Author Topic: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?  (Read 6647 times)

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Offline pandayo

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PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« on: July 27, 2011, 10:06:48 PM »
Talking about PCGS / NGC grade, which one that you think will have higher prices in the future? The one that's graded or the one still in original package?


Offline badon

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PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 10:53:46 PM »
Welcome to our forum, pandayo!

For high grade genuine coins, definitely graded. For fakes, and low quality coins, they will probably sell better if people think they're in the original packaging.

NGC is by far the most popular grading service for modern Chinese coins, due to it's advantages in almost every area over PCGS. There's still a few areas where PCGS is still hanging on, but they're being swept aside almost completely.

Offline pandayo

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PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 11:02:14 PM »
Thanks badon.

Any idea on how do I know it's higher grade other than no red spots?

Any link where I can learn that? I saw grade coin section in this forum, just went there briefly.

Another question: This is not related but when ebay has "buy it now" listing, can the buyer counter offer it? (Usually they have give me an offer box but what if they don't have?)

Thanks

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 11:27:12 PM »
Coins with red spots can earn very high grades. NCS can easily remove the spots too.

Grading is a subject that requires a lot of experience for comparisons. The easiest way to get started is to pick a coin you want to learn about, and assemble a set of them in different grades. You can quickly get good at grading those coins as long as you have your reference set to compare to. "Quickly" means it will probably take a few years :)

That's why most people don't bother to learn grading at all, they just stick to the professionally graded coins. Still, it's helpful if you at least get an idea of what a good coin should look like, even if you aren't able to grade them exactly.

You can give offers only if the seller sets it up so you can. Otherwise, the Buy-It-Now price is the price the seller wants.

By the way, I split this topic from the one where you originally posted it so it will be easier to find.

Offline pandayo

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 05:54:48 AM »
So, it sounds like that people do grading is to:
1. make sure its authenticity
2. get higher grade so that it can sell higher.
3. prevent the red spot from the plastic

However, if the reason is #3, I also read here that some people, after getting the coin graded in few years, the red spots still can occur inevitably. Doesn't it means that grading kind of waste of money?

Offline allen04

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 10:26:21 AM »
spot and toning will happen. Grading coins is not to prevent those. First, not all the coins are perfect. Better coins are more valuable. Grading will tell you how good you coin is. Graded by those big company, the conditions of the coin match with score. It is well accepted by a lot of people. So when you are buying, you do not need to worry about the conditions of those graded coins. That is main reason people send their coins and grade. Second, the coin in holder usually can be protected better.

Offline pandayo

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 04:42:56 PM »
I think I read somewhere, in this forum I believe;

One day, eventually, it'll be difficult to find coin that's in original packaging. If that's the case, isn't original packaging might worth more in the future? Thought?

I actually notice this from coin:

If it's in original packaging it's usually difficult to get red spot or maybe never, otherwise it's easier. Thought?

Offline allen04

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 05:07:46 PM »
Actually I heard the other way. Due to the working environment, the air in the package is dirty and harmful to the coin. That may not be true. What you said is reasonable, you can try it. I agree the coins in original package are good one. But in the market now, it can't beat the high score graded coin.

I think I read somewhere, in this forum I believe;

One day, eventually, it'll be difficult to find coin that's in original packaging. If that's the case, isn't original packaging might worth more in the future? Thought?

I actually notice this from coin:

If it's in original packaging it's usually difficult to get red spot or maybe never, otherwise it's easier. Thought?


Offline pandayo

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 05:21:12 PM »
Yeah...probably same as this logic:

In 1990's people ignore gold because price is low. When it gets higher and higher, people start to pay more attention.

20 years ago, people ignore small panda and melt it. Now it gets valuable.

Know what I mean?

Things always going around and around, like earth.

I heard about the air in the package getting dirty, I also heard it might be damage if it's kept in 100F temperature. But then I wonder, how do those Asian people keep their gold and still fine?


Offline allen04

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2011, 10:51:38 AM »
You are right. No one knows the future. I wish I would jump back even two years ago to buy Chinese coins. The preservation of coins is also a headache to everyone. For collector, you can do what you want. There are many people do not want to send their coins to grading. Some of them want to keep it in the plastic package, some not. It all depends on the collector preference. When people doing something, they always think they are doing the right thing. No one can guarantee which one is right, but you need to select one based on your experience and others advice.
I am new to grading service and I am following the market trend now. It may be stupid 20 years later. But for me, it can't be worse than the stock market.

Offline pandayo

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 12:56:55 AM »
So, if the coin purity is .9999 and not sealed inside original packaging, can it have red spot/toning?

And then if graded coin has red spot, does that red spot will spread eventually? I think I remember the answer is yes, I'm not sure.

I guess I'm just a bit confused why bar doesn't have red spot and coin has. Sorry newbie questions, e?  :001_rolleyes:

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2011, 01:18:27 AM »
Red spots are a small problem. They can be removed if they reappear. They are from small amounts of silver in the gold that reacts with sulfur in the air form pollution. When the coin is conserved by NCS and sealed in an NGC holder, it will delay the spot from reappearing, for possibly decades or longer.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2011, 09:06:55 AM »

I guess I'm just a bit confused why bar doesn't have red spot and coin has. Sorry newbie questions, e?  :001_rolleyes:

.999 fine gold bars get spots, too. Usually people don't notice, or care.



Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 12:39:41 PM »
Canadian maple leafs have 5 nines (.99999 fine), and they get spots too. It doesn't take very much impurity in the gold for it to get spots. The fineness of 5 nines says that only 1 part in 100,000 is not pure gold.

Since gold is mined from rocks, and the rocks get crushed to powder to separate the gold, just imagine a block of compressed gold dust the same size as the gold bar or coin. There's probably millions of specks of dust in it, and probably many specks of pure silver. If some of them are at the surface, they will make a red spot.

Worse still, when a coin or bar is struck by a die to make the design, the little speck gets flattened out into a much wider area. So, that's how you get large red spots on very pure gold coins.

Online poconopenn

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 03:06:27 PM »
The cause of red spots is copper, not silver. 100 parts per million (ppm)of mineral in .999 gold is a lot of impurity. The up limit of hard water is 120 ppm of mineral. The water containing of 300 ppm mineral will show a very light brown color. Below is a link to NGC article about copper spots on the gold coins.

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=572

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 12:05:24 AM »
No, the research says it's silver and sulfur:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1001052107600308

100 PPM is not .999 gold (3 nines), it is .9999 gold (4 nines).

I don't think there's much value in the comparison with the visual characteristics of water of similar purities, since you have to look through many millimeters of transparent .9999 water before you notice the cloudiness. Since gold is completely opaque, you don't get to see that much of it - in fact, you only get to see the top few hundred atoms thickness, where you probably will not notice ANY impurities, even in .9 gold (1 nine) or even much less.

True copper spots tone dark red, then brown, but never bright red like the red spots on "pure" gold coinage.

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 06:07:06 AM »
The cause of 'Red Spots' is neither Silver or Copper.... It's Sulphur.  And it can happen to any coin or bar no matter how pure the fineness.

Offline badon

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 10:34:46 PM »
It's silver reacting with sulphur to produce silver sulfide, which is black in color. I assume the black color diluted with the golden color of gold produces the reddish copper color we see with red spots on gold. Of course, the color could be produced more complicated ways, but I don't think those are relevant in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_sulfide

Gold can react directly with sulphur to produce gold sulfide, but that only occurs in specific circumstances that usually involve the presence of silver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold(I)_sulfide

If you have info about the red spots being gold sulfide instead of silver sulfide, I would be curious to read it.

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Re: PCGS or NGC? Slabbed or original packaging?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2011, 01:14:07 AM »
Cuprous oxide is red color, cuprous sulfide is grayish blue and silver sulfide is dark gray. This is the reason that morgan dollar (90% silver, 10 % copper) can generate nice rainbow toning. It is a well establish fact that red spot is caused by copper impurity in the gold coin. When the storage place does not have sulfur, it will have a red spot. If trace of sulfur in the air, the spot will be brownish red or redish brown.