Author Topic: Chinese 1920(9 years) fat man yuan shih kai silver coin with die clash error????  (Read 44672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Chinese 1920(9 years)fat man yuan shih kai silver dollar coin with die clash error?A new discovery?

Hi everyone,nice to see you all again.I need help from the coin experts to identify this coin with this unique error.This is a Chinese 1920(9 years) yuan shih kai silver dollar coin from my collection.Obviously,there are a few things "Extra" appeared on obverse and reverse sides surface(both sides),



On obverse side,

There are two unusual dots and a hair line appeared on the left and right of the uniform.



On reverse side,

There is a rainbow with a few lines just right below the chinese word "yuan" and one of the leaf on the right side has short and long sharp torns on it but the leaf on the left side with no torns at all clearly showing on the last scan.Seems the "yuan" is right on the rainbow and the only leaf on the right side that grow sharp torns on it.Everytime I try to use my fingernail to dig the torns part softly and my fingernail would struck there from getting through,this is to confirm the torn die is there.



In my personal opinion,I would consider it as "Unique error silver coin" becouse I have never seen before something like this(especially the rainbow and torn parts)appeared on this Chinese yuan shih kai silver dollar coin and probably Im the first person who discovered this error parts.I also believe Chinese silver coin with error is certainly very very rare.



Unfortunely,I really have no idea what happend to this errors and die during process and unable to confirm if it is a new discovery on chinese silver coin or not.So I need help and opinion from the error coin expert to identifying the errors and die of it,help is always apprieciated from me.Remember to click,enlarge and view every superlarge scans below and see error parts carefully.Anyway,I hope to hear from you very soon.Thank you and have a nice day.



NOTE:THIS COIN IS GUARANTEE 100% ORIGINAL AND GENUINE CHINESE SILVER COIN BUT NOT COUNTERFEIT AND REPRODUCTION TYPE BECOUSE IT WAS PASSED DOWN FROM MY GRANDMA TO MY FATHER FROM CHINA ON LAST TIME.









Offline hc286

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
Those are nice die clash errors. The older coins have so many error and variaties. These coins were produced in vast quantities that it is bound to happen especially with poor quality control in some cases. I don't think there is list of all errors available.

In the US, there isn't a big demand for die clashes, unless it is a major one. Value is determined what ever the buyer is willing to pay for it.

I have a double die 1939 2cent piece and many coins with die cracks. I also have a 1914 dollar with an interesting edge reeding; it looks like it overlapped a little bit (not like the recent fake overlap reeds). This too was given by my grandmother. It has two chop marks on the obverse (I have not see one fake with chop marks so far).

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Those are nice die clash errors. The older coins have so many error and variaties. These coins were produced in vast quantities that it is bound to happen especially with poor quality control in some cases. I don't think there is list of all errors available.

In the US, there isn't a big demand for die clashes, unless it is a major one. Value is determined what ever the buyer is willing to pay for it.

I have a double die 1939 2cent piece and many coins with die cracks. I also have a 1914 dollar with an interesting edge reeding; it looks like it overlapped a little bit (not like the recent fake overlap reeds). This too was given by my grandmother. It has two chop marks on the obverse (I have not see one fake with chop marks so far).

Thank you for your comment,I apprieiciate for your comment very much.Is that a 1914 yuan shih kai silver dollar coin exactly look like this except the year is difference of what you mean on this comment or other type of coin?I hope to hear from you as soon as possible.See you soon. ;) ;) ;)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Hi,nice to see some of you once again.Fortunely,I have just discovered another "unique error" on the security edge of this coin beside die clash error.I really have no idea what kind of error is this and it is not a common error on any coin.I have never ever seen something like this before and probably this is the first time I have seen something like this,so I would consider and call it as "unique error".Obviously,I can see there are two thicker lines or teeth than the rest on the security edge showing on the superlarge scan below,the left tooth is eventually much more thicker than the right tooth.Normally,the teeth on the security edge are all the same size(on each tooth).Probably this is a double error coin(die clash and security edge errors).

May I know what kind of error is this on the security edge?Is this considered as "unique error" type?Is this a common or rare error?What happened to this silver dollar coin during the processing?I hope someone can tell me something about this error and also answer all my questions,I need help from you and your help is apprieiciated from me.Thank you very much.I will see you soon. ;) ;) ;)




« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 11:27:34 AM by chinese_item »

Offline hc286

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
I am not sure about the error on the reeding. That is the same type I have on my 1914 yuan that I mentioned. I have a fake Momento yuan with an obvious fake reeding. I don't have any other fakes to compare to.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
I am not sure about the error on the reeding. That is the same type I have on my 1914 yuan that I mentioned. I have a fake Momento yuan with an obvious fake reeding. I don't have any other fakes to compare to.

Thank you for replying me.By the way,Did you notice beside this two errors on this coin,the chinese word "yuan" and the bottom center part are with double die errors showing on reverse side of this coin.I have never seen before any of the chinese silver coin with this double die error especially the double die "yuan" correct me If Im wrong of this.Did your silver yuan with this errors exactly same like this?Anyway,the double die error parts are pointed out by red arrow showing on the superlarge scans below.Check it out and let me know what you think.



Offline hc286

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
Yeah I just noticed it. That is a nice double die there.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Yeah I just noticed it. That is a nice double die there.

Good :thumbup:,Im so glad that you noticed it.Unfortunely,there were some people from ebay said that this silver coin is a counterfeit that pissed me off.Thanks to those CHINESE PEOPLE from china that keep making counterfeit coins all the time but I believe this piece is 100% a genuine item and I wanted to get a certificate for it,so that this people from ebay would shut their mouth up.By the way,do you know where can I send this item for a certificate something like PCGS but Im not living in USA or CHINA.Any suggestion? :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 09:35:22 AM by chinese_item »

Offline hc286

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
I have not done the PCGS or any other third party grading process before. Maybe try contacting them through their websites. Go with the reputable companies.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Hi chinese_item,

As a small chinese coins dealer. I will tell you honestly this coin is 100% genuine. I found some similar coin in one of my friendly coin dealer shop. Take a look: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=4321740621
It is not exactly the same look coin as yours but you can notice and it is nearly similar. I hope it will help you somehow. Please contact with "expat" on zeno.ru and he will help you. Just post the picture of your coin. But remember use white background cause those guys are very sensitive about this thing. The best way however is to grade those 2 coins in NGC or ANACS. PCGS is also good company, but right now they have a lot of problem with fake holders. So better send to NGC or ANACS. Once you will send your coins there your all questions will be answered. But I am telling you, that your coins are very genuine and because of those errors they are even more valuable, cause it is hard or even impossible to find the same looking coin. Don't worry my friend! :001_smile: :thumbup:
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear hc286,

You mentioned that you have 1914 dollar with an interesting edge reeding. Is that YSK dollar 1914 has "O" in the ribbon bowl? I would like to see if it is possible here the edge of this coin. Could you post it here. Thanks :001_smile:
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
I have not done the PCGS or any other third party grading process before. Maybe try contacting them through their websites. Go with the reputable companies.


I have sent this coin to NGC coin company to obtain a plastic capsulated last year.Unfortunely,NGC commented "Unverifible" when returned back from there and I need to pay for the fees and waited for two months to receive back from there,waste of my time and money.If the experts from NGC commented "Unverifible",they should not have charged me a single cent except for the postage return charge only.Beside that,I have also sent other chinese silver coins together with this coin to there at the same time,other chinese silver coins received comments like "Unauthority questionable" and also "Questionable".NGC has more than 10 coin experts working there but non of them can certify this coin.I am thinking and wondering are they really experts in chinese silver coins or not.


There are a few reasons below why did ngc comments like this during the examination:


1.They are not really expert and know how to identify chinese silver coins

2.They do not want most of the chinese coin collectors and dealers to make money especially from the asian region

3.They want you to throw away your genuine chinese silver coin after give comment like this,so that other genuine chinese silver coins are getting less and less and become more valueble next time

4.They want those previous chinese silver coins with ngc capsulated to be sold first before issuing new ngc capsulated to the latest chinese silver coins they receive

5.They only provide this ngc capsulated to their own stuffs,friends,family and those dealers who are related to them,so that they can sell higher price and make more money place like ebay and auction house

6.They keep giving this kind of comments just because they can keep making more money by receive more and more chinese silver coins without capsulated

This are the 6 reasons of what I thought of them and maybe it is also applied to other coin companies like pcgs,icg,anac and ana.

I believe most of the chinese coin collectors received comments like this when they received back their chinese silver coins from many difference coin companies in united states.Especially applied for those chinese coin collectors from asian regions.Dont get me wrong,you might send your chinese silver coin to any of this coin company for grading and capsulated,hopefully you might be the lucky one to get the capsulated with grading,just try your own luck and it is very hard to say.I would like to apologize to some chinese coin collectors and the experts from any of this coin company if you are disagree with me but this reasons are just my thought.


Anyway,I have promised myself that I will never send any of my chinese silver coin to any of this coin company for capsulating and grading again.I have also swear to god.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Hi chinese_item,

As a small chinese coins dealer. I will tell you honestly this coin is 100% genuine. I found some similar coin in one of my friendly coin dealer shop. Take a look: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=4321740621
It is not exactly the same look coin as yours but you can notice and it is nearly similar. I hope it will help you somehow. Please contact with "expat" on zeno.ru and he will help you. Just post the picture of your coin. But remember use white background cause those guys are very sensitive about this thing. The best way however is to grade those 2 coins in NGC or ANACS. PCGS is also good company, but right now they have a lot of problem with fake holders. So better send to NGC or ANACS. Once you will send your coins there your all questions will be answered. But I am telling you, that your coins are very genuine and because of those errors they are even more valuable, cause it is hard or even impossible to find the same looking coin. Don't worry my friend! :001_smile: :thumbup:


HI,KONDI


I believe you are a chinese coin expert and know how to identify if a chinese silver coin is a genuine or not beside a dealer.I suggest that you should work for the ngc company because you are a true and real chinese coin expert than those experts from ngc company and they should have fired immediately.I should have sent this coin to you first then you take it to ngc and tell the experts that this coin is a genuine piece and capsulate it,just kidding.Anyway,thank you for your comment and I apprieiciate it very much.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
You welcome!
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item,

I must say that I totally agree with you about NGC. NGC is American grading company. They have a lot of experts there but I also think that those people are not really experts and don't know how to identify chinese silver coins. I can't say that they don't know how to identify all chinese silver coins but here are not experts in varieties of old Chinese silver coins.
For example I used to send my 1 dollar Yuan Shih Kai 1914 Sinkiang (or Xinjiang) variety to NGC, and what happened 2 months later when I got the coin back. It wasn't graded, they wrote "Authenticity Unverifiable". I talked with my colleagues which are all small coin dealers or coin agents they all took a look on the coin once again and said this is not fake coin or authenticity unverifiable, only those guys from NGC just don't have enough knowledge to verify the coin. So I wasted 70$ and didn't get anything from them. I also think that they did this because nowadays old chinese silver coins are sooo popular among coin collectors in the whole world that everyone wanna have high graded one and in NGC or PCGS. If the coin is genuine but not graded people become picky and don't wanna buy the coin cause they thought that if it is not graded by NGC/PCGS or ANACS then it must be fake. They believe in NGC/PCGS and ANACS like in God. So those coin experts really wanna rise the value of those graded chinese silver coins by them by saying "Authenticity Unverifiable" or some other funny comments. In China the value of Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety of YSK dollar 1914 is worth much more than general issued YSK 1914. So what happened with my YSK 1914 Sinkiang variety. I sent it to PCGS and they graded it finally. I cost me another waste of money. The same is with Shandong variety of YSK 1914 dollar - IT CAN'T BE GRADE BY NGC! If you will send your coin there it will come back "Authenticity Unverifiable"
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2289.0
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
I also agree with you that they might give such of comment: Unverifible, Unauthority questionable and also Questionable cause they wanna make more money for recieving more and more chinese silver coins without capsulated, and later what? You throw them away because NGC/PCGS or ANACS are Gods in grading coins and they know the best what is genuine and what is not.
They might also capsulated to their own stuffs,friends,family and those dealers who are related to them,so that they can sell higher price and make more money place like ebay and auction house. I have nothing against NGC/PCGS or ANACS but if they are real coin experts they should know is the coin is geuine or not genuine. Not give comment between and you don't know what to do with your coin. That's why I also promised myself that I won't send anymore any of my chinese silver coin to them. To waste money and get nothing. If they will live in China, then they could learn more about varieties of YSK dollar and other coins. Like why they can't grade Sinkiang variety of YSK 1914 because they never seen such of variety or at least they didn't say a lot. Buyers also don't think when they are buying some graded coins from me. Like F condition 10 cents 1914 YSK one buyer wanted buy for 35$, and when I sent it to NGC they charged me 60$ for express grading (within 10 days) and 10$ for mailing fee. That's why I don't grade anymore my old chinese silver coins only sell them not graded. If coin is not graded it doesn't mean that coin is fake, especially when I provide good pictures of edge, reverse and obverse.
That's all what I would like to say about this all grading coins.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
I also agree with you that they might give such of comment: Unverifible, Unauthority questionable and also Questionable cause they wanna make more money for recieving more and more chinese silver coins without capsulated, and later what? You throw them away because NGC/PCGS or ANACS are Gods in grading coins and they know the best what is genuine and what is not.
They might also capsulated to their own stuffs,friends,family and those dealers who are related to them,so that they can sell higher price and make more money place like ebay and auction house. I have nothing against NGC/PCGS or ANACS but if they are real coin experts they should know is the coin is geuine or not genuine. Not give comment between and you don't know what to do with your coin. That's why I also promised myself that I won't send anymore any of my chinese silver coin to them. To waste money and get nothing. If they will live in China, then they could learn more about varieties of YSK dollar and other coins. Like why they can't grade Sinkiang variety of YSK 1914 because they never seen such of variety or at least they didn't say a lot. Buyers also don't think when they are buying some graded coins from me. Like F condition 10 cents 1914 YSK one buyer wanted buy for 35$, and when I sent it to NGC they charged me 60$ for express grading (within 10 days) and 10$ for mailing fee. That's why I don't grade anymore my old chinese silver coins only sell them not graded. If coin is not graded it doesn't mean that coin is fake, especially when I provide good pictures of edge, reverse and obverse.
That's all what I would like to say about this all grading coins.


Yes,please do not send your genuine chinese silver coins to any of the coin grading company for verifying and grading anymore because their not really experts in chinese silver coins,waste of your precious time and money.The most possible reason is maybe they are really experts in chinese silver coins but they are not allowed most of the unknown collectors and dealers to sell and make money on ebay and other place like auction after capsulate it because I have quite a few of this yuan shih kai silver coins with this die clash rainbow appeared exactly the same position on the reverse side just like this coin,those coins are with ngc,pcgs and icg capsulated or holders selling on ebay,hard to believe.I believe this sellers are related to the people from this coin grading companies in united stated.Beside that,I even heard off the people from the coin grading companies capsulated and graded many fake chinese silver coins to their own people such as their family,relatives,friends and stuff then sold them on ebay and many collectors and dealers thought this fake chinese coins are genuine pieces when they received them because of capsulated and graded.Another matter is most of the western people only believe in coin grading companies capsule,holder or certificate to confirm that the coin is a genuine piece,they would treat those chinese silver coins are not genuine pieces if the coin is with no capsulated,holder or certificate and probably they would not buy it at all but to most of the chinese collectors and dealers from china,it is in a opposite way.Most of the chinese collectors and dealers from china,they are true and real experts especially from the auction house in beijing and shanghai,their not interested in this coin grading companies capsule and holder at all included the grading because they only believe in their own eyes and themself,they really know how to identify if a chinese silver coin is a genuine piece or not and they have sold many extremely rare chinese silver coins at many difference record high prices at their own auction houses back in 2007.In order to sell your genuine chinese silver coins,please take them to china and sell them to the collectors and dealers because there are many chinese coin dealers take their chinese silver coins to china and sell over there every month,believe me.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item.

I agree with you. In Hosane Auction House in Shanghai: http://www.hosane.com/
they are also selling old chinese silver coins.
I have been there on their few auctions. Some coins are graded by NGC, some buy PCGS but most of coins are not graded. And it doesn't mean that they are fake. And for the same coin in NGC or PCGS slab you have to spend 3 x more than for the same coin which is not graded. Some coin collectors don't need NGC or PCGS guarantee. They just go to trustful coin dealer or auction house in China and they can still buy genuine coins over there. I have nothing against NGC or PCGS or any other grading company, but who knows better about those old chinese silver coins than coin experts from China by themselves. I am not saying here that other experts are stupid or what. However as an example if NGC doesn't grade Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety of Yuan Shih Kai dollar 1914 because of silver content is low and because they probably don't know much about this variety, then I can bravely say that they have still a lot of to learn about old chinese silver coins. You guys can agree with me or not but this is what I think.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Dear chinese_item.

I agree with you. In Hosane Auction House in Shanghai: http://www.hosane.com/
they are also selling old chinese silver coins.
I have been there on their few auctions. Some coins are graded by NGC, some buy PCGS but most of coins are not graded. And it doesn't mean that they are fake. And for the same coin in NGC or PCGS slab you have to spend 3 x more than for the same coin which is not graded. Some coin collectors don't need NGC or PCGS guarantee. They just go to trustful coin dealer or auction house in China and they can still buy genuine coins over there. I have nothing against NGC or PCGS or any other grading company, but who knows better about those old chinese silver coins than coin experts from China by themselves. I am not saying here that other experts are stupid or what. However as an example if NGC doesn't grade Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety of Yuan Shih Kai dollar 1914 because of silver content is low and because they probably don't know much about this variety, then I can bravely say that they have still a lot of to learn about old chinese silver coins. You guys can agree with me or not but this is what I think.


I also agree with you that most of the extremely rare genuine chinese silver coins sold without this plastic capsulated,slabs or holders at the auction house in shanghai because the chinese collectors or dealers do not want their extremely rare chinese silver coins to leave china and they are afraid that they will never get back their extremely rare chinese silver coins back again if they sent it to oversea country for capsulating and grading.


There are two main reasons why did the most coin companies normally commented "Unverifiable","Questionable","Unauthocity questionable" or "Unauthocity unverifiable" for your genuine chinese silver coins when returned back from there.

First reason-They are not really experts in chinese silver coins and they are not sure and never seen about this variety like the die clash rainbow appeared on the yuan shih kai silver dollar coins just like this coin.

Second reason-They are really experts in chinese silver coins and they are sure and know anything about and have seen this variety like the die clash rainbow appeared on the yuan shih kai silver dollar coins just like this coin but they do not allowed most of the unknown collectors and dealers to help them for verifying,grading and making money after capsulate it started one or two years ago because they only issue this capsule or holder to their own family,relatives,friends and stuffs to help them to sell on the auction website like ebay,so they can make alot of money from the foreigners in this economy situation.Beside that,they keep commenting like this because they can receive more and more genuine chinese silver coins without capsules or holders then their coin companies keep making alot of money from the collectors and dealers around the world.


There are many more other reasons like what I have stated on the previous page,please refer back to the first page.I have just realised this two main reasons of what I thought,it is up to you to believe me or not.Thank you for reading.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
If my first reason is true,that is means they are still honest just like last time they used to be because they are afraid to capsule and grade chinese silver coins if the chinese silver coins are fake.

Or else

If my second reason is true,that is means they are dishonest or no more honest started back one or two years ago because they only give this capsule and grade their own coins from their own family,relative,friends and stuffs just to help them to make money on ebay and other place like auction house.Beside that,they know that the chinese silver coins are fake then capsule and grade it just to make more money from the collectors and dealers around the world.


Hopefully my first reason is true and second reason is wrong.If not,their coin companies reputation will be destroyed and nobody will send his/her chinese silver coins for verifying and grading anymore next time.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Totally agree with you!
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
Totally agree with you!


Hi,KONDI


         I fully 100% agree with you too that those chinese silver coins without coin grading company capsulated,holders or slabs do not mean that those chinese silver coins are fake coins and the collectors should not give up their chinese silver coins if without capsulated,holders or slabs when return back from the coin companies in oversea,maybe their chinese silver coins are genuine pieces but not fake.Beside that,those chinese coin experts from the auction housee in beijing and shanghai are not so interested in this capsulated,holders or slabs from the coin grading companies because their true and real experts and they only believe in their own eyes and themself for sure.Beside that,they also think that this experts from the coin grading companies are not really experts in old chinese silver coin and also think they always play cheating and dishonest in grading old chinese silver coins,that is why they have sold many extremely rare chinese silver coins without this capsulated,holders or slabs from this coin grading companies back in 2007,they sold them at their auction houses in beijing and shanghai.So,the best way to sell your genuine chinese silver coins are at the auction houses in beijing and shanghai,you willy only believe this chinese coin experts say but not those fake chinese coin experts from the coin grading companies in united states.Anyway,I feel sorry if I hurt the fake expert feeling and I would like to apologise to the fake expert over here.

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
HI KONDI


        Since you said and confirmed this coin is a genuine piece because of this errors appeared on this coin.Surprisingly,the weight of this coin is much more heavy than a normal piece which is 27.55 grams instead of 26.6 to 26.9 grams normally on all of yuan shih kai silver dollar coins.I believe this is the most heavy old chinese silver dollar coin ever made and discovered so far and none of yuan shih kai silver dollar coins included the dragon dollar silver coins are at this weight or more heavy than this weight,you will never see an old chinese silver dollar coin at this weight too or more than this weight.


        I need help and explain especially from KONDI and also dragondollar to tell me what happend to this coin.Is it possible this coin contents more silver material in it?Please check the weight of your yuan shih kai silver dollar coin right now if you have one and let me know what you think,hope to hear from both of you soon and both of your help are much apprieiciated.Please refer to the scan below.Thank you and have a nice day.



Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item :001_rolleyes:

Your Yuan Shih Kai 1920 silver dollar is a genuine coin! :thumbup: I have no doubt about it.
This is overweight Hainan variety. I have similar such of coins for sell. Please take a look on those photos below.
Of course condition of mine is not the same as your coin.

My both Hainan variety coins are overweight: 27,57 to 27,6g. NGC, PCGS, IGC neither ANACS can't deal with grading Hainan vatiety!!! Their coin experts have never seen Hainan variety believe me. Maybe some coin collectors sent them a few of them but I doubt that they graded even 1, only they sent them back to those coin collectors with comment: "Unverifiable".

I am not sure about silver content in Hainan variety but as far as I know Sinkiang (Xinjiang) and Kansu (Gansu) varieties of Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914 have low silver content.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Here is an example of my Yuan Shih Kai Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety.
Sinkiang variety has 39,5mm in diameter and 27,1g in weight. It is also overweight coin which after returned to me from NGC, they gave me a comment: "Unverifiable". So what I did, I took the coin to 10 coin experts here in China cause I thought that maybe I am wrong. If those BIG experts from NGC say "NOT SURE" for my coin, so I thought maybe I am wrong. But those 10 coin experts from auction houses and coin dealers. They all confirmed that this is Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety! So after all BIG experts from NGC was wrong, not me! That's why I started doubt in those American grading coin companies.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Some people don't believe that Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety can be much more expensive than regular issued Yuan Shih Kai dollar. Here is the proof that they are more expensive!
Take a look on this link: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7610465952
This coin on Chinese taobao.com (which is similar to eBay) used to cost 1800 RMB
And take a look how much does it cost right now?
3570 RMB + 6 RMB for transport. Can you see this?
The price of this coin nearly increased twice!
Why is that? Cause Sinkiang vatiety is much more rare than general issued YSK dollars. That's why the prices of old chinese silver coins in China are much higher than outside of China.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item :001_rolleyes:

Here is another Hainan variety of YSK dollar 1914.

This coin is overweight too: 27,54g. But it is genuine coin!

So do not get rid of your Hainan variety even NGC couldn't confirm that it is genuine.

I do not discriminate here NGC or any other grading comapny and say to all of you to do not grade your coins at all and don't send them your coins. Those coin experts from NGC/PCGS or ANACS have a lot of experience with many coins from the world but they still have to improve their knowledge about old chinese silver coins especially about varieties of Yuan Shih Kai dollars.

I can bravely say that more about old chinese silver coins know Chinese coin experts than NGC or other grading coin company from US.

Of course there are a lot of fakes in China as well. However let's respect also those true experts from China who really know what's going on.

We all knows that old chinese coins in NGC are worth more than not graded coin.

Nowadays people are fancy with NGC/PCGS or other grading companies. But how do we know that their judgement "Authenticity Unverifiable" is right judgement or maybe simple they do not have that much knowlege to make a right judgement.

How knows, maybe it is because old chinese silver coins are the most wanted silver coins in the world and everyone wanna have one piece. So NGC or others think that they have power and authority to judge are those coins are genuine or not. They know very good that prices are rising for those coins and they also know that if they will grade too many of those coins, the prices might drop down, so they take an action to do not grade too many to keep prices on high level. That's my personal opionion.

You can agree with me or disagree with me, but old chinese silver coin which in not graded by NGC or others, it doesn't mean that coin is fake.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Here is the the heaviest old chinese silver Yuan Shih Kai dollar 1914 which I have.
This is private issued YSK dollar 1914. It is northwest style. It is hard to say by which warlord this coin was issued.
It has 28,5 grams (it is overweight coin). The silver content is only 8%! But this coin is genuine issued probably after Yuan Shih Kai (Hung-hsien) died in 1916.

Dear chinese_item,
Here is my answer that your Hainan variety is genuine coin but it is possible your coin contents less silver material in it.
For sure I can tell you that Sinkiang (Xinjiang) variety has low silver content, that's why it is weight more. Below you can see Shandong varieties (all those coins) are Shandong varieties. Such of coin has 27,5g and 39,2mm in diameter and it is genuine. But it content less silver.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
I forgot to add photos of my northwest style variety of YSK dollar 1914 which is overweight: 28,5g
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
HI,KONDI


        First of all,I would like to thank you so much for your effort of your explaination in detail and scans on above.Before that,I always think and believe that all of those chinese yuan shih kai silver dollar coins are having the same weight within 26.6 grams to 26.9 grams just like most of the people thought but I was wrong until I found out and realised that every yuan shih kai silver dollar coin has difference weight from difference province in china of what you said over here.


Now I can confirm that my yuan shih kai coin(Year 9) is a hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coin because it was passed down by my grandmother to my father in hainan long time ago and I can see that your hainan yuan shih kai coin(Year 9) also has the die clash rainbow appeared on the same position below the yuan exactly same like mine except for the condition.This is to confirm your hainan and my hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coins are genuine pieces and the die clash rainbow are constant variety too.Anyway,I would like to apologize to you that I have made a mistake and thought wrongly about the weight of this coin over here and hope to learn more about this yuan shih kai silver dollar coin from you even more.Your informations and scans are very helpful to me and I apprieiciate you very much.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item,

You are welcome. Yes, there are a lot of varieties from different provinces in China.
1.Gansu Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914 is the most common.
2. Tibet Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914 is also common made in 1950s by communsits.
3. Hainan Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1920.
4. Xinjiang Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914 is more rare than Gansu type.
5. Shandong Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914 is much more rare than Xinjiang type (the price is 9000 - 10000 RMB nowadays!)

6. There are also others varieties issued by warlords after Yuan Shih Kai (Hung-hsien) died. But it is hard to verify them.

7. There are also contemporary counterfeit, like Hunan Type which means that it was made at the same time as the original circulating coin Yuan Shih Kai dollar dated 1914. Such of coins are even more valuable than general issued. Even Hunan type is contemporary counterfeit but it was made in 1914, so the price is higher.

Please do not understand me wrong. Hainan, Xinjiang, Shandong and Gansu are not contemporary counterfeits. Those are just varieties from different provinces from China. But Hunan type is such of case, is contemporary counterfeits but it was issued in the same time when general YSK dollar 1914 was issued. Take a look on a picutre of YSK 1914 Hunan type.
This coin weight only: 25,4g and diameter is: 39,2mm.
By the way I am not small coin dealer from US. I am European coin dealer from Shanghai.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
HI,KONDI


        Sorry for misunderstanding you are a small coin dealer from united states.I believe you are a big dealer from shanghai and your business must be very good over there.May god bless you and I pray for you.Since you have mentioned the rareness of those yuan shih kai silver dollar coin variations but you did not mention about the rareness of the hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coin,how about the the rareness of this coin?Rare or common piece?Why is it only one dated which is 1920?Hope to hear from you soon and thank you so much.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear chinese_item,

There are 2 hainan variations of YSK dollar 1920. The one which you have is a crude type, which is more heavier than 27,5-27,6g. Such of coin is more rare than Gansu and Tibet variety of YSK 1914. However Xinjiang variety and Shandong variety are much more rare than Hainan YSK dated 1920. Why there are only 2 coins and both dated 1920?
Unfortunately, I can't explain you this. But I can tell you that no matter which coin dealer you will ask in China who sells genuine silver chinese coins or some coin experts from auction house they can tell you that this is Hainan variety.
As I told you there are 2 Hainan variations of YSK dollar dated 1920. One is crude type which you have. The price of such of coin here in China is from 1400-2500 RMB even. The second one Hainan variation is also made in Hainan but is more common coin and it easy to find it here. Such of details like hair and others are on the surface of the coin are very clear, also it is easy to grade such of coin bu NGC/PCGS and others. The price of the common Hainan variety is from 900-1200 RMB here, depends on condition. Let me show you the picture of common variety which is more common than Tibet and Gansu variety.
HI,KONDI


        Sorry for misunderstanding you are a small coin dealer from united states.I believe you are a big dealer from shanghai and your business must be very good over there.May god bless you and I pray for you.Since you have mentioned the rareness of those yuan shih kai silver dollar coin variations but you did not mention about the rareness of the hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coin,how about the the rareness of this coin?Rare or common piece?Why is it only one dated which is 1920?Hope to hear from you soon and thank you so much.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
This is second common Hainan variety (pictures below)
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline chinese_item

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: -60
HI,KONDI


        Yes,the yuan shih kai hair and detail are very clear showing on the scans of this coin.Beside that,it does not have the die clash rainbow exactly right below the yuan and probably it is another hainan variety like what you mentioned on above there.Anyway,I know everything about my hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coin because of you.Once again,Thank you so much for helping me over here.

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
You are welcome.
HI,KONDI


        Yes,the yuan shih kai hair and detail are very clear showing on the scans of this coin.Beside that,it does not have the die clash rainbow exactly right below the yuan and probably it is another hainan variety like what you mentioned on above there.Anyway,I know everything about my hainan yuan shih kai silver dollar coin because of you.Once again,Thank you so much for helping me over here.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline PhilMunch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: 0
I recently bought 6 Chinese coins, all large "silver" in color, 4 of them are yuan shih kai Fat man Dollar varities, with 1914, 1919, 1920 dates, the 2 others are Dragon Coins .. one with just a Dragon on one side, the other with a misspelled province,   HE-PEH PROVINCE, instead of HU-PEH , looks like this ... http://www.silver-coins.org/chinese_dragon_hu-peh_province.html

All weigh 0.7 ounces
All magnetic

Does these mean they are ALL Fakes ? Are any real coins from this era magnetic ?

They are such cool coins, love the Large Chinese Silver Coins

Thanks in advance,

Phil

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear PhilMunch,

If those all 6 coins are magnetic, then those are all fakes for sure.
Those YSK dollars or Dragon dollars were made with silver, and silver is non-magnetic metal, so you can be sure that those are modern fakes. There are some varieties of YSK 1914 dollar which were made by warlords, like Gansu variety, Sinkiang variety, Shandong variety and other unverified vatieties of YSK 1914 dollar which for example content only 8% of silver, but they are still non-magnetic coin. Maybe you can post pictures of your 6 coins here, then I can say more about your coins.

I recently bought 6 Chinese coins, all large "silver" in color, 4 of them are yuan shih kai Fat man Dollar varities, with 1914, 1919, 1920 dates, the 2 others are Dragon Coins .. one with just a Dragon on one side, the other with a misspelled province,   HE-PEH PROVINCE, instead of HU-PEH , looks like this ... http://www.silver-coins.org/chinese_dragon_hu-peh_province.html

All weigh 0.7 ounces
All magnetic

Does these mean they are ALL Fakes ? Are any real coins from this era magnetic ?

They are such cool coins, love the Large Chinese Silver Coins

Thanks in advance,

Phil

KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline PhilMunch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: 0
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:12:26 PM by PhilMunch »

Offline PhilMunch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: 0
Coin 4 is another 1919 YSK Silver Coin ... Note the die marks on the Front, near upper collar and on unifrom and to the Left, same as the other 1919
 Reeded Edge:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Front:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Back:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Offline dragondollar

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 692
  • Karma: 25
  • Gender: Male
    • Dragon Dollar & Chinese Coins
Those are low grade fakes, similar to the 2 dragon dollars you posted in another topic.

Offline PhilMunch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: 0
Those are low grade fakes, similar to the 2 dragon dollars you posted in another topic.

Worthless, Eh ? I will use them as Poker Chips in my next game !!!!  Thanks for your replies, take care

Phil

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar.1914. The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ?


http://s018.radikal.ru/i500/1201/2a/573d2fd8745c.jpg[/img]

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar, 1914.The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ?

http://s017.radikal.ru/i415/1202/31/defe6bbb509e.jpg


http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1202/74/5b9eadbb7034.jpg
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 08:15:21 AM by Shamota »

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear Shamota,

Your links don't want to open. Everything is in Russian. Are you Russian?
Please post image of your coin/coins so I can say something about them.
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar, 1914.45 mm. 30,4 g. The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ?

http://s017.radikal.ru/i415/1202/31/defe6bbb509e.jpg


http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1202/74/5b9eadbb7034.jpg


Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar, 1914.45 mm/30,4 g.The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ? Maybe it's a fake?


Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar, 1914.The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ?

http://s017.radikal.ru/i415/1202/31/defe6bbb509e.jpg


http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1202/74/5b9eadbb7034.jpg

Offline epstein

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Karma: 0
HI Kondi,

just help to show the pictures  :001_rolleyes:




Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Republic, Yuan Shih-Kai Silver Dollar, 1914. 44 mm.30,4 g.The gurte eat inscription L.Georgi. How often it occurs ? Is this a rare coin. ?






http://s017.radikal.ru/i409/1202/74/5b9eadbb7034.jpg

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear epstein,
Thank you for your help of posting pictures of this coin.

Dear Shamota,
I am sorry to tell you but you coin is either white copper silver-plated fake and doesn't attach to magnet or it is silver-plated metal which sticks strongly to magnet.
From the look of this coin I would say it is 5 dollars 1914 Yuan Shih Kai with L.Giorgi.
The point is that 5 dollars "wu yuan" dated 1914 has never existed. They never issued such of coin with bust of Yuan Shih Kai. Another thing, the design of this coin is very cruel...I need one took to tell it is fake. Finally inscription L.Giorgi behind the right shoulder appears ONLY on pattern coins. There are very few pattern coins issued with L.Giorgi. Luigi Giorgi was Italian engraver, who design Yuan Shih Kai dollar. Do you know how rare YSK dollar 1914 with L.Giorgi is? It is extremely rare coin. Also L.Giorgi inscription they put on edge. There are too many evidences on this coin which speaks that it is fake. Once again sorry that I have to tell you this.
Be careful when you buy old chinese silver coins. Buy from trustful coin dealers. I sell old chinese silver coins on Buy, Sell and Trade section, every month I post "Old chinese silver coins for sale...". You can take a look and if you are interested you can contact with me you can have a good deal.

Best wishes from Shanghai,

KONDi
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Dear KONDi.
Thank you very much for your reply! I also suspect that the coin is a fake.
Yours faithfully.

Dear EPSTEIN.
Thank you for your help of posting pictures of this coin.

Yours faithfully.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:14:22 AM by Shamota »

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
KONDi.
 Yuan Shih Kai Flying Dragon Silver Dollar. 17,6 g./ 37 mm.   
http://radikal.ru/F/s018.radikal.ru/i510/1202/80/23eafec37810.jpg.html
You can recognize such a coin counterfeiting? this coin it is fake.
http://i023.radikal.ru/1202/0f/c1cffd56c341.jpg

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
KONDi.
 Yuan Shih Kai Flying Dragon Silver Dollar. 17,6 g./ 37 mm.   

You can recognize such a coin counterfeiting? this coin it is fake.
http://i023.radikal.ru/1202/0f/c1cffd56c341.jpg


« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 08:33:38 AM by Shamota »

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0

Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Dear KONDi.
Is there any reference to inscription L.Giorgi  on edge.   
Inscription:



Offline Shamota

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Dear KONDi.Is there any reference to inscription L.Giorgi  on edge.   
Inscription: L.Giorgi L.Giorgi L.Giorgi - LNC  +  next 16 Chinese characters .
Who could make this difficult word.? Was there any point in counterfeiting label? Is there another explanation?






Offline epstein

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Karma: 0
Hi Shamota,

Maybe you can use flickr or photobucket to upload pictures in this forum;
For reference, you may search using search engine

http://home.netvigator.com/~ykleungn/yuansk2.htm

http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?search=&view_mode=0&c=37&a=820&l=&page=3

Offline epstein

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Karma: 0
Add on about Silver Coin YSK with L. Giorgi words

Quote
Three distinct types (and numerous varieties) of Yuan Shih Kai dollars were produced beginning in 1914, all designed by Giorgi. An undated type shows Yuan in a facing portrait, wearing a military uniform and feathered hat (Kann 642; KM Y322 type; also known in gold). A second type, dated 1914, shows a three quarters (partly turned) bust of Yuan, in uniform but without a hat (Kann 643; KM Pn32). The last and most diverse type, also dated 1914 and which became a standard circulating coin, had a profile bust of Yuan in uniform without a hat (Kann 645; Y329; also known in gold). The second portrait was engraved first and was intended to be the standard type for circulation. A 1917 article by Dr. Giuseppi Ros, "Coins of the Republic of China," explains why the portrait was changed: ¡°This dollar [Kann 643] was never put in circulation. The engraver, Mr. L. Giorgi, whose name appears near the right shoulder of Yuan Shih Kai's bust, had been granted a special audience by the late President in order to submit to him the first specimen struck of his new dollar. But on seeing the President, whose portrait the engraver had reproduced only from a photograph, the artist was inspired to produce something better. Permission was then asked and granted to begin a new die, when the following coin [Kann 645 with profile portrait] was produced."

Giorgi, the most famous engraver of Chinese coins, was an excellent artist and produced some beautiful coins during late Ch'ing and early Republican times. Almost everything we know about Giorgi comes from the Ros article published in the Royal Asiatic Society (Shanghai branch) Journal for 1917, and Eduard Kann's "Illustrated Catalogue of Chinese Coins", published in Hong Kong in 1954. Giorgi was born around 1880. Before coming to Tientsin, he had worked for the medallic firm, Stabilimento Stefano, in Milan, Italy. He was the Chief Engraver at the Tientsin Central Mint from 1910 to 1917, after which he returned to Italy. He was still living in retirement in Italy in 1953, according to Kann, who was probably corresponding with him. Our other source of information on Giorgi's career, are the Chinese coins which bear his signature, all of them rare patterns.

Last record transaction Nov 30, 2011 (Coin Graded by NGC MS 63) @Champion Hong Kong Auction $ 130,000

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear Shamota,

If your parameters are correct then I must say it is fake without seeing it. 17,6g and 37mm are wrong parameters! Please post photos of obverse and reverse so I can tell you more. I can open your links. Please copy the pictures from those links and post here on the forum and also send on my email: cfrost1984@gmail.com so I can tell you more.

KONDi.
 Yuan Shih Kai Flying Dragon Silver Dollar. 17,6 g./ 37 mm.   
http://radikal.ru/F/s018.radikal.ru/i510/1202/80/23eafec37810.jpg.html
You can recognize such a coin counterfeiting? this coin it is fake.
http://i023.radikal.ru/1202/0f/c1cffd56c341.jpg

KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear epstein,

That's a good advice! Thanks for help.

Hi Shamota,

Maybe you can use flickr or photobucket to upload pictures in this forum;
For reference, you may search using search engine

http://home.netvigator.com/~ykleungn/yuansk2.htm

http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?search=&view_mode=0&c=37&a=820&l=&page=3
KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear epstein,

This is very good piece of information.

Add on about Silver Coin YSK with L. Giorgi words

Last record transaction Nov 30, 2011 (Coin Graded by NGC MS 63) @Champion Hong Kong Auction $ 130,000

KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear Shamota,

You are welcome and it is my pleasure to help you. If you want to show me other coin you MUST post photos of your coin here. Then I can say something about it.

Dear KONDi.
Thank you very much for your reply! I also suspect that the coin is a fake.
Yours faithfully.

Dear EPSTEIN.
Thank you for your help of posting pictures of this coin.

Yours faithfully.

KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)

Offline KONDi

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2850
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Dear Shamota,

There is NO such of coin with inscription L.Giorgi on edge. Such of coin does not exist!

Dear KONDi.
Is there any reference to inscription L.Giorgi  on edge.   
Inscription:



KONDi
cfrost1984@gmail.com
Chopmark Collectors Club member 368 (CCC)
Shanghai Token Society member 3 (STS)