WOW of the day

[bonke]

Correct.  With the controversy surrounding certain Chinese medals, I thought it was better to have professional analysis than to merely speculate.  I had purchased two raw goldfish sets from private collectors/investors in the USA and two graded goldfish sets from FAN on Ebay.  With the controvery surrounding the metal content of these sets, I sent my graded goldfish sets, along with my raw goldfish sets, for analysis. The results were surprising, enlightening and, for FANs graded sets, disappointing.  I really appreciate NGC's ability to help me (as a collector) analyze, authenticate and grade the coins and medals in my collection.  I cannot speak more highly of an organization of diligent, competent and friendly people.  Mark Bonke (ps  I would certainly enjoy owning my own metal testing device so that I could immediately test the metal content of my purchases or potential purchases.)

[Underbidder]

Care to share the details of the dissappointing analysis?

Plated goldfish? 1984/ single fish?

[poconopenn]

The deepest pencentration of XRF for silver coin used by major Mint and Museum is 0.8 mm. I do not familar with NGC mechine and doubt very much it can be better than Mint or museum. If the thickness of silver plate is about 0.4 mm, which is the average thickness, the result of silver content will be in the range of 60-70%. Therefore, if the plated silver with thickness about 0.6 mm, the result will be close to 90% and possible higher since the detectablity of fluorescent x-ray decreased with the depth of the pencentration.   

[bonke]

The Fan-graded sets were silver plated.  My raw sets were not.

Still, if Poconopenn is correct, it is impossible to test whether a medal is silver, silver-plated, gold, gold-plated, platinum or platinum-plated. 

I do not have a scientific background and do not have the slightest idea how deeply the beams from an XRF machine can penetrate into a coin or medal or how thick the plating is on a silver-plated coin or medal.  I am able to test weight, thickness and diameter.  I do not know how to test specific gravity.  One day, if and when I purchase a XRF machine, I will happily test my potential purchases.  If the machine tells me the item is silver-plated, I (hopefully) will not purchase it.  If I do purchase it and still am worried, I will ask NGC to test it again before they authenicate, grade and slab it for me. At this point, I rely on the NGC analysis.

I am a collector.  I do want to add to my collection of Chinese coins and medals in the future.  I do not want to become so negative or frightened that I will stop "collecting".

Mark Bonke 

[Underbidder]

The Fan-graded sets were silver plated.  My raw sets were

Do you mind telling which type of medals were silver plated : one fish or two fish?
it would help give another bit of important info to collectors of these...

[bonke]

All 17 medals submitted have the same one-fish design.  Eight were silver-plated.  Nine were 90-91% silver.

I do have a 1990 silver goldfish set with the two-fish design.  I purchased it raw, submitted it at a different time and received 3-68s and 1-69.  I do know the difference between the two designs. 

I do not know how to tell the difference between the 1984 silver and silver-plated goldfish medals.  It will take someone more clever than I am to discover the "obvious" differences between the two types of one-fish medals.

Mark Bonke

[Underbidder]

Great bit of info to know...  Thanks-

The ramifications of this are that nobody is sure how many, or all of the one-fish Goldfish from 1984, are plated or solid .90.

The scary implication is that nobody knows if some, or many, or all, of the Pagoda sets from 1984, are plated or solid .90, either.

Or if thickly plated, IS .90 overall, but over a slug core?

Many questions remain.

[bonke]

You are welcome.

As time has passed, I have forgotten the issues with pagoda and goldfish medals.  It was interesting for me to read and participate in the discussion.  Now, I will go on and think about something else.  I always have something new for which I am searching to add to my collection.  Hopefully, when I revisit this issue, it will be because I have discovered a 1984 copper goldfish set.  I have seen pictures of it in one of my books and I have seen pictures posted by one of the forum members in early 2011, but I have never seen one for sale.  Best Wishes!  Mark Bonke

[pandamonium]

Can NGC give their opinion?  At this point, NGC says the pagodas are all real.  If so we have another variety.  So what is it?  Silver plate or a new variety??..........

[Underbidder]

1)  NGC appears to have already deemed them "real", if by real you mean "genuine mint produced".   They have not deemed them solid .90. They might be confused and have mis characterized some or many.  If Poconopenn's info is right, NGC might not be able to determine plating by their test.

More definitive tests and info are needed.

[poconopenn]

The thickness of the plate is the key. If the silver plating is thicker than 0.8mm, the test result will suggest that the coin is made with pure silver. However, if the thickness is less than 0.4 mm, the result will definitely be less than 80% of silver. There is no way the silver can be uniformly plated on the coin, NGC defintely can test diffferent spots. If the results are not matched at different spots, the coin is definitely plated. The question is if NGC staff is smart enough to select the spots which may have a thinner plating.

[dragonfan]

You bring very much. Always instructive! Thank you poconopenn

[fishball]

So all this Goldfish and Pagoda discussion has me wondering... are my 1990 NGC graded PF69 goldfishies real? How to tell?

[Panda Express]

Another interesting perspective surrounding the controversial 1984 Silver/Silver plated Ancient Pagoda Set that makes everybody wonder about its true rarity are the high number of graded sets by NGC.  Take for instance if we compare the percentage numbers with similar rare silver MCC like the 1984 1 oz Hong Kong Show Panda and the 1980 Silver Piefort Proof Olympic Set with low mintage numbers of 1000 and 500 respectively.  The percentage of raw to graded is as follows:

1984 Ancient Pagoda Set  roughly 56 graded sets by NGC             22%
1984 1 oz Silver Hong Kong Show medal 59 graded by NGC             6%
1980 Silver Piefort Proof Olympic Set roughly 20 graded sets            6%

As you can see that there is a sizable discrepancy in percentages among the coins compared.  The total mintage for the 1984 Ancient Pagoda Sets are 260.  This leads me to the possible conclusion that there may be more Pagoda sets out there. That's just my 2 cents worth IMHO.

[Underbidder]

So all this Goldfish and Pagoda discussion has me wondering... are my 1990 NGC graded PF69 goldfishies real? How to tell?

Are they "real" ?  My guess is almost surely.  There has really never been much doubt that the 1990 two fish coin is not only a real mint product, but it really has not even been questioned on whether or not its anything but solid .90 silver, based on a lot of small supporting details.

Its the 1984 coins, especially the one fish Goldfish, which we have strong suggestion at least some are plated, and by implication now perhaps SOME Pagodas.