Author Topic: NCS Conservation  (Read 11697 times)

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Offline silverxsurfer

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NCS Conservation
« on: July 26, 2011, 02:20:53 PM »
Hello all,

Hope you've all been having a great summer.  I understand that it's important for silver coins to be NCS conserved but wanted to know how important it was for gold coins be NCS conserved?  What does the NCS conservation do for gold coins?

Thanks!

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 03:02:32 PM »
I conserve everything. They all have at least some dirt haze on them. Conservation will make the coin shine the best that it possibly can. It has gotten higher grades for me, also.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 03:49:47 PM »
From personal experience, conservation can increase the grades by up to 4.  I bought a 64, send in to NCS/NGC, and got back a 68.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 04:02:04 PM »
That's a trick I have made good money on. I like to buy coins that don't have any scratches or marks on them, but have hideous toning or haze. I get them cheap, because they are either already graded low, or they would if they were sent in like they are. After a trip through NCS, the ugly coin looks gorgeous, and gets a 69 or 70 grade! Instant money.

tamo42

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 09:07:20 PM »
I feel so dumb right now

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 10:03:09 PM »
From personal experience, conservation can increase the grades by up to 4.  I bought a 64, send in to NCS/NGC, and got back a 68.

It's still a crap-shoot? I have seen toned silver coins that come back after NCS looking terrible. After removing toning, sometimes pitted/stained areas are evident causing even lower grade than without NCS. Also, at times, I notice, after NCS, what looks like "water stains" remain on the silver coin. Maybe attributible to improper drying techniques.

Offline Pandora

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 12:01:33 PM »
It's still a crap-shoot? I have seen toned silver coins that come back after NCS looking terrible. After removing toning, sometimes pitted/stained areas are evident causing even lower grade than without NCS. Also, at times, I notice, after NCS, what looks like "water stains" remain on the silver coin. Maybe attributible to improper drying techniques.

I have seen this happening to sealed 5 oz Silver coins. Many problem areas that would hide behind some dullness, after NCS it will come back to life and earn a lower grade :-)

Offline Grip

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 04:05:55 PM »
Also, there is a lot to be said for a uniquely toned silver coin. I don't think a little uniform toning is as much a factor for NGC grading as is the strike of the coin. The dreaded "white spots of death" some silver coins develop are the primary concern for submitting to NCS. So far as gold coins go, NCS will most likely get you a better grade if there are no permanent blemishes on the coin...  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:19:25 PM by Grip »

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2011, 01:33:12 AM »
Silver coins benefit the most from conservation.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2011, 10:15:10 AM »
Silver coins benefit the most from conservation.


Hmmmm. Not in my experiences. As I mentioned before, some silver comes back in worse shape after conservation. GOLD cleans up best. I would not hesitate to submit a spotted gold for conservation.

Offline bendip

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 09:01:42 AM »
Just a question about verifying NCS coins. When looking at coins advertised as NGC- NCS Conserved. How can one verify coin was actually conserved? Tried typing NGC number into NCS CERTIFICATION NUMBER LOOK UP but it says No Coin was found matching that search?
Hope this is the right place for question and appreciate any assistance.
Kind regards,
Ben

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »
Just a question about verifying NCS coins. When looking at coins advertised as NGC- NCS Conserved. How can one verify coin was actually conserved? Tried typing NGC number into NCS CERTIFICATION NUMBER LOOK UP but it says No Coin was found matching that search?
Hope this is the right place for question and appreciate any assistance.
Kind regards,
Ben
I have to call NGC customer service,giving them NGC cert #, most of the time, they will be able to tell, only if the coin was NCS conserved, then directly sent for grading.

Offline bendip

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 12:16:44 PM »
Thank you for quick response. As of interest. I just contact seller asking if they would be kind enough to email NCS invoice. Second best option I suppose. Thanks and good luck!

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 03:33:02 PM »
Just a question about verifying NCS coins. When looking at coins advertised as NGC- NCS Conserved. How can one verify coin was actually conserved? Tried typing NGC number into NCS CERTIFICATION NUMBER LOOK UP but it says No Coin was found matching that search?
Hope this is the right place for question and appreciate any assistance.
Kind regards,
Ben

Ben,

If you care to verify seller's claim of NCS conservation, it's best to contact the seller directly and ask for a NCS invoice - either a digital copy or a hardcopy.  My 2cents   :mellow:

Offline sasushi

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 03:48:19 PM »
@dynamike51

I agree

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 06:31:02 PM »
Ben,

If you care to verify seller's claim of NCS conservation, it's best to contact the seller directly and ask for a NCS invoice - either a digital copy or a hardcopy.  My 2cents   :mellow:
Problem is: NCS invoice only shows the type of coin(s)being conserved, no NGC cer # on it, therefore, it's not the real proof but only your impression that the coin you are buying is the one you see on NCS invoice. The best way? Call NGC and verify. I have entertained myself with this topic long time ago.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 06:40:13 PM »
Problem is: NCS invoice only shows the type of coin(s)being conserved, no NGC cer # on it, therefore, it's not the real proof but only your impression that the coin you are buying is the one you see on NCS invoice. The best way? Call NGC and verify. I have entertained myself with this topic long time ago.

Pandaccumulator:

Not so. When NGC ships the coins back, one of the invoice pages shows NCS transfers the coins to NGC. That page has the NGC reference number, which is the certification number.

Have you ever submitted coins to NCS? Look it up and tell me if I'm wrong.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 07:02:06 PM »
Hi dynamike51,

I just checked the invoices I received from NCS/NGC, total of three pages, one from NCS, two from NGC. I was right by saying NCS invoice doesn't showe NGC #, you were right that on one of the pages from NGC, it does show the NCS reference #, which is the NGC cert #. I guess we were both right, maybe you were "more" right. So two ways: 1)ask for NGC invoice, NOT NCS invoice from the seller, 2)call NGC.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 07:11:37 PM »
Hi dynamike51,

I just checked the invoices I received from NCS/NGC, total of three pages, one from NCS, two from NGC. I was right by saying NCS invoice doesn't showe NGC #, you were right that on one of the pages from NGC, it does show the NCS reference #, which is the NGC cert #. I guess we were both right, maybe you were "more" right. So two ways: 1)ask for NGC invoice, NOT NCS invoice from the seller, 2)call NGC.

Example:  (this is a NCS invoice, right?) The middle column where it says "NGC reference" - that's your NGC certification number.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2012, 08:36:44 PM »
Example:  (this is a NCS invoice, right?) The middle column where it says "NGC reference" - that's your NGC certification number.
Intersting, I looked at my NCS invoice again, mine dated 9/20/11 looked different from yours, it doesn't have the "NGC reference" as shown on yours,and this was also what I was told when I requested for NCS conservation proof from the seller recently. I think yours was back to the earlier date?

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 08:38:28 PM »
Intersting, I looked at my NCS invoice again, mine dated 9/20/11 looked different from yours, it doesn't have the "NGC reference" as shown on yours,and this was also what I was told when I requested for NCS conservation proof from the seller recently. I think yours was back to the earlier date?

07/09/2012

Offline panda

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 09:55:07 PM »
If NGC is that good, why they don't dare to state it on the NGC slab lable?

Offline didochili

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 10:05:15 PM »
If NGC is that good, why they don't dare to state it on the NGC slab lable?


Great question.

Offline panda

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2012, 10:27:10 PM »
If NCS is that good, why they don't dare to state it on the NGC slab lable? :)

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2012, 10:29:48 PM »
07/09/2012
07/09/2012
Wow, nice to see another improvement NGC recently made.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 10:41:58 PM »
If NCS is that good, why they don't dare to state it on the NGC slab lable? :)
The reason is most high end collectors are willing to pay high premium on a natural, unaltered high grade coin (natural beauty). If they know the coin is conserved, or in another word, being altered,they will loss interest. MCC, esp silver is one of the few exceptions to the rule. This is business-guided.

low

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 11:07:32 PM »
The reason is most high end collectors are willing to pay high premium on a natural, unaltered high grade coin (natural beauty). If they know the coin is conserved, or in another word, being altered,they will loss interest. MCC, esp silver is one of the few exceptions to the rule. This is business-guided.

This is the reason PCGS withheld the idea of conservation. They talked about it several years ago.

Offline panda

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2012, 11:24:57 PM »
if send a NCS coin crossover PCGS? Will PCGS grade it "ungradable"?

low

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 01:14:04 AM »
if send a NCS coin crossover PCGS? Will PCGS grade it "ungradable"?

Yes. PCGS do grades lightly dipped and cleaned coin. They just don't want to publicly offering conservation service. Some people relate conservation to coin doctoring.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 01:14:51 AM »
if send a NCS coin crossover PCGS? Will PCGS grade it "ungradable"?

Of course they will.  PCGS has no way of really knowing if a modern coin has been "conserved".  The idea of the coin being "altered" in silly.

low

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2012, 01:19:15 AM »
The "altered" part is misconception, but many collectors do believe conservation means coin doctoring.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2012, 12:03:02 AM »
Badon, what about the new feature catagory that I wrote about a while back? "Looks like many collectors will be looking into "home remedies" for conserving their coins prior to submitting for grading. This may be a good idea for a new topic or new feature category on this forum. Members will have a venue to discuss and compare different processes, their successes and failures, and recommendations for conserving coins based on their own experiences. Any thoughts on this proposed new forum feature?" I think that we should move on this idea. Let's put NCS out of business!  :thumbup:

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »
That's an excellent idea. We already have a section for it:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?board=31.0

That's the best place to discuss the "home remedies". If someone gets good at it, and is willing to certify their work, I can see much potential profit. If no one bites, I might have to take care of that myself. I've got a plan, I just don't want to make that my next project quite yet.

Offline moosician

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2012, 12:53:07 PM »
But with that said,for us amateurs, NCS seems to be the only solution to remove red spots/toning and WSOD prevention (to an extend).
I have quite a few NGC PF69 pandas that have developed toning around the rim, contemplating if they should be sent to NCS...any advise?

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2012, 01:03:29 PM »
But with that said,for us amateurs, NCS seems to be the only solution to remove red spots/toning and WSOD prevention (to an extend).
I have quite a few NGC PF69 pandas that have developed toning around the rim, contemplating if they should be sent to NCS...any advise?

NCS removes toning very effectively. However, white spot/haziness is another story. I have sent silver coins that look OK intially to NCS but come back with patches of "haze" - I'm not sure what exactly they do there at NCS.  :cursing:

Offline moosician

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2012, 01:12:20 PM »
Yes ive experienced the patches of haze too... >:(
Actually was thinking if i should leave the coins as is with the natural toning or get them removed.
Would the toning affect the coin value or collector preferences in any kind of way?

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 04:21:48 AM »
NCS removes toning very effectively. However, white spot/haziness is another story. I have sent silver coins that look OK intially to NCS but come back with patches of "haze" - I'm not sure what exactly they do there at NCS.  :cursing:

YES, ditto that! I too have had silver coins come back in worse shape than when they were initially submitted. Spots, haze, water/drying spots are the norm at NCS. They are very inconsistent and lack quality control (just like NGC). And, yes, we are expected to pay bigh bucks for their follies! What a joke. Also, I did not renew my NGC membership.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2012, 10:45:35 AM »
YES, ditto that! I too have had silver coins come back in worse shape than when they were initially submitted. Spots, haze, water/drying spots are the norm at NCS. They are very inconsistent and lack quality control (just like NGC). And, yes, we are expected to pay bigh bucks for their follies! What a joke. Also, I did not renew my NGC membership.

So what's the alternative? Switch to PCGS? Or stop grading altogether?

Offline Obsidian

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2012, 02:14:07 PM »
So what's the alternative? Switch to PCGS? Or stop grading altogether?

I have had good luck with NCS / NGC overall.  I mostly do gold though so it seems to be more consistant than silver.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2012, 02:30:41 PM »
I have had good luck with NCS / NGC overall.  I mostly do gold though so it seems to be more consistant than silver.

I agree. I have sent in only three gold coins to NCS/NGC. They removed the copper spots and the coins came out beautifully. Silver coins, well, that's another story .... besides the haziness I mentioned, some of the frost (at the high point of the coin) was "rubbed" off. :cursing:

Offline panda

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2012, 04:03:51 PM »
:thumbup1:  :thumbup1:

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2012, 04:13:45 PM »
:thumbup1:  :thumbup1:

Is that you, panda? - I mean the picture on the wall ....  :laugh:

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2012, 09:21:47 PM »
NCS used to conserve coins with white spots. Most of the time, the white spots were not only neutralized, but also greatly reduced. In a few very rare cases, they were almost completely removed. Now, NCS charges you for the conservation, but does nothing. They claim there's nothing they can do for white spots, so they just hand you your bill and expect you to pay for literally nothing.

I have been hearing more bad news about coins developing white spots at NCS - much more than before, and I have a guess about why. White spots begin to form immediately after exposure to humidity in the air. NCS used to conserve every coin you paid for, and they did it within a short time after removing the seals. So, very few coins had enough time to develop spots before they were conserved to remove the corrosive acid on the coin that causes white spots. Back then, I never saw a single coin conserved by NCS that would later develop white spots. Not even one. NCS was doing exactly what you paid them to do - conservation. "Conservation" means preservation, by the way. It's not "cleaning", which means "making it look better".

Now, if NCS thinks the coin looks good enough that you won't notice if they don't actually do any conservation, then they will skip the coin. That's not conservation, that's cleaning, where they only clean the coins that look dirty. Then, you get the coins back, or a dealer sells an "NCS conserved" coin to you, and then 2 months later you look at it again, and it's suddenly worthless because it's covered in white spots. The corrosive acid was never removed by NCS in a "conservation" process because the coin didn't look like it needed "cleaning".

So, from the moment the coin arrived at NCS, the acid has been gradually reactivating as it absorbs moisture from the air. Within 2 months (give or take), your coin is worthless, all thanks to NCS and their expensive service that is good for nothing but taking your money, and exposing your carefully preserved decades-old coins to atmospheric damage.

I will never recommend anyone to use NCS ever again, unless they improve. I don't trust them, and I don't like the way they do business. If they improve, then maybe I will change my opinion. For now, their secret conservation process is just a cover for no conservation process. You can't complain to them, though. This shady dealing is actually in their official published policy. Kind of like the fraudulent shill bidding that Chinese auction houses do.

If I tell you I'm about to pick your pockets, does that make it OK? I don't do business with people that resort to bureaucratic legalistic nonsense to justify hurting me or people I care about (the members of this forum). That's not just, justice, or justifiable. It's just NOT.

As for NGC, I have very little to complain about with them. They're facing stiff competition from PCGS, and they're doing a great job defending their territory. The best part is that the numismatic market is growing, so there's room for both PCGS and NGC to keep competing with each other, without taking much market share. I almost never hear any complaints about any of the grading services.

The only thing I'd like to see is for ANACS to step into the 21st century and start giving PCGS and NGC some competition. NGC and PCGS are a tough act to follow, though, so I'm not sure whether ANACs has what it takes. Every time I look at the work NGC does, I am thoroughly impressed. I don't own any PCGS coins, so I'm not very familiar with them, but people who are fans of PCGS say very similar things about the high quality of PCGS's work. The fact that PCGS is doing so well against NGC, even when NGC has been established for so much longer, shows to me that PCGS is serious business.

It's probably only a matter of time before PCGS or someone else comes up with a second conservation service. When that happens, I expect NCS will improve and stop giving people reasons to complain about them. Until there's competition, I prefer to avoid NCS. I am extremely disappointed in them, and I feel pretty crappy about recommending them so heartily in previous years. They were much better in those days.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2012, 09:25:31 PM »
Badon:

Is there an alternative source to conservation, other than NCS?

Offline dragondollar

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2012, 09:31:04 PM »
Well, I know for a fact that PCGS is much more reactive about Imperial coins variety. They acknowledge far more varieties than NGC, and accurately at that.
This is very important for the Chinese market. I still use NGC however due to their holders, detailed grades and website. PCGS only recently got pictures in their database, which is very important to allow buyers to check what you are selling is the real deal. They even more recently started to print details grade on holders, instead of simply "Genuine". If now PCGS got holders that allow to see the edge of dollar sized coins and improved its website, I'd jump ship in a heartbeat.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2012, 10:08:16 PM »
Badon:

Is there an alternative source to conservation, other than NCS?

Not that I know enough about to recommend. I know some high end dealers are quite capable with it, but they only do it for their own coins, and even then, it's not something they like to talk about. PCGS is able to do conservation, but as far as I know, they don't do it upon request. They just do it in special cases only, much like the dealers.

There's some rumblings around that somebody might decide to give it a try, but I haven't heard of anything serious yet. The biggest problem is that NCS is in the same building as NGC, so they are able to integrate with grading far better than any competitor ever could. So, right now, I think the best hope is to beg PCGS to make the arrangements for a competing conservation service that integrates with PCGS.

Of course, you can always try it yourself, too. Just be sure to practice on cheap junk silver coins first.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »
This is the reason I was hoping that members who have experimented with conservation would post their experiences in a new forum catagory entitled "Home Coin Conservation". Let's get the ball rolling and release the stranglehold of NCS.

Offline badon

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Re: NCS Conservation
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2012, 10:42:05 PM »
That's an excellent topic for discussion. Please make a post with that title, and I'll post a few simple ideas.