickly and easily recorded in the CC. Any dies that are not from that known set will be subjected to scrutiny. AND, if there are an unusual number of recent sightings from areas of the world known for forgery manufacture or distribution, it will be an open and shut case - the forgers will be shut out of the market.

NGC's most prominent area of expertise is in grading. In authentication, they rely on a large list of outside experts to help them identify coins that NGC's in-house authorities aren't sure about. It will not be long before NGC will be able to rely on the Coin Compendium for instant info about anything they want to research. Did someone submit a variety no one has noticed before? A quick check of the CC may show that those coins are already owned by many experts who bought them the day they were minted.

One goal of the Coin Compendium is to make it so fast and easy to share information and research, that it will be more expensive to create a good forgery to try to sell to an expert for big money, than it will be to just stick to making low quality forgeries for tourists, that would never fool even a beginning collector.

That is part of the reason access to the Coin Compendium is invitation-only right now. Forgers read this forum, and I'm sure they'd love to read the Coin Compendium too. Once the CC is on its feet, with plenty of data to show, then it is my hope that any forger reading the CC is going to give up on trying to make sophisticated forgeries - it's too expensive to do, and the forgery will be exposed before enough of them can be sold to earn a profit.

One of the greatest tools against counterfeiting is the microscope (electron and optical). They give detailed images of both the die and planchet characteristics that cannot be duplicated in any way whatsoever. Publishing these images will allow anyone to compare their coins to the published microphotos, and instantly determine whether their coin comes from one of the known dies.

Being able to share such detailed information faster than forgers can duplicate it will inevitably ensure that only cheap copies that nobody cares about will be profitable for forgers.

That's the vision, anyway. So far, it's looking good.

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2012, 06:55:41 PM »
They are the result of my disappointment with NGC in grading the more valuable Imperial/Republic coins.

Similarly for PCGS graded Imperial/Republic dollar coin.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=234003

tamo42

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2012, 07:04:48 PM »
Interestingly I just learned that there are at least some varieties among expo pandas.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2012, 10:23:23 PM »
Very good post SANDAC ... great observations and I totally agree 1000 % !!!


Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2012, 10:28:11 PM »
Nobody probably remembers a post I made about 6 months ago (September & October) regarding increased scrutiny in NGC grading but it has definitely happened as I was told by NGC it would when I called back then questioning some grades.

At that time they wouldn’t even cross over some PCGS 69’s that I submitted.   

Offline dragondollar

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2012, 10:34:42 PM »
In mainland China the trend has changed too. Before there was a sizeable majority of collectors that did not give a damn about slabs, but now even the most reluctant send their coins to be slabbed. PCGS is a favourite for imperial/republic coins. I wish they had better holders...

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2012, 10:44:20 PM »
Hi Dragondollar,

Are there any dealer who sells PCGS graded imperial/republic coins in mainland China that will ship coins to oversea buyer?

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2012, 10:49:04 PM »
Thank you all for your very insightful info. I inherited a number of MCC and now I am going to get them sent in to NGC asap for conservation and grading. I prefer PCGS for a lot of coins but I like the fact that Ngc does conservation were I don't see were Pcgs does. For this reason Ngc wins out for me.

Thanks again for your great info.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2012, 10:58:35 PM »
Nobody probably remembers a post I made about 6 months ago (September & October) regarding increased scrutiny in NGC grading but it has definitely happened as I was told by NGC it would when I called back then questioning some grades.

At that time they wouldn’t even cross over some PCGS 69’s that I submitted.   

I remember it very well, and so many people are talking about it now, I'm sure it was you that started to spread the word. Now it's considered common knowledge that you're just supposed to know, like comeaux.

In mainland China the trend has changed too. Before there was a sizeable majority of collectors that did not give a damn about slabs, but now even the most reluctant send their coins to be slabbed. PCGS is a favourite for imperial/republic coins. I wish they had better holders...

It's amazing how fast things change. LBC has been beating the grading drums loud enough and long enough that it seems even China can't ignore it anymore. Everything worth grading is probably going to get graded eventually.

Thank you all for your very insightful info. I inherited a number of MCC and now I am going to get them sent in to NGC asap for conservation and grading. I prefer PCGS for a lot of coins but I like the fact that Ngc does conservation were I don't see were Pcgs does. For this reason Ngc wins out for me.

Thanks again for your great info.

I'm pleased to see PCGS trying to catch up with NGC. I'm skeptical that they will ever have the humility to do what it takes to rise to an equal level with NGC, but you never know...The only thing that's certain is that it would be good for everyone in this market if they did. I'm rooting for them, but still buying only NGC.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2012, 11:13:59 PM »
*Excellent work SANDAC,
$26.50 for NCS conservation plus NGC grading and slabbing is indeed a good deal.
I have recently started getting a few 1/20 gold pandas graded. In the past it wasn’t economical to grade silver 1oz and 1/20 gold pandas, but the rising price of precious metals and increase in numismatic premiums has made it economically viable to conserve many pandas that were formerly not worth grading.
 
*comeaux,
I remember that post of yours about NGC becoming suddenly more discriminate...
At the time you wrote it I was very skeptical.
I even questioned the validity of your assertion privately with another forum member….
Now I see that you were indeed correct.
It appears that there have been more Sub-MS68 gold pandas graded by NGC since November than for the entire year previous.
They are indeed discriminating more. No longer do you see blanket 69 grades for Chinese coins that don't deserve them. (This applies to both the big dealers and individuals with small submissions)
We know there was a hiring spree at NGC and diversity plus greater numbers of graders allows for more time and discrimination.

*dragondollar,
Graded Chinese coins are the trend.
Again: Don't fight the trend.

*On a side-note:
Here we are with 69 people having taken this poll and we are one shy of 50% in favor of NGC. I’d be interested to know who the one person was that selected “other” as their preferred storage method and what that method was.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2012, 11:23:09 PM »
Low > Well, it depends on which coin you are looking for. Slabbed coins are not a majority yet: lesser coins are sold raw, while anything MS is getting slabbed.

Badon > Actually one thing I like with the "new PCGS" is that they are becoming better at acknowledging varieties. I have seen holders with the chinese name of the variety of YSK dollars, for example, while NGC sticks to Kann and L&M, which are starting to look quite coarse.

I plan on getting my whole collection slabbed in April at the HK exhibition, it's just too bad that for some reason PCGS is not able to come with a slab that allows to see the edge. Their slabs seriously look like crap compared to NGC.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2012, 11:45:45 PM »
Here is a PCGS edge viewable holder.


low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2012, 12:02:42 AM »
*On a side-note:
Here we are with 69 people having taken this poll and we are one shy of 50% in favor of NGC. I’d be interested to know who the one person was that selected “other” as their preferred storage method and what that method was.

Just saying a couple of possibilities :)

1. One who collect old coins and store them in 2x2 holder or saflip.
2. One who like to cut open the OMP and handle coin with bare hand. I read many chinese collector love to do it this way.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2012, 12:09:23 AM »
2. One who like to cut open the OMP and handle coin with bare hand. I read many chinese collector love to do it this way.

And the high grade coins become rarer and rarer. It only takes 50 years of those kinds of collectors to totally destroy a coin. The same coin would remain nearly pristine for 2000 years (3000? 4000? 10000?) at the bottom of a garbage dump.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2012, 12:18:14 AM »
At that same time months ago that I mentioned NGC getting stricter on grading, I also mentioned the fact that NGC was also getting stricter on cross-overs as well.

Historically I could buy a graded coin then send it to NGC to remove it from its crappy PCGS holder and easily keep the same grade. Well that also changed about the time NGC toughened up on grading MCC’s as I had sent in a few MS69’s in PCGS holders to get crossed over and listed “69” as a “minimum” grade but this time NGC sent them ALL BACK without crossing any of them over.

Most of these particular MCC PCGS 69’s that were returned where not extremely valuable so I just tossed them in the safe and figured I would hold them for a while. Well two weeks ago I decided to bust them out of their PCGS holders and resubmit them along with a few other NGC coins that had graded 68 without conservation.

Now I’m interested to see what the original PCGS 69’s that I busted out come back graded as now and also what the NGC 68’s come back graded as now that I have conserved them.

I will post the results when I get them. 

Glad I graded 90% of my silver, gold & platinum collection over the last year … viva la 69’s !!!  :w00t:     

Offline dragondollar

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2012, 12:28:18 AM »
PandaOrLunar > Is it possible to order this kind of holders for dollar-sized imperial coins? (they have to go through secure+). For now I only have seen "traditional" holders for secure+ dollars :(

Online PandaCollector

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2012, 12:47:13 AM »
Just as a hypothetical question and not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is the point of a "standard" grading system if the grading standards shift significantly over time? Do slabs need to be time-stamped so we know if they are from an "easy" grade period, or a "tough" one? Does this undercut one of the purposes of grading, so that coins can be traded easily based on grade? I'm concerned that inconsistency will eventually lead to chaos. Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »
I think that possibly some coins that could grade 69 right now may be given 68 grades (not all but some) because of tougher standards but honestly the majority of 69’s that I own and have seen being sold are very nice coins and deservedly graded 69 or 70.

I feel the concerns of the collector are for the most part being addressed and that is that they are receiving coins that are validated as “authentic” and are very nice looking coins.

Nothing will be perfect …

What may happen in the future is that collectors will be more apprehensive to acquire high value coins in OMP as it may be more difficult to grade them or even sell them in OMP.

It’s just a thought …    

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2012, 01:10:56 AM »
I think the question is fully justified. The grading services deliberately avoid putting any information on the slab that indicates when it was graded. That way, they can shift their standards around according to fickle market forces, or dodge false accusations that that is what they're doing. For example, in this case, I think they're responding to PCGS's entry into the market, and their reputation for stricter grading.

This is one of the kinds of anomalies that the Coin Compendium will be able to identify, despite efforts to obscure what's really happening. The Coin Compendium's image annotator makes it easy to point out flaws, and any researcher who chooses to focus in this area can easily assemble a study-set of coins in various grades that were entered into the Coin Compendium during different time periods, and then indicate on the coins what flaws are relevant to his particular study.

I've spent a lot of money on 70 grade coins, and I would be very curious to see if my own personal research on the subject can withstand such large-scale public scrutiny. I believe 70 grade coins are typically, on average, better than 69 grade coins. The CC will be able to prove it, if it is really true.

Offline comeaux

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2012, 01:21:38 AM »
I think they're responding to PCGS's entry into the market, and their reputation for stricter grading.

I hear this a lot about PCGS being stricter because there are less high grade PCGS Chinese Coins than NGC but the fact is that if a consensus search is done on many of these coins  it is apparent that NGC has graded many more of these coins.

 The percentages are very close on 69 graded coins and on a lot of coins that I checked, PCGS had graded a higher percentage of 69’s than NGC.       

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2012, 01:28:32 AM »
I'm not sure PCGS's reputation for stricter grading is deserved. So far as my limited experience with PCGS has demonstrated to me, it's not that they're necessarily stricter, and not even more consistent - what everyone always says is that they tend to reject coins for grading for much more trivial reasons than NGC. The result is that average PCGS coins tend to look better than average NGC coins, but not necessarily in the same grades. NGC will deduct grade points when PCGS won't even grade it at all.

It will be interesting to see a decent study done on this. There aren't enough PCGS coins in the CC to even begin making comparisons though. The entry rate for NGC vs. PCGS is growing beyond 1000 to 1 so far.

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2012, 02:17:11 AM »
It is generally agreed that for old China silver dollar coins, PCGS has tightened up the grading over the last 3 years.

An MS66 dollar coin graded in 2009 may not grade MS66 today. Or, given the same type of MS66 dollar coin, one graded in 2009 and another 2011, offered at the same price. 2011 will sell easily. 2009 may not.

I was thinking it could be collectors are focus more on quality.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2012, 02:58:42 AM »
Interestingly I just learned that there are at least some varieties among expo pandas.

For the panda, it is difficult to get the fur the same size and pattern between polishing.  So you can routinely find differenes like these two in the 1999 Beijing Expo:

The first one is NGC 3544327-011
The second one is NGC3544327-012
If you look over the rest of 3544327 (3544325, 3544326, and 3544327 are all 1999 Beijing Expo (as an aside, these 99 coins is about 30% of the existing population)), you can see various shade of differences in the fur pattern.

Offline Thor122

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2012, 12:51:15 PM »
I begin buying omp pandas. But when i learn from silver stackers and ccf forum. I understand the grading advantages (more ncs/ngc than pcgs). Thanks comeaux and tamo. But its very dificult to outsiders usa to grade the coins and the associated risks (shipping lost, damaged coins, shipping costs). But when i saw the ngc69 coins sell for less than omp coins plus grading fees. I begin buying ngc69.
When i have the first graded ngc i like the ngc holder (i can saw the coin, touch in the holder). But in the omp i dont touch or saw a lot because im afraid to damage the coin.
Now im trying to complete the ngc69 panda set. And when i have the opportunity i will grade all my bears.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2012, 01:12:22 PM »
Similarly for PCGS graded Imperial/Republic dollar coin.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=234003

This link that low provided is an interesting read.  It is about the PCGS population on April 2010 and again on Feb 15 2012.  The author draws conclusion about the tightening of PCGS grading of the common 1934 Junk dollar.  I'll summarized with a table.  The take away for me:
1.  The explosive growth of the Junk dollar from April 2010 to Feb 2012.
2.  The dominant position of PCGS w.r.t. 1934 Junk.  NGC has a population of 3113 currently

The author also included pictures of a number of PCGS coin holders and the period they were used as a grade guide.

Offline GDG's

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2012, 03:25:18 PM »
I have 2 1932 Birds over Junk NGC 64's. I love that coin.

Also whatever anyone's preference for encapsulation/grading is fine the more important thing is that it is done for Gold coins especially because 24kt is so soft you do not want to damage your coins.

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2012, 03:59:19 PM »
At the risk of restarting an all-out thermal nuclear war on OMP vs slab...


The few vs an Army  :001_smile:

exchange
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:10:27 PM by exchange »

Offline exchange

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »
Just as a hypothetical question and not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is the point of a "standard" grading system if the grading standards shift significantly over time? Do slabs need to be time-stamped so we know if they are from an "easy" grade period, or a "tough" one? Does this undercut one of the purposes of grading, so that coins can be traded easily based on grade? I'm concerned that inconsistency will eventually lead to chaos. Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Pandacollector, maybe we finally agreed on something refering to my second sentence.  :001_smile:

This is what I said back in September:

"Is it maybe possible that NGC needed to lower the number of 69's entering the market because of large amounts of new coins waiting to be graded? Using the stricter guidelines cliche is a very good political way of saying it.
I would find it alarming if all of a sudden their guidelines have changed, what does that say for the previously graded coins"


exchange

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2012, 07:12:15 PM »
Few things to consider:

1. It is general consensus among the dealer and collector of Imperial/Republic dollar coins that PCGS has actually tightened the grading of these dollar coins in the recent years.

2. Talking about old coins, when the price difference MS65 and MS66 is significantly different (say $10000 apart or much higher), it is only reasonable that TPG give a little more thought and inspection before awarding a coin for MS66.

3. Perhaps it is a collector driven force. Numerical grades play less significant role when coins were offered via public auction. Serious collector will inspect the coin thoroughly before they commit to buy. It is only good if the TPG adapt to the high demand of these high end collectors. There is no point in TPG awarding many MS66 where such coins won't sell in high profile public auction for the reason collectors or dealers think those coins were overgraded.

low

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2012, 07:26:43 PM »
An Interview with NGC chairman Mark Salzberg

Yesterday's AU May be Today's MS Coin

Grading standard is never a static exercise. It evolves over the time as market (collector demand and $$$) evolves. That is healthy, and it happens every where, not only TPG. In the old British grading standard, there is no such thing as UNC. They call coins with no wear as EF. What do they call it today? Still EF? Perhaps no.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2012, 11:13:10 PM »
As a long time graded coin collector, I have seen this type of discussion many time during last 30 years. It is known to long time collectors that the grading standard tends to looser during a bull market and tighter during a bear market. This has something to do with the quality of graders. During the bull market, grading companies have to hire more graders who most likely are inexperience and tend to give a higher grade to avoid any complaint from submitters. However, during the bear market, the grading companies have to lay off some graders, usually the inexperience graders will go first. If the bull market can last few years, the grading standard will be tighter due to the experience gained by those Jr. graders.

PCGS has graded imperial and republic coins long before NGC, more than 10 years. There is no question that PCGS has a much better experience in grading imperial and republic coins and PCGS coin definitely has a higher valuation than NGC coin in the market place. This is clearly shown in the Heritage Auction.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2012, 11:36:00 PM »
That's the second time I've noticed you mentioning the grading differences during bear and bull markets, and I enjoy reading it every time. It's a fine bit of wisdom that everyone should be frequently reminded about.

Offline glgehman001

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2012, 05:29:35 AM »
Hi,

Sorry I thought this was about the packaging of the coin and preference.  For Chinese Panda coins (as save for a few Unicorns, the 60th Anniv of Republic and the WWF Silver coins, that is all I have experience with), I much prefer the PCGS packaging for regular coins and the Commemorative packaging for the Commems, some of their artwork and box designs are breathtaking.

As far as grading standards being adjusted due to the number of employees and quality, this is a highly specious argument.  You are assuming there is a substantially finite pool of graders to choose from, and the "good" ones have been snapped up sp all that is left is lesser talented graders.  Both of these companies have significant resources with which to keep on graders during so called "bear" markets as like all economic systems there are Bull times and Bear times, how long they last could at some point be a factor, but I seriously doubt it.  You'll just see longer delay times.  Now, as far as someone sending in 100-10,000 coins at a time to get graded versus someone who had 5 graded, there may be some grade leeway there; however, I believe that due to the number of coins a company see they tend to adjust their grading standards to type and quality, versus the nature of the stampede outside.  Which is why PCGS having a computerized database with which to refer can come in quite useful.

I think both companies do an excellent job, are there mistakes, certainly, is there some bias, potentially, is there a better option?  Not that I know of.  I would highly recommend staying away from some companies, as they slab and sell their own coins (not much research required to find out who, in fact they are horrible at covering their tracks).

Well that's my 2 cents.
G

Offline 25Grizzlies

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #105 on: February 29, 2012, 01:56:36 AM »

[/quote]
A memorable quote from a Newbie (Chinese?) here: "Accept and enjoy them as they are" and I would add: even with some authentic red spot or snowball on it! Just store them the right way. Keep your money in your pocket, stay away from this corporate (and their links) "grading bubble". If eventually you sell, the buyer will pay and take the risk for what he wants/likes, not you. IMO.

I couldn't agree more... OMP for me.

Offline 25Grizzlies

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #106 on: February 29, 2012, 03:17:09 AM »
I'm new to the Chinese market and am in awe of all you long time collectors and educators so please excuse my ignorance, this is but opinion and observation. 2 cents worth.

The more i think about getting my coins slabbed the more I think it will be with PCGS, especially if they soon offer a conservation service.  I'm still not 100% sure about conserving however and I wish they were more transparent about the process.  I'm OK with cleaning production films and grime off coins, as a painiting is cleaned when it gets too dirty, I think coins are Ok to be cleaned... but if I have a gem looking OMP coin I wouldnt bother getting it cleaned.

So on the PCGS/NGC holder debate it only aesthetics about the PCGS holders that guys on this forum don't like?  A simple case of preference?  Or do they stack funny or what?  I don't understand why the frame is crucial... I don't mind the looks of the PCGS edge view holders but haven't seen any in the flesh.

Talk of stricter grading at NGC is akin to a chess player taking their fingers off a piece and playing it again, it's against the rules.  I won't purchase any NGC slabbed coins or get my coins graded there as my small way of protest.

tamo42

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #107 on: February 29, 2012, 08:55:30 AM »
I for one have a personal preference for NGC holders because I think they look better. Many people also say that NGC holders are more airtight than PCGS holders, which is important for silver coins.

Offline GDG's

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #108 on: February 29, 2012, 12:56:33 PM »
I just checked NGC site and found 20 Silver Lunar China Proof coins I sent in to have graded. All were removed by me from their plastic and then removed from plastic holders (1998 Tiger Proofs). I used cotton gloves (always do) and put them in non pvc flips before I shipped to NGC. I examined each coin very carefully and have been doing this a long time. I was expecting all 69's with a few 70's.

I received 11 69's and 9 68's. I was flabbergasted. This is proof, IN MY OPINION, that there are graders working at NGC who are inept. I paid over 1K for some schlep who doesn't have a clue how to grade give me these grades. I've been doing this a long time and know I'm correct. I'll continue to use PCGS again.I know that most CMC collectors like the NGC holder better I I'll defer to the grading service I believe knows how to grade. Maybe they caught my previous posts here saying  PCGS does a better grading job?  Who knows but I know how to pack and know how to grade. I like to have coins encapsulated to protect and some to sell but the rest of mine will remain PCGS.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2012, 01:21:39 AM »
If PCGS can improve their holder to match or exceed NGC's quality, I would run out of excuses to not buy PCGS. PCGS can only be good for the market, if they become serious competitors to NGC.

Offline glgehman001

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2012, 08:20:55 PM »
Here, here 25Grizzlies.

The new PCGS holders are nice, where you can see the side view, they look like the NGC holders but instead of having white gaskets, they have clear.  Watch the video PCGS' homepage.

As for white gloves, wow, this is such a selling technique it's sad.  On a colored surface a white glove will show you if there is dust or residue on the surface, if you wipe your smart phone glass with one, you'll notice it leaves behind a residue, most likely oil from your hands, just try it, squeeze the edges of your phone so your fingers go over the sides with your gloves one, see any spots? If the glass were more sensitive could these be interpreted as hairlines?

Now grab a coin with your gloves on, of course you won't be as harsh with the squeezing, just enough force to hold and transfer the coin  (this works best with a proof coin for the Mr. Wizard demonstration)  if you have a usb microscope, photo the coin before and after, now use your bare washed hands, make sure your have thoroughly dried them and try the same thing.  Photo the coin before and after  preferable a proof coin that you have a double of, same date variety etc.  You can even mark on the coin where you handled it with a sharpie.

If the cotton gloves leave no difference from bare hands, then congratulations, but the more coins you handle the more of a chance the cotton is going to lightly rub the obverse or reverse of the coin just enough to miss that 70 mark.

At least that is all I can figure out, cause the 2000 Australian Dragon I sent in was flawless from all angles under 20x magnification and from what I understand it only has to be flawless under 10x mag.  So from what I can tell it was my handling of the coin with cotton gloves, transferring it from the coin sized plastic holder to a 2.5 mylar flip, that lost me the 70.  Granted I didn't do Mr. Wixard's world before and after I just have before pics, and after it has been slabbed, if there is dust in there are a mark it is oftentimes hard to tell coin? or slab?

you can even use plastic tongs, best for beveled coins though, but the gloves are mainly to give you more grip in a coin store or when you are moving your collection around, and how can you get more grip if you don't have more surface area or a grippier surface.

If you have been around coins long enough you know how to handle them, you don't need gloves, by the edges only, with as little pressure as you can to get what you need done.  Just watch the grading guys, they are animals with the coins, and they don't wear gloves, hell I have seen them spin them by holding them between their fingers and tapping the edge.  I'm taken back to high school and paper football.

My 2 cents.
G

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2012, 08:40:10 PM »
Cotton gloves trap dust from the air, and the dust scratches the coins. Bare skin does not trap dust, and so it's much less likely to scratch the coin. The only way you can use gloves effectively is if you use them once, then throw them away and use a new set of gloves. Obviously, that gets expensive really fast.

I've done it in all sorts of areas, including a clean room environment. I've been involved in analysis of metal surface finishes, and polishing of "perfect" mirror surfaces. Only in the clean room were gloves used, and even then, it was only in a few special circumstances. Otherwise, clean fingers were always superior.

Dirty fingers can scratch coins, but with clean hands and careful handling, a coin can be handled and still get a 70 grade, no problem. It takes an expert to do this, though. When I look at unsophisticated people mishandling coins, it is clear they're not even aware they're damaging the coins. They have no knowledge of exactly how damage occurs and what it looks like.

It would be like trying to explain the weathering of rock by water in a stream to someone who knows nothing about atoms. They would look at the rock in the stream and conclude that somebody must have put all those round rocks in there. They can't see the individual rock atoms and molecules floating away one by one, over many years.

That's why most European collectors destroy ancient coins within 50 years. They're completely unaware that every time they touch the coin, they rub some of the metal away. If you ever get the chance, compare photographs of ancient coins in collector hands from 100 years ago, to the same coin today. If it still survives at all, it will have noticeable wear if it was in the possession of a "see with your hands, not with your eyes" collector.

That's why it's always wise to handle a coin by the edge only, and never touch the 2 flat sides of a coin. Wear on the edge takes a lot longer to become obvious. Plus, if you just never touch your coins at all, they can survive in pristine condition for thousands of years, and probably far, far longer.

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2012, 08:41:09 PM »
I locked voting on this poll now that NGC and PCGS are rapidly changing. We can do another poll in the future when things settle a little. It will be interesting to see the numbers then.

Offline glgehman001

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2012, 04:18:19 AM »
Excellent points, Badon.

Also, if you notice clean rooms used in the handling, production of semiconductors where humans are involved and you get down to the micrometer and even nanometer scales, 1/1,000,000 and 1/1,000,000,000, 1/millionth and 1/billionth of a meter respectively, what kind of gloves are the humans wearing, nitrile gloves.  Now I do not know how reactive these are with coin metals, but considering that gold, platinum, silver, copper and palladium are used in various semiconductors and computer pathways I would venture to guess they are non reactive.

They are also protective in that they are usually 6-7 mils in thickness and chemical resistant.  While you would obviously not want to have chemicals on your gloves while using your coins, a box of 500 can usually be had for about $15 or less, they are usually form fitting, if you buy the correct size and if you need to dispose of a pair between coins, you get a while box for the price of one graded coin, well worth the trade off.

I used these while dealing with various electronic equipment and chemicals and highly recommend them for that, as far as their usage in coins, I cannot say.

Although the cotton gloves on the market at 1.39$ a pair are certainly not 1000 thread count, are rarely form fitting and are useful if you don't want to wash your hands.  I still think that bar far non reactive coated coin tweezers are a better handling mechanism than gloves, but it takes practice and a delicate touch, something one's clean hands excel at and are the superior choice, best of all they are free.

For all intents and purposes if you believe you have a 70 coin and want to send it off to be graded, handle it with clean hands and package it properly.  The grading gurus may still find something to you may have overlooked, far and away your best chance is to use what the pros use in examining your coins.

Badon, I had a question for you, what type of surface to you recommend resting a coin on to use a magnifying device which doesn't allow you to hold the coin and view it?  Obviously you don't want to slide your coin on or off of the surface, but pick it up and put it down.  I usually use a sheet of fresh white paper, but even paper can leave residue and sliding....ugh.  Suggestions?

Unfortunately, I have 39 coins at Great Collections yet to be offered for auction, and looks like they won't be this or the next auction, I assume that he will wait until they have all be listed, sold and collected upon before we settle, but I would like buy a 5 oz Silver 2012 Chinese Dragon, can you recommend anyone?  It concerns me when shops sell graded coins right alongside nongraded coins of the same year and design, as if those not graded were the rejects, this may not be true, but it is the sense I get.

Also seeing as how PCGS will be including the COAs with the coins in the near future if anyone has purchased any of my coins from great collections (while most I sent in their holders with the coas to the auction house) I do have some coa's I found for the following:  98 HK 5Y 1/2 limited to 30,000, 98 10Y 1oz silver for "In commemoration of 98 China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition 50,000, and 10Y 1oz silver "in commemoration of Beijing International Coin Exhibition 2005 (30,000).  If you have purchased these (some of them may have not been listed yet) from me and would like the coa, I can send it to you free of charge, just send me a pm.

Sorry this message was all over the place...

Happy collecting,  now to just find a job and rebuild my Pandas  :(
G

Offline badon

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2012, 04:56:43 AM »
Nitrile gloves are great, but are unwise to use near machinery. They don't tear away easily enough, so I always preferred old-fashion latex surgical gloves that would shred instantly instead of pulling your hand into "the chopper". Dust and debris sticks much less to latex gloves than it does to cotton gloves, but nitrile is much better at repelling dirt. Still, for coins, bare hands are always the winner.

As far as a surface for laying down coins - I almost never do that. The few times I have done it, I did on freshly washed cotton towels. There's much less chance of damage from a towel than there is from a glove, but cotton fibers do get in the way...

If I had to lay coins down regularly, I would probably use something made of black silicone. A firmer cutting board might be better, since its easier to keep clean. The first thing that comes to mind are the silicone TypeMatrix keyboard "skins". They're thin silicone, and they come in black. I would put it on a cutting board or same other firmer coin-safe surface. They have a lot of "give" to them, which makes it easy to pick the coin up without needing to slide it around. You basically just reach under the coin.

In practice, now that I think about it, I have actually used that method, except my "cutting board" was my TypeMatrix keyboard :) I used a large size Giottos "rocket" to blow bits of dust away (or into the grooves where they won't touch the coin). Keep in mind it's risky to blast a coin with any blower that doesn't filter the air. If there's dust in the air, it acts like shotgun BB's on the coin's surface.

The fact that I've gone so long without ever needing to lay a coin down is a testament to how strongly I avoid handling coins! I have examined huge numbers of coins, but I always kept them inside at least one half of their capsule. They were almost never open long enough to gather any dust from the air, but in the few cases where I saw some specks land, I was able to GENTLY blow them away with my Giottos - gently enough to avoid the shotgun effect.

If I were to put a coin under a microscope, I'd probably leave it sitting in one half of its capsule. Then I can slide it around all I want, without worry.

Offline glgehman001

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Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2012, 05:38:43 PM »
Again all excellent points, which is why I come to the man with the crystal ball.

I happen to have 2 sizes of Giottos "rocket" blowers which I would use as they were easily portable and the fact that you mentioned nitrile repelling dirt, I used these gloves when I was a Xerox engineer and would have to come in contact with toner which is most cases is smaller than dust, but when it piles up, yech, hate that stuff.  Wonder how much is in my lungs,

I too try not to handle the coins to much and now that you mention it I have used one side of an open case to view/photograph the coins under the usb microscope, that is usually he only reason I take them out.

When I have sent them off for grading  I usually leave them in their holder and then slip them into the 2.5 mylar flips, good or bad idea?  If I feel them move even the slightest bit in the holder, then I look for a smaller holder, but I am sure there are times that a coin in a slightly larger holder has gotten by me, and I'm pretty sure through shipping it may have been damaged just enough to take it down half a grade, therefore a while grade.

Thanks for your input.
G