Author Topic: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998  (Read 71205 times)

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Offline Gilmore

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #135 on: October 11, 2013, 04:04:11 AM »

Offline NBM

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #136 on: October 11, 2013, 04:12:59 AM »
Is this a known variety?

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2782594-020


Hi,

Is anyone familiar with varieties of the 1995 1/2 oz silver small date panda? I recently found three 1995 1/2 small date coins that appear to be all different versions. Please see the three pictures below.

Picture 1: the panda's hind leg is longer than usual (less frosting on the panda's hip), and the panda's belly touches the tree branch
Picture 2: Shorter hind leg; there is a mirrored gap between the panda's belly and the tree branch
Picture 3: Shorter hind leg; no mirror gap between the panda's belly and the branch

To the coin and panda experts here: what do you think caused these differences, and are they legitimate varieties?



Offline davidt3251

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #137 on: October 11, 2013, 03:04:08 PM »
Its the same gap as in as NGC# 3682500-002.

I haven't done an extensive analysis, but the coins without the gap (Picture 3, filled in frosting) seem more prevalent. I haven't seen many of Picture 1, have seen a few Picture 2.

Gilmore's coin is unique, on the lower bottom right of the trunk, the last leaf on the right (before the rim) touches on every 1995 SD 1/2 I have seen, but I have only reviewed a few dozen.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2013, 11:01:37 PM »
Comparing this coin to variety no. 2 and NGC #3682500-002, I think the gap between the panda's belly and the branch is not the same. The gap is much wider in the coin I posted and the branch is considerably thinner. Additionally, there is excess frosting under the panda's head and on the leaves on the bottom left (all leaves are connected).

Is this a 4th variety?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #139 on: October 12, 2013, 10:14:53 AM »
Can you post photos of all 4 varieties?......

Offline NumiKat

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #140 on: October 13, 2013, 07:24:15 PM »
The one in Gilmore's picture is not a Small Date--it is a Large Date 1/2 ounce panda minted by Shanghai mint. This variety is not seen very often. I posted about it back in May 2012:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5699.0

Actually, since I made that post, I've found that there is also a 3rd large date variety, about equally as rare as the variety in Gilmore's picture. With some patience, I have been able to acquire all three 1995 Large Date varieties. I've put together collages of the three Large Date varieties, along with a Small Date for comparison. In the pictures, A is the usual (most common) LD variety; B is Gilmore's LD variety; and C is a third LD variety.

I've found the following differences among the three LD varieties:

1. In the usual Variety (A), there is a concave groove or indentation running from behind the panda's ear partway down the back of its neck. On B and C, the back of the panda's neck is convex, and there is no concave groove.

2. In Variety A, the line at the top of the Yuan symbol is "broken": it has a notch about halfway through the bar. It's not easy to see this in pictures, but it's obvious with the coin in hand. This notch is present on every specimen of Type A I have seen. Neither B nor C have this notch.

3. The center of the leaf cluster within the rectangle is open (mirrored) in Varieties A and B, but it is frosted in Variety C.

4. In A, the panda's chest area, indicated by the arrow, is connected to the main tree branch with a white bar. It looks like the designer of the coin may have intended for this to be a smaller twig, since this bar is textured like bark. On Variety B, the white area connecting the panda's chest to the branch does not have a bark-like texture. In C, the panda's chest area is connected to the tree branch by a sharp point, and this area also lacks a bark-like texture. C also has a noticeable bump on the frosting on the panda's chest area, below the left side of its chin. The difference in textures suggests that the design was changed for some reason, perhaps because the twig did not look natural.

5. In variety A, there is a small gap between the panda's belly and the branch. But as Gilmore pointed out, the gap is much larger in B and C. In B and C, the tree branch is bent and thinner in this area, and the panda seems "fatter" since its belly extends to the toes of its back leg more so than in A.

6. Perhaps the most obvious difference is in the leaves below the branch near the panda's bottom foot. In A, the leaves extend behind the branch, but in B and C they are in front of the branch.

7. Differences #1 and #6 suggest an interesting possible connection between Shanghai Varieties B and C and the Shenyang Small Date. As in B and C, the small date has leaves extending in front of the branch (#6), and the back of the panda's neck is convex (#1). Variety A is different in both of these respects.

From what I can tell, Varieties B and C seem to be less common than the usual variety A. Neither one appears in Peter's new book. As a rough guess, I'd estimate that there are only a few dozen NGC specimens of B and C combined, in all grades, out of maybe around 600 LDs total. But I haven't done a comprehensive examination of the NGC certification #s. Perhaps SANDAC or someone else could help with that...  :001_unsure:

Offline NBM

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2013, 08:39:58 PM »
Discussion on 95 S5Y varieties at Baoquan: http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-1948.html

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #142 on: October 13, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »
I can confirm LD var-B as in 2759267-001 to -010 and 2782594-020.  I can also see LD var-C such as 3162227-089 and 3559116-007.  They are pretty hard to find, but the 1995 S5Y panda population is dominated by large submission, presumably dealers bought sheets of them and submit them en masse.  The rarity maybe biased by a common source for many large dealers.  Var B and C tend to be small size submission.  It is a lot of data to plow through and I'm not even done with ms68, but my feeling is that combined B+C is about 1 in 20.

Offline NBM

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #143 on: October 13, 2013, 10:41:40 PM »
Hi,

There are three varieties of 1995 Small Date 1/2 oz. and two of Large date that will be in the books. I need to compare your photos to what I have already found. Thanks!

Best wishes,
Peter

Was this covered somewhere in the new book?

Offline davidt3251

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #144 on: October 13, 2013, 11:32:03 PM »
These are two of my submissions of 1995 S5Y SD. One has no tummy gap (frosted between tummy and log), one has mirrored tummy gap.

Offline SilverNut

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2013, 09:42:00 AM »
Hey Numikat,

Thanks very much for your generous sharing. I just checked the onne raw 1/2 oz 1995 silver panda i have on hand and it looks like large date C. Can't wait to check my other 1995s kept elsewhere :)




Offline Gilmore

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
NumiKat,
Thank you for the detailed and clear explanation. Your effort is much appreciated. +1

Offline NBM

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2013, 06:15:22 PM »
NumiKat,
Thank you for the detailed and clear explanation. Your effort is much appreciated. +1

+2  N48

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2013, 09:23:00 PM »
Is there a population estimate for the 95 1/2 oz mirror tummy vs frosted tummy?.......

Offline radderlee

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Re: 1/2 ounce silver pandas 1993 to 1998
« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2013, 10:56:38 PM »
Discussion on China silver Panda varieties at Baoquan, please see the Page 3.

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-2772.html