Author Topic: fake pagodas  (Read 3994 times)

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Offline badon

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fake pagodas
« on: June 14, 2011, 11:34:26 PM »
Almost all of the pagodas coming to the market recently are fake. The sellers are usually not aware of it, and they will insist that the coins are genuine. These "Yoda pagodas" are usually pretty convincing, but they won't get through NGC's authentication process for the same reasons I'm able to spot them. Here's a fake set that recently sold:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370518989733

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 11:52:24 PM »
Oh, NO ! Say it ain't So !  What is it about this seller that makes you pause? The name "DingDing"?, the feedback from many of the same buyers?
How about the rare Monks Set,  Fake then too? 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1980-CHINA-MONK-SILVER-MEDALS-4PCS-SET-BU-ONLY-500SETS-/370518987756?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644a713ec

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 12:03:09 AM »
yes, please do explain how you know there fakes?
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Offline badon

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 12:12:05 AM »
Oh, NO ! Say it ain't So !  What is it about this seller that makes you pause? The name "DingDing"?, the feedback from many of the same buyers?
How about the rare Monks Set,  Fake then too? 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1980-CHINA-MONK-SILVER-MEDALS-4PCS-SET-BU-ONLY-500SETS-/370518987756?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644a713ec

I didn't look at the seller, just the coins. As far as I can tell, I don't think the seller knows the difference between genuine and fake coins.

I am not familiar with the monk set. It is beautiful, and although I can't say for certain since I am not familiar with them, they do look like they may be fakes.

How I can tell about the pagodas is by how they were made. It would be hard to describe if I tried, but I can't share the details publicly because it would help the fakers make better fakes.

I have a lot of expertise in manufacturing, which comes in handy when I notice that a coin was made using a process that's different from what a professional mint would normally use. Some processes are ideal for making original, genuine coins (like the mint does), and other processes are ideal for making copies.

The copies can be very, very good, but it's still possible to tell what technique was used to make them - or at least that it's not the technique that the mints normally use.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 02:13:40 AM »
Almost all of the pagodas coming to the market recently are fake. The sellers are usually not aware of it, and they will insist that the coins are genuine. These "Yoda pagodas" are usually pretty convincing, but they won't get through NGC's authentication process for the same reasons I'm able to spot them. Here's a fake set that recently sold:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370518989733

Someone bought the pagoda set for US $1,699.99.

The monk set look fake.  The surface is not smooth; especially the 1st one near the edge.  Surface look similar to some bad plated medals.  On the 2nd one, what are those high point dot near the top of the monk head.

Offline Kamil

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 02:16:16 AM »
Take a look at the tree left to the Fogong Temple Pagoda, looks like a gardener showed up recently on the left one. The entrance is also a bit wide open there. (left - DingDing auction, right NGC graded "version")


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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 03:06:06 AM »
Nice job on the photos, Kamil.

Offline dobedo

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 08:07:20 AM »
Almost all of the pagodas coming to the market recently are fake. The sellers are usually not aware of it, and they will insist that the coins are genuine.
Only the ungraded ones? I saw a bunch graded pagodas came up for sale recently. NGC database also showed quite a few recently graded pagodas.

tamo42

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 10:48:33 AM »
That's one of the advantages of NGC guaranteeing the authenticity of a coin.

Offline bonke

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 12:53:33 PM »
I have NGC graded monk and pagoda sets.

Yesterday, I compared my monk set to the Ebay listed set.  The differences were numerous and dramatic.  I tried to compare my pagoda set to the listed set.  This was more difficult with the double plastic on the listed set.  Still, since the monk set has significant issues, I decided the pagoda set was not worth considering for purchase.  The seller indicates his experience and expertise - if one set has a problem, why take a chance on the other set.

Mark Bonke


Offline badon

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 01:06:14 PM »
Take a look at the tree left to the Fogong Temple Pagoda, looks like a gardener showed up recently on the left one. The entrance is also a bit wide open there. (left - DingDing auction, right NGC graded "version")



Do you have more, better photos of the NGC graded set?

Offline badon

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 01:07:54 PM »
I have NGC graded monk and pagoda sets.

Yesterday, I compared my monk set to the Ebay listed set.  The differences were numerous and dramatic.  I tried to compare my pagoda set to the listed set.  This was more difficult with the double plastic on the listed set.  Still, since the monk set has significant issues, I decided the pagoda set was not worth considering for purchase.  The seller indicates his experience and expertise - if one set has a problem, why take a chance on the other set.

Mark Bonke

I am curious about the monk set. Could you start a topic about them, with photos of genuine coins? There is much to learn about those.

I also believe the monk set to be fake, even though I know nothing about them, other than how they were made.

Offline badon

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 01:12:29 PM »
The seller indicates his experience and expertise - if one set has a problem, why take a chance on the other set.

This is an important point. Many experienced people do not know that most of the "varieties" are actually fakes.

Offline r3globe

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2011, 01:23:00 PM »
I considered kamil's photos and went back and compared it to the coin in the fake set I used to own! With badon's help, I did a quick test on the set that identified them as fake (does not have to do with the details on the obverse). Since I understand his concerns for "fake improvement," I will let him decide whether he wants to post the test publically. I am posting the pics of my set for the forum's benefit.

Offline badon

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Re: fake pagodas
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2011, 01:42:33 PM »
Only the ungraded ones? I saw a bunch graded pagodas came up for sale recently. NGC database also showed quite a few recently graded pagodas.

I know of only one graded set that is probably fake. I have brought it to the attention of NGC. All the others I have seen are genuine. NGC's guarantee covers the fake coins. The coins need to be looked up on NGC's database to ensure they're genuine NGC holders and covered by NGC's guarantee. NGC won't guarantee a coin if it's in a fake slab.