Author Topic: Possible WSOD explanation?  (Read 19991 times)

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Offline cabaretvolt

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 02:59:45 PM »
how do these white spots ordinarily affect grading and value
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Offline fwang2450

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 08:54:20 PM »
how do these white spots ordinarily affect grading and value
Unlike toning, white spots negatively affect both the grading and the value of the coin.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 12:44:42 AM »
how do these white spots ordinarily affect grading and value

http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal.html

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2012, 01:18:08 AM »
Fwang450.

The authors had considered the existence of unusual amount of C in the tested white spots as an environment element and not important in their interpreting of the formation of white spots. IMO, this is incorrect. The C element can be originated from organic substance in sweat and saliva. The authors also did not mention the detection of large amount of potassium in one of two samples tested. Again, potassium, similar to sodium and chloride is a major ingredient in sweat and salvia. IMO, the data generated from this study is clearly suggesting that the formation of white spots is from residue of human fluid such as sweat and saliva left on the coin surface. China Mint in its official document has indicated that the staffs of Quality Control conduct manual inspection about 30% of the coins produced. This gives a lot of chance to contaminate the coin surface by human fluid.

The cost of production of de-ionized water is very limited. In general, the cost is about $0.01/gal for 50 ton/day capacity. It is my understanding that China Mint always uses de-ionized water in its minting processs.


IMO, there are many different forms of white spots (milk spots). The one mentioned in the Word article is caused by iron “in” the surface. Other white spots mentioned in PDF file article are “on” the surface. The one “on” the surface with no iron involved can be readily removed if it is done properly and earlier.

The earlier Maples (pre-2000) were sealed in plastic and did not see white spots as many as the recent minted Maples, which were no longer sealed. The proof Eagles are also sealed in hard plastic holders, and they do not develop white spots in their original package for many years, in contrast to BU silver Eagles. All these observations suggest the extra handling by bare hand and the mist of breath during close examination of coin with a magnifier in the grading process may contaminate the coin surface further and cause more “white spots” problem inside the holder. The grading companies have expanded their business so much that new hired graders may not have a proper training to minimize the contamination during the grading process.




Offline Hippanda

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 01:19:37 AM »
Excellent analysis.

Thank you
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Offline dynamike51

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 01:37:49 AM »

All these observations suggest the extra handling by bare hand and the mist of breath during close examination of coin with a magnifier in the grading process may contaminate the coin surface further and cause more “white spots” problem inside the holder. The grading companies have expanded their business so much that new hired graders may not have a proper training to minimize the contamination during the grading process.


poconopenn,

Kudos to your great analysis. Thank you for answering my question. If the contamination is introduced during the minting and grading process, "quality control" or even some type of "clean room" environment definitely should be in order for all these outfits.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 12:38:40 PM »
RCM is well known for its problem with having WSODs on silver coins; now China Mint seems to have similar predicament. How about Perth Mint? Does anyone know of any particular issues with Australian silver coins?

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2012, 12:53:31 PM »
I've sent back many NGC-graded pandas under their guarantee after they developed the white spots and stains after being encapsulated. I've had this problem most commonly with post-2009 issues, although I've seen it on the majority of years like most of you. I agree that it has gotten far worse in recent years.

After much frustration, I called NGC and spoke with Craig Fiumara directly about what was causing the white spotting and staining on these coins, and why NCS could not take care of them (I actually thought that it could have been improper drying by NCS/NGC). He told me that it is caused from contaminants on the planchets that end up being pressed into the metal during the minting process. He didn't specify what the contaminants were, just that it's from what they use to clean the planchets. Since it is not a substance simply residing on the surface of the coin, there's nothing NCS can do to remove it.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2012, 01:07:03 PM »
I've sent back many NGC-graded pandas under their guarantee after they developed the white spots and stains after being encapsulated. I've had this problem most commonly with post-2009 issues, although I've seen it on the majority of years like most of you. I agree that it has gotten far worse in recent years.

After much frustration, I called NGC and spoke with Craig Fiumara directly about what was causing the white spotting and staining on these coins, and why NCS could not take care of them (I actually thought that it could have been improper drying by NCS/NGC). He told me that it is caused from contaminants on the planchets that end up being pressed into the metal during the minting process. He didn't specify what the contaminants were, just that it's from what they use to clean the planchets. Since it is not a substance simply residing on the surface of the coin, there's nothing NCS can do to remove it.

heyimderrick,

Have you noticed this particular problem with Australian silver coins?

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2012, 01:26:49 PM »
heyimderrick,

Have you noticed this particular problem with Australian silver coins?

I have not. I was a collector of the Koalas (sold), I have a full run of the Kookaburras and both Lunar Series, and I have not seen any spotting or staining at all on the Perth Mint products. I've flipped a lot of Kooks and Lunars also and never had any issues with spotting/staining of any kind.

I have seen some minor spots on some ASEs (rarely) with the frosted finish that looks similar to some of the small spots we see on Pandas. The staining on Maples and Wildlife Series I have seen does look different as well.

On Pandas, In my experience, I generally see very faint, small white spots. Or, large splotchy stains with almost a yellowish tint, generally on the frosted areas towards and along the rim. Coins plagued by both kinds of marks were covered under NGC's guarantee when I sent them in for appearance review.

I've personally sent in a handful of Pandas with the small, faint white spots to NCS, and none we ever removed entirely and usually only slightly improved. While I owned the coins, the spots didn't get worse, but I have since sold off my entire silver collection of Pandas. While I still dabble in flipping silver Pandas to help fuel my addiction, I am sticking to gold Pandas for my personal collection.

Offline NBM

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2012, 01:35:34 PM »
There were reports in the last year of some of Perth's silver coins having WSOD. I can not find these posts currently.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2012, 01:36:00 PM »

While I still dabble in flipping silver Pandas to help fuel my addiction


LOL ... you and I both !!   :lol:  Maybe we need to check in rehab center somewhere ...

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2012, 01:47:25 PM »
There were reports in the last year of some of Perth's silver coins having WSOD. I can not find these posts currently.

I'm fairly active on SilverStackers (an Australia-based forum); I've heard complaints about the quality control slipping (scratched coins, capsules), but can't say I have seen white spots myself. Although it is possible I missed it. If PM does have an issue with them, it must be under far better control than with China or Canada.


EDIT: Just did a search and there have been a few claims of small spots showing up on some 2011/2012 Koalas.  :thumbdown:

To me, it seems the issue start getting more severe as the mints try to increase capacity. Less time available to do thorough cleaning/drying of the planchets maybe.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:02:00 PM by heyimderrick »

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2012, 01:47:57 PM »
LOL ... you and I both !!   :lol:  Maybe we need to check in rehab center somewhere ...

I get a nice reality check whenever I get stuck with a coin I overpaid for, lol. =)

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Possible WSOD explanation?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2012, 02:46:49 PM »
I've sent back many NGC-graded pandas under their guarantee after they developed the white spots and stains after being encapsulated. I've had this problem most commonly with post-2009 issues, although I've seen it on the majority of years like most of you. I agree that it has gotten far worse in recent years.

After much frustration, I called NGC and spoke with Craig Fiumara directly about what was causing the white spotting and staining on these coins, and why NCS could not take care of them (I actually thought that it could have been improper drying by NCS/NGC). He told me that it is caused from contaminants on the planchets that end up being pressed into the metal during the minting process. He didn't specify what the contaminants were, just that it's from what they use to clean the planchets. Since it is not a substance simply residing on the surface of the coin, there's nothing NCS can do to remove it.
Thanks for passing this information.