Author Topic: WOW of the day  (Read 693322 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2690
  • Karma: 229
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 12:47:57 PM »
If the item was paid, it would state as "purchased on..." as other five items won and paid by t***n.

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2011, 01:29:44 PM »
Poconopenn, that is great sleuthing. It really shows something is going on.

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2011, 02:47:51 PM »
 Very suspicious
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 03:01:29 PM by Underbidder »

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2011, 03:17:49 PM »
Ok, what is going on? Did this auctions records get changed? How can the "seller" leave feedback (false) for t***n?  Does this now block mcc168's chance to leave negative feedback of a shill bid and fraud? It's time this gets stopped guys, and all guilty parties banned.  I can't believe eBay has allowed this to go on, with the posting of this false feedback just yesterday. I would have thought they would have terminated the account of t***n by now, someone reported them, right? And now of course this seller is suspect.  Unless a lot of accounts are hijacked, and false transactions and fraud is rampant.

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2011, 05:57:55 PM »
Ok, what is going on? Did this auctions records get changed? How can the "seller" leave feedback (false) for t***n?

What item number?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2011, 06:21:13 PM »
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2759.msg11502;topicseen#msg11502

Please read poconopenn's post again.  The same two bidders who shilled mcc168 (t***n and r***g) are the same ones who have been running up these other auctions to outrageous levels. Like the 1991 BU Panda to $9800 and the 1992 to $2850.  There's no was that's a "variety" suddenly worth that much. Not with those two scamming bidders! Maybe if it was you or KJ or Badon or Larry or someone else knowledgable on this board etc bidding, but these criminal clowns?
Com'on, wake up, smell the coffee, this is all dirty.

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2011, 06:40:17 PM »
No, I don't think the variety (if it even is one) is worth much or anything extra over any other 1991. The last bid that looks legit to me is at $2,800 by t***t; everything subsequent to that reminds me of Fantasyland. The remarkable part of this is that there still isn't any visible connection to the seller in this saga. Which reminds me, the federal prosecutor I spoke to said that it would be necessary to show that the shill has a financial interest in running up prices to get a conviction. That could be that he owns similar coins whose value he is trying to manipulate (which is where the wire fraud statutes come in), or being paid by the seller for his shill bid, but there needs to be some financial connection to make this a crime. That might be difficult to prove which is why he recommended taking civil action against the bad bidders. As he spent 20+ years putting away everyone from low-level drug dealers to the guys at the top I tend to accept his views on criminal laws.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2011, 06:46:14 PM »
I'm not gonna say he's wrong, but that's wrong. Say someone mugs you and throws the wallet to someone in a speeding car. Then he shrugs and laughs and says he can't be prosecuted since you can't show he was enriched.  Sorry, not true. You are having a mental block on what constitutes a crime, it is NOT always defined by provable monetary gain.  If done for reasons of love, for hate, for attention, whatever, it is still a crime.
Remember, you are saying HE said " Get a conviction.". That is the rub, any court, any day, makes different decisions on whether to convict, on the same evidence.  But same thing with all crimes.  So yes, on some days in some courts that mugger will be convicted. Remember when I said a prosecutor would reply by splitting hairs since he is an attorney? Well there you go.  LOL!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 06:55:08 PM by Underbidder »

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 06:57:08 PM »
OK, just for the hypothetical fun of it I'll bite one more time. If someone assaults you and takes your wallet he will charged with theft, assault, battery and who knows how many other things. Just taking your wallet, or any other property, from you is a crime. It makes little difference that he no longer possesses it – physically threatening you and taking your property is a crime. This issue with the fake bids is a much less clear cut situation. I think you need a different example or analogy.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 06:59:40 PM »
And by the way, you are ignoring obvious implications in some of these cases, by apparently wanting so badly to believe there are no sellers involved.
How do you explain away the fact that the seller gave this shill t***n positive feedback, to an item that he shilled mcc168 on, and hey I thought mcc168 won, hmmm?
There is weird chit going on here, there are other possibilities  but I don't want to go down those roads yet.

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 07:01:45 PM »
That's right, just TAKING someone's property, or defrauding them, is a crime.  Shill bidding is a crime.  It is easier to PROVE if they can show enrichment, but not necessary.  Do some Google searches on the subject, you'll be glad you did.
Poconopenn is all over this... He is pointing it out.  Read his posts again if you still cant see it.

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2011, 07:09:36 PM »
Have you asked the seller why he left that feedback for t**n for this item? If you haven't I will be happy to go ahead and contact him. I want to see all the information possible before making my mind up.

And please define "shill bidding," so I can be sure we are talking about the same thing. To me a fake, or dishonest bid, is not necessarily a shill bid although it certainly can be. According to Wikipedia , "A shill or plant is a person who helps another person or organization to sell goods or services without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with the seller." So what is missing here is the relationship to the seller. We need to close the circle to understand what is going on.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
Did you go further in looking up a definition, or stop at one that satisfied your point? (which seems to be, there is no proven relationship to the sellers, nothing wrong, nothing fishy, move along, nothing to see, people)

Why not go to the first listing on Google, from eBay itself ( I think their's is a good definition, we can agree on that, yes?):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

Shill bidding happens when anyone bids on an item in order to artificially increase its price or desirability. Shill bidding also happens when someone a seller knows bids on the seller's item. This includes family members, friends (including online friends), roommates, or employees.

We don't allow shill bidding on eBay because people the seller knows might have information about the item that other members don't, which might give them an unfair advantage.

If people you know want to buy your item, they should do so in a way that doesn't involve bidding. For example, you can sell the item at a fixed price or offer Buy It Now, and they can buy the item that way. However, these purchases can't be made for the purpose of artificially increasing a seller's Feedback or improving search standing.  

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you don’t, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 07:40:22 PM by Underbidder »

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2594
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2011, 07:44:20 PM »
Actually, I was satisfied with the Wikipedia definition but since eBay has a broader one than eBay has an obligation to enforce it. What concerns me is that you called the actions of various people criminal. While eBay can define shill bidding any way it likes and enforce that definition on its members, a criminal act is defined by law and in that respect I believe the narrower definition I quoted is the relevant one. I also believe that is why the prosecutor recommended that the remedy for such actions would be found in civil, not criminal, court.

In the meantime I have emailed the seller of the palladium coin and asked him some questions. His answers, assuming he does answer, may get us closer to the truth of this matter.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Underbidder

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2011, 07:50:18 PM »
I called it criminal because it is criminal. Its covered under the Fraud Act of 2006. Like I said. You really need to Google it and not stop at the first few citings that support your position, to be accurate on this.

And the feedback from mikew-actions was positive feedback, @#$%^&*! :(

Doesn't make sense, positive feedback, with a curse and a sad face.  As if to say "Good, trust this buyer/ Cr*p, Bad!"

Does this make sense to you?  Of course not