WOW of the day

[pandamonium]

Have any of the silver plate pagodas been cut in half w/ photos?   How else do we make sure that they are plate?  If they are plate, then do they have any value?  Could they fall into the catagory of fantasy coin?  Great topic and lots of good information............

[Underbidder]

I think the problem is no owners of Pagodas think theirs is plated.  So no one is going to cut in half a medal they think is
worth a couple of grand.

Its not like the Goldfish, where plated ones are clearly for sale and differentiated by the design difference. The plated goldfish are available for
under $20 a piece, but no need to cut in half since its already known which ones are plated.  1984, Single Fish design, which came in
Fancy wooden box, distributed in 1984.  Why not then does it not make sense to realize that Pagodas sent out in 1984 in same fancy wooden box were not anything other than plated too?  Especially with the high numbers seen. Fact is, nobody tested them, or even now has good method to, nor even really wants to.
If you spent a several grand on a set, do you want to crack one out and saw it in half?

[pandamonium]

The set in question had several low grade pagodas and the entire set was about $1300.  The PF 68 were about $800 to $900.  Maybe one low grade pagoda is worth about $200+?  If so, then cut it in half and lets see what the facts are.  How else do we know for sure?  If anyone has a low grade "plated" pagoda that is damaged, low grade, maybe raw, would be a great candidate.  It should not be that big of a $ loss to answer some very important questions.  How else do we know for sure?........

[Underbidder]

The problem I see with that, is it'd only speak to THAT cut medal, since there are few differentiating features.

All other owners would want to continue to believe that theirs were real anyways.

[pandamonium]

I talked to a seasoned, honest ebay seller about the plate and sent CCF article to him.  He purchased from a very knowledgable dealer in China.  He swears that they are real.  What does NGC have to say about this?  Does the NGC warranty apply here?  Wonder how this will all play out......

[Underbidder]

 He swears that they are real.  

Real WHAT?

And how can he know?

Nobody knew some 1984 Goldfish  / single fish which were distributed in same year as some Pagodas in same fancy wooden box were plated, either, until recent scrutiny.
And they are still getting mixed up by sellers who just know in their heart of hearts that they are "real".  Yes they are real, and they are really plated.

Example of 1984 plated Goldfish set, being mis-sold as 1990 set, at overly high price as if 1990 set, showing  1984 fancy wooden box just like many Pagodas were sent out in:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-China-Silver-Goldfish-Proof-Medal-Set-4-COINS-/330660372143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfce4deaf#ht_500wt_922

Huge can of worms problem here.

[tamo42]

I rather assumed that NGC and PCGS have x-ray diffraction measurement devices. Testing metal content isn't the complicated. Why would they be fooled by silver plate?

[pandamonium]

Many say they are real including NGC.  So for now, maybe they are a new low mintage variety?  The real question is why are pagodas so controversial?  Mr. Ge gives them 4 stars.  Could the new variety called "plate" get 5 stars?  Who knows...............lots of questions few answers at this point........

[badon]

Sorry everyone, I haven't had time yet to study these more carefully. Panda Express's info was accurate last time I examined it, if I remember correctly. I have photos of most of the known population of pagodas in various places that I have obtained with permission from the dealers that handled them. When I get a chance, I can load them on the CC and maybe the CCF researchers can sort this out while I'm distracted.

NGC can not test the silver content of this coin since the silver plate of this coin is too thick to be tested accurately with x-ray.

That doesn't sound right:

http://www.horiba.com/scientific/products/x-ray-fluorescence-analysis/tutorial/penetration-depths/

Accourding to that, XRF can easily penetrate silver to the full thickness of an ordinary coin. If the coin is silver or gold, it might be able to penetrate more than 1 coin. The refiners I have talked to mentioned depths on the scale of a full centimeter (about the thickness of a 10 oz silver bar).

poconopenn, do you have more detailed information about how the pagodas were discovered to be problematic for XRF? Maybe that issue is confined to certain types of XRF equipment that can't generate the power levels that refiners use?

[Obsidian]

I rather assumed that NGC and PCGS have x-ray diffraction measurement devices. Testing metal content isn't the complicated. Why would they be fooled by silver plate?

With a standard submission do you think for one second that NGC actually uses any kind of machine on these coins before grading?  They certainly don't unless you specifically ask that some type of metal analysis be done and pay the price.

[bonke]

Do any of the forum members believe there are 1984 silver goldfish (with the one fish design)?  The comments in this topic discussion suggest that all 1984 goldfish are silver-plated.  I do not agree.  It is my strong opinion that 90% silver goldfish medals were struck by the Shanghai Mint in 1984.  I accept that there are copper golfish medals, silver-plated goldfish medals and gold-plated goldfish medals with the same design.  I do not accept that silver goldfish medals do not exist with the one fish design.  Mark Bonke

[tamo42]

With a standard submission do you think for one second that NGC actually uses any kind of machine on these coins before grading?  They certainly don't unless you specifically ask that some type of metal analysis be done and pay the price.

I do actually. It only takes a couple seconds.

[bonke]

NGC tested all of my goldfish medals for metal content.  I received the detailed results of metal content.  Have any of members of this forum had NGC test their pagoda or goldfish medals for metal content?  Are forum members saying they do not trust the NGC testing device?  Why cut up items in your collection when NGC can easily test your Chinese medals?  Mark Bonke

[poconopenn]

Poconopenn-

Do you believe that the Kaiyuan Temple ones with the disrupted border are proven non-plated? Could they be plated, from a different production run?

I think its known that the four-pouch sheet medals are plated, as are the four-pouch Goldfish /single fish/  1984 style.
Do you believe the wooden box Pagodas are plated too?  Just like the 1984 goldfish / single fish in the same box sent out in the same year are plated?

Tlhat might mean that most all the Pagodas out there, both now and earlier, and graded, are plated, Even both continuous border and non continuous border, and very few .90 are ever seen.

I believe that disrupted border is the genuine silver set. The design of silver and silver plated coin is almost identical, they have to be made with the same master die, especially, this master die was hand-made. It is not logical to remove part of line to make plated coin, since the plated set was believed being minted in a later year, 1986. It is very easy to remove material from the master die to create the line.

The fancy wooden box with imprinted Chinese characters of Shanghai Mint for pagoda and goldfish/single fish set was made in Taiwan. I do own silver pagoda set (disrupted border) with a flower embedded box and gold plated goldfish/single fish set with goldfish embedded box. Both sets were purchased from a reputable dealer in Japan in 2001.

[Obsidian]

NGC tested all of my goldfish medals for metal content.  I received the detailed results of metal content.  Have any of members of this forum had NGC test their pagoda or goldfish medals for metal content?  Are forum members saying they do not trust the NGC testing device?  Why cut up items in your collection when NGC can easily test your Chinese medals?  Mark Bonke

You had to specify they do this test and pay the fee right?  Many submitters don't request this I'm sure.