Author Topic: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??  (Read 140688 times)

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Offline Grip

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2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« on: February 16, 2011, 09:31:49 AM »
Not many of the 2001"D" Pandas (gold or silver) show up at auction on Ebay. A silver 01"D" went out at 92.00 a few days ago. 

Offline canadian

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2011, 10:58:57 AM »
My understanding of the 01"D" is that it was produced for the domestic Chinese market. Mintage numbers I believe are about the same as the regular 01". Many of them have found their way to  North America. Personaly I think the D" is not as nice looking as the regular "01, the D" detracts from the otherwise beautiful design.

Offline Grip

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 05:20:48 PM »
Yes, the 01 "D" was for domestic distribution only, so I have to guess that most of the population is in China. Wonder who has them.  Xu Hong never had many of them and always said they were "rare". Over the two years I was buying from him, he only had one 2000 1 oz gold Mirror panda and had it listed for 1850.00 (last year). He also said this was a rare coin. Turns out he was right. I noticed that one of the dealers (AU3000) has a set of 01 "D" gold pandas graded MS69 asking 14,000.00 stating "it's a tough set to acquire"....       

Offline canadian

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 09:47:32 PM »
I have some silver 01 "D's" I often thought that given the opportunity I might trade them for non "D's" because I like the looks of them more. It seems that when American dealers have them, they only charge a small premium over the regular issue. Maybe they have been under valued?

Offline Grip

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 10:13:40 AM »
Only time will tell. The Chinese were not allowed to own gold or silver until 2005. I'm guessing that most of the population of coins minted for Domestic distribution have remained in China and are now owned by people who will likely not sell them for quite some time-if at all. Also, shipping coins (especially domestic production) out of country is illegal without meeting government regulations. Maybe that set of gold 01"D"s au3000 is selling will turn out to be a good deal...

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 11:41:15 PM »
Does anyone have the skinny on the "small D" variety?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html


Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 12:12:30 AM »
With a "small D", it's fair there is a "large D"?  What is the difference?  Got comparsion pictures?

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 01:23:08 AM »
This just came up on another forum I participate on.

I've heard over and over that the 2001D is a sleeper. I haven't been watching prices recently, but when I was, the D variety was commanding a premium. Gold & Silver Panda Buyer's Guide has BU estimate for D variety at <33,000 compared to <155,000 for regular version.

For those collectors out there that need every variety, I think the hunt for Big D and Little D will push prices higher as the more rare variety reveals itself. There is a noticeable difference in size.

I don't have a photo to post, but there is one here: http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?197-Another-variety-amp-*-2001-SMALL-D-MAKING-ME-CRAZY!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 01:35:33 AM »
This is a new variety just showed up in this week's census.  The census I collected on 2001D last weekend does not have the "large D" and "small D" line items, but today there are two more lines showing 26 "large D" and 8 "small D". 

I went through several hundreds S10Y 2001D this evening, and I have yet to find a "small D", so I think it is quite rare.

I blow up the picture above and overlayed with a normal 2001D (large D).  The difference is very distinct.  Click on the picture to display the animated GIF.  Each variety will display for 2 seconds.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 02:41:44 AM »
Intriguing, but there are so many differences between the two in addition to just the size of the date
(  the "1" in 10 , the bamboo branches, the 999s, the mirror stripe behind the shoulder, etc)
and I am wondering if we aren't in fact seeing some new fakes perhaps getting past the graders?

I have seen some very questionable new "varieties" of silver pandas lately which have been graded by NGC, and I have shared them with top experts who have found them to be questionable at best, and at worst a new high level of fakes.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 03:22:29 AM »
Intriguing, but there are so many differences between the two in addition to just the size of the date
(  the "1" in 10 , the bamboo branches, the 999s, the mirror stripe behind the shoulder, etc)
and I am wondering if we aren't in fact seeing some new fakes perhaps getting past the graders?

I have seen some very questionable new "varieties" of silver pandas lately which have been graded by NGC, and I have shared them with top experts who have found them to be questionable at best, and at worst a new high level of fakes.

I concurred.  I'm surprised with so much discussion about fakes, yet no one mentioned the possibility that "small D" could be a fake.  The image of small-D wasn't very clear but it seems to be lacking sharp details as in the genuine "large-D".

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 03:30:41 AM »
This is a new variety just showed up in this week's census.  The census I collected on 2001D last weekend does not have the "large D" and "small D" line items, but today there are two more lines showing 26 "large D" and 8 "small D". 

I went through several hundreds S10Y 2001D this evening, and I have yet to find a "small D", so I think it is quite rare.

I blow up the picture above and overlayed with a normal 2001D (large D).  The difference is very distinct.  Click on the picture to display the animated GIF.  Each variety will display for 2 seconds.

"census"? Mind I ask you which census were you referring to?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 08:05:25 AM »
Peter is probably right at 33,000 mintage for the 2001 D.  Mr Ge says 250,000 mintage.  The 2000 and newer silver pandas have high mintage compared to 1980's and 90's silver pandas.  I still think there is a possiblity of undiscovered varieties w/ the older lower mintage silver pandas.  2001 D is a good panda to own but the older maybe a better bet.................

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 10:11:44 AM »
"census"? Mind I ask you which census were you referring to?
I should be more clear.  "census" is a NGC term for their "coin population report" which is updated weekly on Monday.  Due to the growing interests in variety and the resulting discoveries, the number of entries in a coin population report is increasing steadily of late.  The 2001D is likely to follow the pattern of previous discoveries where the original entry stayed the same or declining slowly due to resubmission, but the new entries (large "D" and small "D") will grow weekly.  The ratio of the large "D" to small "D" is an approximation of the relative scarcity.  I'm interested in this one because it is another case study in "rarity distortion".

My survey of the 2001D is done, out of the 886 2001D S10Y NGC photo examined, I can not find a single case of small "D".  In my opinion, there is some possibility of the small "D" being a fake, but I'm more inclined to think a collector has recognized the variety early on and accumulated a significant sample of them secretly and then submit them in one lot to NGC with sufficient sample size to establish their authenticity.  Time will tell, I shall monitor the 2001D population with considerable interest, there are a couple theories I want to check out.

In the mean time, I sure like to have a better picture of the small D.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 11:01:36 AM »
SANDAC,

Please post picture of so call "small date" 2001D or NGC cert. #. Thanks.

NGC had graded low quality fake 1987 Mazu gold coin as genuine recently. This can be another instant.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 11:07:10 AM by poconopenn »

Offline snowball

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 11:13:42 AM »
NGC Census shows that 8 small dates are encapsulated so far.
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Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 11:36:26 AM »
The Certification numbers might provide a possible clue.  If all 8 were submitted togther, for example, it would mean one submitter somehow managed to submit a different type of coin, out of the blue, after years of others submitting many.  Although by itself it would only raise eyebrows, that would seem to increase the likelihood that they are fakes.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 11:43:58 AM »
Please post picture of so call "small date" 2001D or NGC cert. #. Thanks.
All I have is a rather poor picture from the previous post:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43096#msg43096

I blow up the picture and line up with a normal 2001D and shown them as animated GIF here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43105#msg43105

I'll also display them side-by-side in this message.

I'm actively searching the database, but no luck so far.  

Offline Obsidian

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 04:10:16 PM »
Lighting on the small D picture in the comparison photos is so poor it is impossible to tell whether there are true differences in my opinion.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 05:38:08 PM »
Attached are pictures of regular 2001 D taken from two different directions as well as enlarged picture of NGC small date picture posted by NBM. The NGC picture is not in good quality and cannot see the 3 dimensional details. Three bumps as marked are troublesome. We definitely need a better picture of this NGC small date to make sure these bumps are real or just optical illusion.

10 Yuan in NGC small date coin does not look right.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 05:40:28 PM by poconopenn »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 05:44:19 PM »
silverstar1 of silverstackers says he submitted all 8 2001D small D at the same time, and he will have one on eBay this weekend.  So hopefully we'll have a certification number and/or better picture soon.

I seldom visited silverstackers, silverstar1 has 17 positive trades out of 17 and 826 posts.  He appears to be a solid source.  If the coin is real, I believe it is extremely rare.  I'm interested to see what price it will fetch.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 05:58:01 PM »
silverstar1 of silverstackers says he submitted all 8 2001D small D at the same time, and he will have one on eBay this weekend.  So hopefully we'll have a certification number and/or better picture soon.

I seldom visited silverstackers, silverstar1 has 17 positive trades out of 17 and 826 posts.  He appears to be a solid source.  If the coin is real, I believe it is extremely rare.  I'm interested to see what price it will fetch.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html

This is exactly hipanda's assertion - that the batch of "small D" was submitted by one submitter and got past NGC.  I am not suggesting that silverstar1 was guilty of anything, but it's possible that he purchased this batch of coins somewhere else not knowing they could be fakes - because they look genuine. Let's withhold our judgement until we get a hold of a better "small-D" picture. We have established proof that NGC can be fallible.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:00:02 PM by dynamike51 »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2012, 06:37:08 PM »
The reasons I give less credit to the theory of these coins fooled the NGC graders are three folds:
1.  Sufficient sample size (8) were submitted so all 8 have to pass the test.
2.  Small D is not a recognized variety until these 8 coins showed up, so the submitter (silverstar1) must have recognized it as a possible variety and worked with NGC to have the variety recognized.  This review process takes time and greater involvment from NGC.
3.  NGC did recognize it and made a conscious decision to assign new 2001D as either large D or small D.  The large D now has a new barcode that's different than the original 2001D.  The original 2001D barcode has a prefix of 408380, the large D barcode has a prefix of 654236.  NGC is certainly not infallible, but such structural change takes team effort and greater peer review.

Time will tell, if the 2001D small D fetched a large sum of money, then more small D may be discovered and submitted and then we'll have a larger population to determine authenticity.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2012, 06:43:49 PM »
So far, we have one fuzzy photo with the cert# covered (from which no one can be certain of the coin's authenticity), and NO NGC certification number to verify any validity of this so-called "small-D". And one person from silverstackers claims to have submitted all 8 coins (according to SANDAC).  Is that enough to ascertain this "new variety"?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:54:20 PM by dynamike51 »

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2012, 06:49:56 PM »

......, so the submitter (silverstar1) must have recognized it as a possible variety and worked with NGC to have the variety recognized.   


This is silverstar1's statement on silverstackers:

"Anyone have any thoughts here on the 2001d silver pandas as far as the small d versus the large d variety , like which is the more common variety ? I just noticed these and it must be a newer designation."

Does that sound like a person who is certain he just discovered a "new variety", and worked with NGC to have it recognized?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 06:56:39 PM by dynamike51 »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 07:04:14 PM »
NGC census, or coin population report on 2001D:

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »
NGC census, or coin population report on 2001D:

a) Get a cert# so we can examine the photo.
b) Again, NGC can be fallible (it's been proven) - especially if all 8 of those coins were submitted by ONE submitter.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2012, 08:26:38 PM »
calm down boys NOT FAKES ,i just graded a whole sheet of them right before the new designation :) and have 1 more intact sheet, here is a couple of cert,s  2780533-022   2780533-023

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 08:30:58 PM »
Ah, finally some certification number:
2780533-021 to -030.  A sheet of 10, I assume, all except one are graded 69.  Thank you, jc88888888.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2012, 08:33:03 PM »
calm down boys NOT FAKES ,i just graded a whole sheet of them right before the new designation :) and have 1 more intact sheet, here is a couple of cert,s  2780533-022   2780533-023
Very cool, can you take a picture of the whole sheet?  I believe there are experts here (not I) who can recognize the mint by the pattern of sheet seal.

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 08:44:19 PM »
Very cool, can you take a picture of the whole sheet?  I believe there are experts here (not I) who can recognize the mint by the pattern of sheet seal.
yep i graded a whole sheet sandac is spot on 9 ms69 and 1 ms68        the other sheet is in the safe box, i go get it and post some pics in a few days............ i believe it is shenzhen 

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 08:51:04 PM »
This is quite interesting.  You may have read my previous comment where I've searched my known NGC database of 886 2001D and come up with zero "small D". 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43127#msg43127
Clearly my database is not all inclusive, but it does indicate rarity.  I believe the small D is quite rare.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 08:55:52 PM »
Joeman-
We all hope these turn out as advertised, a new variety.

But some of us have seen some questionable coins lately, and they have all been very recently, which passed NGC but are obvious fakes, or such good fakes as to still be questionable until one is sawed in half.

Or they are newly discovered varieties, with lumps indicative of inexplicably poor mint quality.

Other questionable or known fakes have been passed all at once by one submitter.
There was also a Taiwan connection, can you lay
to rest that question in the case of your coins?

In any event, the pattern is strong enough to question and scrutinize.
No worries, if real they will pass further scrutiny with flying colors and what a joy that will be.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 09:02:49 PM »
This is quite interesting.  You may have read my previous comment where I've searched my known NGC database of 886 2001D and come up with zero "small D". 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43127#msg43127
Clearly my database is not all inclusive, but it does indicate rarity.  I believe the small D is quite rare.

In my mind, rarity alone does Not establish authenticity. One strike going against any potential newly discovered variety is just that: why can't we find even a single other older graded one? Even from many years back? One that is only noticed now in hindsight.  That seems odd. It defies probability.  But does not necessarily prove or disprove authenticity. 
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline gerald

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 09:28:39 PM »
SANDAC,

Please post picture of so call "small date" 2001D or NGC cert. #. Thanks.

From SS: 3689048-002

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2012, 09:37:03 PM »
Seeing the original mint wrap and seal will be very illuminating This is one shining example of the value of OMP.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2012, 09:38:39 PM »
Joeman-
We all hope these turn out as advertised, a new variety.

But some of us have seen some questionable coins lately, and they have all been very recently, which passed NGC but are obvious fakes, or such good fakes as to still be questionable until one is sawed in half.

Or they are newly discovered varieties, with lumps indicative of inexplicably poor mint quality.

Other questionable or known fakes have been passed all at once by one submitter.
There was also a Taiwan connection, can you lay
to rest that question in the case of your coins?

In any event, the pattern is strong enough to question and scrutinize.
No worries, if real they will pass further scrutiny with flying colors and what a joy that will be.

hipanda  , I appreciate your concerns:) I have an extreme degree of confidence ...........  you need to cut one open:) no problem 2500 you need graded or ungraded ???:) just kidding:) ............ I have been collecting MCC for quite a while ,if it makes you feel any better Those 2 sheets have been locked up in a vault since 2003 when a close friend of mine bought them in Peking,  i have graded 1000,s of coins so I have a fair eye they are legitimate ,here  is the funny part .I sold 5  4 69,s and 1 68 at auction on silver stackers for less than 150 each ,no worries some good customers got a good deal ,so im happy.........................

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 09:41:43 PM »
Hello everyone , I just registered here , I have looked at the forum several times and find it quite interesting, I have been a member of silverstackers and it is the only forum I have joined, kind of by chance just like here. Anyway I felt like I had to chime in here on this 2001 sm d panda and put to rest any controversy. It looks like Gerald has posted the cert. # I put on ss so I hope this helps friends here with the research. I can assure you all that these are genuine  and if not then I would have to say none of the certified or other pandas I have ever seen are . It is very interesting to get everyones views on this here which is why I posted the thread on SS in the first place , I will look forward to see what comes of this new variety and yes I will be listing one of these (which I had planned before reading all of this) along with some other harder to find pandas this weekend , hopefully I will be getting some bidders from here as well. Now I am a member here so please let me  know if anyone has any more questions concerning this. Thanks
Silverstar1

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2012, 09:46:33 PM »
Seeing the original mint wrap and seal will be very illuminating This is one shining example of the value of OMP.
I do still have the OMP I always keep and mark those just in case I ever need a comparison it is typical Shenzhen Guobao , I could post a picture on SS if you would like as I am more familiar with uploading photos there.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2012, 09:50:57 PM »
I do still have the OMP I always keep and mark those just in case I ever need a comparison it is typical Shenzhen Guobao , I could post a picture on SS if you would like as I am more familiar with uploading photos there.
   Hey brother silverstar:) yep I remember the sheet I just graded was Shenzhen Guobao,, pm me when you get back to stacker,s

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2012, 10:32:15 PM »
silverstar1,

Welcome to the Chinese Coin Forum!

Thank you and joeman for providing the background information on the 2001D, small D.  Could you tell me about your interaction with NGC with respect to establishing this new variety?  Did NGC requested additional documents and materials and did it take a long time?

I'm looking forward to see the result of your eBay auction.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2012, 10:50:01 PM »
silverstar1,

Welcome to the Chinese Coin Forum!

Thank you and joeman for providing the background information on the 2001D, small D.  Could you tell me about your interaction with NGC with respect to establishing this new variety?  Did NGC requested additional documents and materials and did it take a long time?

I'm looking forward to see the result of your eBay auction.
Hi SANDAC , thankyou for your kind welcome and I appreciate your post regarding my credibility. While I would love to tell you that it was a long back and fourth interaction with NGC and I have been studying these varieties for years, truth be told I just sent these in to NCS/NGC along with several other batches and was a little surprised when they had the sm dt designation, so I decided to inquire on SS about this which I received no replies except for Catseye with a link to the CCF on this subject which leads me here . I am exited to see what comes of this variety in the future ,I can say I have several 2001 d pandas and after checking none of the others are this sm variety. I also look foreword to spending more time on the CCF as this has really been where my coins interest has is.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2012, 11:10:01 PM »
thanks sandac!!!!

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2012, 11:19:30 PM »
..if it makes you feel any better Those 2 sheets have been locked up in a vault since 2003 when a close friend of mine bought them in Peking..

That is about the strongest type of evidence possible..
Congrats-
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline snowball

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2012, 11:36:27 PM »
Everyone! Time to check your 01 D pandas!   :001_cool:


silverstar1, welcome!!
Happy Collecting!  快乐收藏!

Colin
CE Collection Inc.
China Mint | Online Store

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2012, 11:37:22 PM »
Silverstar1

Welcome to the forum.

Please post a high resolution picture of your NGC small date coin here. The pictures at NGC site is not clear and can not see 3 dimensional details. The D is not just only small, but also about 2mm higher than the large date.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2012, 12:20:24 AM »
Hey Thanks! I do not take very good pictures ,sorry. Yep the biggest difference seems to be the date very distinctive, The sm d measures appx 2.4 mm High and the LG appx 3mm, and looking for the distinction , looking at where the bamboo on the left side meets the D is very different easily seen. Some other subtle differences for sure ,very nicely struck coins.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2012, 01:33:16 PM »
I think it is worthwhile for you to locate a good digital camera with macro zoom and post a few detailed pictures.  poconopenn has one of the best eyes around and he can pick out details that none of us can.  It would be an tremendous education for you and us.  You are already protected by NGC's guarantee from loss,  more details, discussion and confirmation can only sent value of this coin higher.  Detailed photo give you lots of upside and no downside.  I know if poconopenn took an interest in whatever I have, I would spare no efforts to satisfy him.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2012, 02:47:38 PM »
Thanks SANDAC , I have a friend with a better camera I will see what I can do. I am not sure how to upload a photo here but I could post it on SS , I will have to see when my friend could help.  I am not sure why I would need Guarantee from loss protection ? Is Poconopenn someone that really knows alot about these?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2012, 03:14:18 PM »
To upload one or more pictures:  click "Preview" (next to "Post"), below the text box in preview is a link to "Additional Options..." which will open up a box for "Attach:".  Enter your filename of picture there.  If you need to upload more, click "(more attachments)" to the right of box.  

poconopenn is an real expert in fake detection.  You can learn a lot by reading his previous posts (over 1000) on this forum.  I mentioned NGC guarantee only because if the coin turned out as a fake during the course of the discussion, you can get your money back from NGC so you are covered on the downside.

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2012, 03:39:08 PM »

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2012, 03:43:38 PM »
Yep this picture here looks like the SM dt to me.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2012, 03:44:59 PM »

Is Poconopenn someone that really knows alot about these?



LOL ....  :lol:  Silverstar1, given that you are new here, you're forgiven.   Spend more time here, and you will learn who is the "guru".   N30

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2012, 04:08:22 PM »
Thank you for the picture NBM.  May I ask you to tell us about the pedigree of this coin?  I'm still puzzled over why I can't find a single small D out of the 886 random NGC photos.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2012, 04:22:50 PM »
The discoverers of this Small Date coin should not be upset that members on CCF want to carefully scrutinize newly discovered varieties, since fakes have recently been found that have passed through NGC successfully. It has been a recent topic of some interest here. Nothing personal.

If you have had them in your possession since 2003 that is one huge support
for their authenticity, as I wrote. But it is not 100% conclusive, yet, on its own.
Better photos are still helpful, and even then I have seen likely fakes that are still questionable with great photos and even in person under loops. The sad fact is counterfeit silver Pandas are famous, and the makers are using better technology every year and are now so close to the originals we may  be very near the time they pass more often than not.
Poconopenn is likely the best judge IMO, and there are specific clues he looks for. Soon counterfeiters will eliminate even those signature flaws.
The latest photo shows at least three areas of significant difference.
Plus I'd like to see a better photo of the whole Mint wrap, there is an area of interest there too.

It may very well be that these coins where made differently from the Large Date in many ways.
If so there may be a very interesting story behind this and these coins quite valuable. If we are anything, we are optimistic but reserved and curious. Your original post asked us for our opinions, and that is what is developing.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2012, 04:23:43 PM »
Thank you for the picture NBM.  May I ask you to tell us about the pedigree of this coin?  I'm still puzzled over why I can't find a single small D out of the 886 random NGC photos.
I will PM you. ;-)

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2012, 05:04:30 PM »
The discoverers of this Small Date coin should not be upset that members on CCF want to carefully scrutinize newly discovered varieties, since fakes have recently been found that have passed through NGC successfully. It has been a recent topic of some interest here. Nothing personal.

If you have had them in your possession since 2003 that is one huge support
for their authenticity, as I wrote. But it is not 100% conclusive, yet, on its own.
Better photos are still helpful, and even then I have seen likely fakes that are still questionable with great photos and even in person under loops. The sad fact is counterfeit silver Pandas are famous, and the makers are using better technology every year and are now so close to the originals we may  be very near the time they pass more often than not.
Poconopenn is likely the best judge IMO, and there are specific clues he looks for. Soon counterfeiters will eliminate even those signature flaws.
The latest photo shows at least three areas of significant difference.
Plus I'd like to see a better photo of the whole Mint wrap, there is an area of interest there too.

It may very well be that these coins where made differently from the Large Date in many ways.
If so there may be a very interesting story behind this and these coins quite valuable. If we are anything, we are optimistic but reserved and curious. Your original post asked us for our opinions, and that is what is developing.

HI , Hipanda, if this is directed at me , I am not upset at all or taking it personal , I really appreciate all the info and input here , After looking at these over and over again and with loops and comparing to the regular d, and the 2001 and 2002 , I am still not seeing anything that would lead me to believe they are fake or non silver everything seems correct from the omp, mint slip , slight typical tarnish on the outer edge( exactly the same as others of this year) I would love to get some of the expert opinions here , but I also have some experience myself. This is alot more interesting than what I first thought.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2012, 05:05:49 PM »
I will PM you. ;-)
Yes Thanks for the picture , would you care to share any info with the forum?

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2012, 05:12:17 PM »
HI , Hipanda, if this is directed at me , I am not upset at all or taking it personal , I really appreciate all the info and input here , After looking at these over and over again and with loops and comparing to the regular d, and the 2001 and 2002 , I am still not seeing anything that would lead me to believe they are fake or non silver everything seems correct from the omp, mint slip , slight typical tarnish on the outer edge( exactly the same as others of this year) I would love to get some of the expert opinions here , but I also have some experience myself. This is alot more interesting than what I first thought.

Silverstar1:

Same here. I hope you didn't take whatever I said as a personal attack - it wasn't meant to be that. I am just skeptical by nature.  :crying: If a so-called "new variety" pops up out of nowhere, I instinctively question its authenticity.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2012, 05:18:22 PM »
Silverstar1:

Same here. I hope you didn't take whatever I said as a personal attack - it wasn't meant to be that. I am just skeptical by nature.  :crying: If a so-called "new variety" pops up out of nowhere, I instinctively question its authenticity.
Oh Yes I totally understand it is only a smart thing to do.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2012, 06:03:05 PM »
Here are a couple more pictures I took since I do not know when I will be able to get better ones. one in OMP and one upclose of the graded one, note the reddish look is only from the lighting as the graded coin was NSC conserved and the omp has only some very slight toning near the edge. Still not very good pictures but I hope it helps.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2012, 09:51:41 PM »
exact same OMP as my sheet..

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2012, 10:16:45 PM »
Ok, I'm confused but maybe I just missed something...
Why WOULDN'T it be the same?  
Joe, it was from you, right? Weren't you the source for all these?

Bought in Beijing?

Kept in your safe together since?

Just trying to get things straight. Correct anything thats wrong please...

Edit:
No I see I may have assumed the above, actually you wrote:

"Those 2 sheets have been locked up in a vault since 2003 when a close friend of mine bought them in Peking"

Was it your vault they have been locked up since 2003?  Have you personally had custody of these since 2003?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:23:17 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2012, 10:32:53 PM »
Joeman,

Up to now, all pictures posted have too much reflections and they are not show  clear 3 dimenional details. Since your are long time dealer, you ought to be able to post a better picture. Please post pictures of both sides with a clear details of the device. Thanks.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2012, 10:38:04 PM »
exact same OMP as my sheet..

Joeman,

As we have been saying, "don't take this personal". We are just trying to verify its authenticity. Don't you want the same?  I guarantee you that you will not find a better "authenticator" than poconopenn - anywhere !!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2012, 10:43:50 PM »
By my count there are 30, possibly 31 small D being discussed in this thread:
*  joeman has 2 sheets, one sheet is still intact, and the other sheet is graded by NGC and is 2780533-021 to -030
*  silverstar1 has 8 graded by NGC, 3689048-001 to -008.  He has at least one more in OMP which he took a picture of and posted it early this evening.  I saw the edge of another capsule, so maybe silverstar1 has 2 still in OMP.

*  NBM has one in OMP

joeman just confirmed that his OMP matches silverstar1's.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2012, 11:12:05 PM »
OK, I re-read the postings and see where there is apparently more than one source for the coins shown. Source is a valid question for these newly announced arrivals, it helps fill in the inevitable questions.

Joeman had two sheets, from Beijing, and they have reportedly been in a vault, (not sure who's ? ) since then?

And then there is Silverstar's, and it would be nice to know the source, timing, and custody of his too, if you can be so nice.  Where did your coins come from, and when?

There is so much mystery surrounding the 2001-D Silver and Gold, it would be very helpful to all collectors and members of all forums to have as many questions answered and information filled in as possible. After all, its missing history, in a time of great change in both China and numismatics.

Please help fill in the missing info, its much appreciated.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2012, 11:20:34 PM »
Joeman,

Up to now, all pictures posted have too much reflections and they are not show  clear 3 dimenional details. Since your are long time dealer, you ought to be able to post a better picture. Please post pictures of both sides with a clear details of the device. Thanks.
No dealer my  friend:) just a collector who sells a few coins to help subsidize a very expensive habit. OH and by the way  that coin selling and grading hobbie many times does not do much to subsidize anything :), the omp sheet is in the bank vault ,but sheet #1 I have a few graded coins around and the opened up mint sheet from the first 10 graded , more than happy over the weekend to pop off some pics and post regards

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2012, 11:28:35 PM »
By my count there are 30, possibly 31 small D being discussed in this thread:
*  joeman has 2 sheets, one sheet is still intact, and the other sheet is graded by NGC and is 2780533-021 to -030
*  silverstar1 has 8 graded by NGC, 3689048-001 to -008.  He has at least one more in OMP which he took a picture of and posted it early this evening.  I saw the edge of another capsule, so maybe silverstar1 has 2 still in OMP.

*  NBM has one in OMP

joeman just confirmed that his OMP matches silverstar1's.

SANDAC:

You constantly mentioned that you dived into your database, looking for the tiniest of details and variations from different coins. So, I assume you are somewhat of a data-miner. Don't you find it odd that 2001-D, with 33,000 mintage, not a single "small-D" has been graded by NGC - notice even joeman's batch (2780533-021 to -030) did not have the "small-D" designation by NGC. Yes, they are of the same variety, but apparently NGC didn't come up with the "small-D" idea until recently. (I'm guessing silverstar1's batch is quite recent with that cert#)  Even by your own admission that you looked over 800 photos in "your database" but didn't find one "small-D", no?  If this is truly one "new variety" from some unknown Mint of China, it would benefit silverstar1, joeman, NBM or whoever owns these to validate its authenticity, don't you think? But according to joeman, his batch and one sheet, maybe even silverstars' batch came from him originally (?), and these have been "locked up in a vault". So, some China Mint just minted those 30+ coins? On the other hand, if a large quantity of this "small-D" variety was minted, where are the rest of them?

Inquisitive mind wants to know.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:37:01 PM by dynamike51 »

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 11:37:22 PM »
Ok, I'm confused but maybe I just missed something...
Why WOULDN'T it be the same?  
Joe, it was from you, right? Weren't you the source for all these?

Bought in Beijing?

Kept in your safe together since?

Just trying to get things straight. Correct anything thats wrong please...

Edit:
No I see I may have assumed the above, actually you wrote:

"Those 2 sheets have been locked up in a vault since 2003 when a close friend of mine bought them in Peking"

Was it your vault they have been locked up since 2003?  Have you personally had custody of these since 2003?
you are a very curious fellow:)    I will just say I know for a fact:) where those 2 sheets where bought from in 2003 and where they have been since 2003, and also where they have been since I acquired them ...... trust me when I tell you I take no offense ,we probably are going to get ncs/ngc a chance to re verify authenticity:) on some as I want them labelled correctly,

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 11:40:55 PM »
OK here is one more photo I had a friend take probably not much better, sorry but this is the best I can do feel free to delete these if they are just wasting bandwidth. And just to clear any confusion I did NOT get these from Joeman mine are from a different source fairly recently, and I do not know about NBMs source. There is also another side by side comparison on SS from another member I believe did get it from Joeman .And yes I still have 2 in OMP. So while I do think this is a very scarce variety there is other examples out there and in my opinion this is 100% legitimate and genuine variety. I have been in the jewelry and PM  business for over 20 years and coins for over 8 years , I have seen all kinds of plated metals and this is definatly not a plated silver coin . To me it would be extremely unlikely that a counterfeiter would produce such a high quality coin out of real silver on a 2001d (which is not a really rare or valuable coin in the first place) in Shenzhen omp with mintslip, just to sell a few 100 or however many exist most probably still in China, and then to have them fool the highly experienced graders at NCS and NGC in several instances. I do understand why people here, very experienced and long time experts in the field of MCC would be skeptical and want some solid proof but at some point we just have to accept the facts. I will be listing one of these on ebay probably tomorrow along with some others and for anyone who wants to get to the bottom of this and see it in person please bid and bid high, LOL , and if you win it feel free to cut it in half , melt it , douse it with acid , XRF or whatever you would like until your heart is content. I just hope I do not get any emails on my auction how this coin is fake because they read it on CCf ect. ,. I really do appreciate all the comments and info on this thread and sorry if I have posted to much here. I wish all of you the best!

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 11:51:08 PM »
SANDAC:

You constantly mentioned that you dived into your database, looking for the tiniest of details and variations from different coins. So, I assume you are somewhat of a data-miner. Don't you find it odd that 2001-D, with 33,000 mintage, not a single "small-D" has been graded by NGC - notice even joeman's batch (2780533-021 to -030) did not have the "small-D" designation by NGC. Yes, they are of the same variety, but apparently NGC didn't come up with the "small-D" idea until recently. (I'm guessing silverstar1's batch is quite recent with that cert#)  Even by your own admission that you looked over 800 photos in "your database" but didn't find one "small-D", no?  If this is truly one "new variety" from some unknown Mint of China, it would benefit silverstar1, joeman, NBM or whoever owns these to validate its authenticity, don't you think? But according to joeman, his batch and one sheet, maybe even silverstars' batch came from him originally (?), and these have been "locked up in a vault". So, some China Mint just minted those 30+ coins? On the other hand, if a large quantity of this "small-D" variety was minted, where are the rest of them?

Inquisitive mind wants to know.
Hi Dynamike , it may have been a mistake but just to clarify these are not from an unknown mint they are from Shenzhen Guobao according to the OMP .

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2012, 11:54:12 PM »
SANDAC:

You constantly mentioned that you dived into your database, looking for the tiniest of details and variations from different coins. So, I assume you are somewhat of a data-miner. Don't you find it odd that 2001-D, with 33,000 mintage, not a single "small-D" has been graded by NGC - notice even joeman's batch (2780533-021 to -030) did not have the "small-D" designation by NGC. Yes, they are of the same variety, but apparently NGC didn't come up with the "small-D" idea until recently. (I'm guessing silverstar1's batch is quite recent with that cert#)  Even by your own admission that you looked over 800 photos in "your database" but didn't find one "small-D", no?  If this is truly one "new variety" from some unknown Mint of China, it would benefit silverstar1, joeman, NBM or whoever owns these to validate its authenticity, don't you think? But according to joeman, his batch and one sheet, maybe even silverstars' batch came from him originally (?), and these have been "locked up in a vault". So, some China Mint just minted those 30+ coins? On the other hand, if a large quantity of this "small-D" variety was minted, where are the rest of them?

Inquisitive mind wants to know.
  shenzhen guobao unknown:) news to me

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2012, 11:54:50 PM »
trying to get some pics up

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2012, 11:57:32 PM »
   shenzhen guobao unknown:) news to me

Thanks. I stand corrected.

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2012, 11:58:57 PM »
OK here is one more photo I had a friend take probably not much better, sorry but this is the best I can do feel free to delete these if they are just wasting bandwidth. And just to clear any confusion I did NOT get these from Joeman mine are from a different source fairly recently, and I do not know about NBMs source. There is also another side by side comparison on SS from another member I believe did get it from Joeman .And yes I still have 2 in OMP. So while I do think this is a very scarce variety there is other examples out there and in my opinion this is 100% legitimate and genuine variety. I have been in the jewelry and PM  business for over 20 years and coins for over 8 years , I have seen all kinds of plated metals and this is definatly not a plated silver coin . To me it would be extremely unlikely that a counterfeiter would produce such a high quality coin out of real silver on a 2001d (which is not a really rare or valuable coin in the first place) in Shenzhen omp with mintslip, just to sell a few 100 or however many exist most probably still in China, and then to have them fool the highly experienced graders at NCS and NGC in several instances. I do understand why people here, very experienced and long time experts in the field of MCC would be skeptical and want some solid proof but at some point we just have to accept the facts. I will be listing one of these on ebay probably tomorrow along with some others and for anyone who wants to get to the bottom of this and see it in person please bid and bid high, LOL , and if you win it feel free to cut it in half , melt it , douse it with acid , XRF or whatever you would like until your heart is content. I just hope I do not get any emails on my auction how this coin is fake because they read it on CCf ect. ,. I really do appreciate all the comments and info on this thread and sorry if I have posted to much here. I wish all of you the best!
 yep the guy on silverstackers got the ms68 from me he won it in an auction i ran over there ,and silverstar did not get his coins from me.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2012, 12:01:01 AM »
The best comparative photos have been posted by a Winfell on silverstackers showing both the 2001-D Small and Large Dates, with nice photo detail and resolution.

After scanning them and transfering them into my PIPE (proprietary image processesing evaluator) It has been determined without a doubt, without question, a "Fake" judgement was reached on the Large Date.








Joke there.     Com'on, where's your sense of humor?    N16


Good photos, reveals a few real differences still exist. Preponderance of the evidence towards "real" shifts upward somewhat IMO.  This is either a rare valuable find, or terrific fakes. Either way, interesting stuff.

Would someone - (Joeman/ Silverstar) be willing to send one (with deposit bond, naturally I'd provide) to Poconopenn and/ or Pandacollector for a thorough exam?




"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2012, 12:05:50 AM »
hi

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2012, 12:08:04 AM »
the coins are real

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2012, 12:09:12 AM »
case closed yet boys:)

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2012, 12:19:21 AM »
now you want my opinion ,which basically is like arse holes everyone has got one:)  they mint probably switched dies ,saw the mistake , and pulled them........... i have graded over 150 2001d all of them have come from the shenzhen mint, but one thing I can tell you for sure and i know you guys are all experts......... these coins are no way, no how, fake.................. it is a ridiculous assumption ,it does not make economic sense for someone to fake a coin in an 8 dollar spot market ,18 months after issue ,with real silver ,and in 2003 these coins you could buy for $1.50 over spot............... ?? and for sure the coins i graded where bought in peking in 2003

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2012, 12:20:39 AM »
Nice photos- thanks Joeman!

We keeping getting better information, which is good.

Oddly, with each photo, I see both increased support for "real", and increased support for "questionable".

I'll leave the final say to the top experts : Poconopenn and Pandacollector.

Joeman would you agree to sending one of your coins to one of these experts?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2012, 12:26:59 AM »
hi
Deposit bond :):):) I would get your credit card balance squared away and bid on brother when silverstar puts his up for auction good luck silverstar!!  ,I will stay away from your auction , I dont want anyone thinking Im shilling your coin as I own several ,BUT LET IT BE KNOWN HERE AND NOW ,I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A HIGH PROBABILITY OF BECOMING VERY VALUABLE ,SO I WILL NOT BID TILL THE LAST FEW SECONDS ,IF YOUR COIN IS GOING CHEAP I AM GOING TO TRY AND BUY IT ...............AS LONG AS YOUR COOL WITH THAT silverstar

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2012, 12:27:25 AM »
now you want my opinion ,which basically is like arse holes everyone has got one:)  they mint probably switched dies ,saw the mistake , and pulled them........... i have graded over 150 2001d all of them have come from the shenzhen mint, but one thing I can tell you for sure and i know you guys are all experts......... these coins are no way, no how, fake.................. it is a ridiculous assumption ,it does not make economic sense for someone to fake a coin in an 8 dollar spot market ,18 months after issue ,with real silver ,and in 2003 these coins you could buy for $1.50 over spot............... ?? and for sure the coins i graded where bought in peking in 2003

I agree with one of your suppositions, and disagree with the other.  Ok, maybe I dont understand one, and disagree witht the other.

What mistake would the mint see and then later change?
And yes, although it seems uneconomical to fake a recent coin, it could be done years later.
It is apparent you have not been the custodian the whole time since 2003, but a "trusted" source. I can't tell you how many times a "trusted" source has made an honest mistake.
Nor can I tell you how many times a supposed "reputable seller" has been found to be otherwise.

Again, I hope these are found authentic.  It just seems like there are still unanswered questions
Which I hope to see answered soon, for the benefit and education of all.
Thank you for your patience.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2012, 12:29:47 AM »
Deposit bond :):):) I would get your credit card balance squared away and bid on brother when silverstar puts his up for auction good luck silverstar!!  ,I will stay away from your auction , I dont want anyone thinking Im shilling your coin as I own several ,BUT LET IT BE KNOWN HERE AND NOW ,I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A HIGH PROBABILITY OF BECOMING VERY VALUABLE ,SO I WILL NOT BID TILL THE LAST FEW SECONDS ,IF YOUR COIN IS GOING CHEAP I AM GOING TO TRY AND BUY IT ...............AS LONG AS YOUR COOL WITH THAT silverstar

No Joeman, I am not asking to bid these up in an auction.

I am asking you to provide a coin to experts Poconopenn and/ or Pandacollector so they can examine and give the top expert opinion.

Are you in?  If not, why not?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Panda Halves

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2012, 12:32:38 AM »
Could you please post a picture of the edge/reeds of the coin?
This is an important part of the equation.

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2012, 12:36:37 AM »
Like this gold one... N20

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2012, 12:59:45 AM »
Could you please post a picture of the edge/reeds of the coin?
This is an important part of the equation.
  who is panda collector?? Peter Anthony??   if it is him sure why not ??  you guys are stubborn:)  photographer (wife) is in bed, so reed pics tommorow  :)    oh and all your BS about  "It is apparent you have not been the custodian the whole time since 2003, but a "trusted" source. I can't tell you how many times a "trusted" source has made an honest mistake.
Nor can I tell you how many times a supposed "reputable seller" has been found to be otherwise."       Just let me say this for the last time I got these coins from a life long friend........... who has been collecting mcc for over 20 years ,they came EXACTLY

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2012, 01:01:21 AM »
where I said they came from ,so don't be borderline insulting ok buddy?

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2012, 01:13:09 AM »
where I said they came from ,so don't be borderline insulting ok buddy?

Not insulting...and not BS...
People make mistakes... Me, you, even your trusted "where I said they came from",
( but you actually didnt say where they came from).
Don't get unsupportedly righteously indignant on me, and I wont be "borderline insulting"on you, agreed?  N40 LOL!

Truth is, you didnt have these in your possesion, so you can't personally vouch for certain, and your source may have made an honest mix-up.  So please dont get all certain on something beyond your control.  I can understand your trust in this source, its just evident you personally havent seen these in the safe since 2003, you are just getting that from someone else, so your support on that is groundless. It's "hearsay" unless you've seen it yourself, BTW.

Sheesh! I am willing to give you that lots looks right with these.

So will you be helpful and send one of yours to Poconopenn or Pandacollector to examine?
And yes, PandaCollector is Peter Anthony.
You'd be much admired and loved if you sent it.  N18









« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 01:30:16 AM by Hipanda »
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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2012, 01:17:12 AM »
poconopenn may help me with this, I think he posted the original link:  there was an article (http://www.jb008.cn/coin/article_view.asp?id=698) whose tables I translated (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=18.msg15048#msg15048) that mentioned large scale melting of existing gold/silver/bimetal in 2002 in two mints.  I don't remember the mint names, and I can no longer access the original article.  I wonder if one of the mint is Shenzhen Guobao and most of the small D were melt down.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2012, 01:18:28 AM »
Calm down, boys. Let's stay focused on the objective:  we are trying to validate a new found 2001-D variety. No need to get personal.   N30 (I believe this is a peace sign:0)

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2012, 01:32:37 AM »
poconopenn may help me with this, I think he posted the original link:  there was an article (http://www.jb008.cn/coin/article_view.asp?id=698) whose tables I translated (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=18.msg15048#msg15048) that mentioned large scale melting of existing gold/silver/bimetal in 2002 in two mints.  I don't remember the mint names, and I can no longer access the original article.  I wonder if one of the mint is Shenzhen Guobao and most of the small D were melt down.

Yes please elaborate on this , if you can remember something  it sounds very interesting and could be a good example /explanation for rarity VS assumed actual mintage in not only this coin or variety , there is probably several different reasons for this type of thing and melting I would think surely is among them.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2012, 01:41:49 AM »
It is logical to ask whether there are different varieties of the gold 2001D as well.  So, out of a sample of 56 G50Y(gold 50 yuan), I find one that may be different than the others.  The difference is difficult to see with the grainy NGC photos and could just be an optical illusion, but I hope this serves as a clue to help forum members locating a potential different variety.

I draw a blue line on the bamboo branch radiating 45 degree from the right paw and intersecting the letter "D".  3628702-014 is the normal G50Y, and the blue line intersect the vertical line of the "D" at midpoint.  See picture 1

3554824-006 is the potential different G50Y, and the same blue line intersects the "D" at a different spot. See picture 2.

Happy hunting!

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2012, 01:43:12 AM »
It COULD be...

If there were a lot of 2001-D melted down, it would explain the huge difference between the observed sightings, and the large reported planned mintage(s).  Maybe all of a certain production run (Small Date) were melted/destroyed.

It COULD be the explanation behind the just newly reported version of this 2001-D Small Date.

Still, I would feel far more reassured to have one of the experts examine one in person. Why not?
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Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2012, 01:56:03 AM »
It is logical to ask whether there are different varieties of the gold 2001D as well.  So, out of a sample of 56 G50Y(gold 50 yuan), I find one that may be different than the others.  The difference is difficult to see with the grainy NGC photos and could just be an optical illusion, but I hope this serves as a clue to help forum members locating a potential different variety.

I draw a blue line on the bamboo branch radiating 45 degree from the right paw and intersecting the letter "D".  3628702-014 is the normal G50Y, and the blue line intersect the vertical line of the "D" at midpoint.  See picture 1

3554824-006 is the potential different G50Y, and the same blue line intersects the "D" at a different spot. See picture 2.

Happy hunting!
These look different to me (although slightly) and not a coin I have.  It sure makes me wonder why the differences in varieties and rarity, history, by chance or design ? My guess is by chance! But who knows and each case could be unique?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2012, 01:57:07 AM »
Yes please elaborate on this , if you can remember something  it sounds very interesting and could be a good example /explanation for rarity VS assumed actual mintage in not only this coin or variety , there is probably several different reasons for this type of thing and melting I would think surely is among them.

The theory I'm working on is:
1.  it is rare because most of them were melt down in 2002
2.  2001D was for internal Chinese collectors, so most of them are still in China in OMP.
3.  The few made out of China are in sheet of 10 and sent to NGC as such, so relatively large number of small D are hidden in few NGC certification numbers that I can plausibly missed even though I have acess to 70% of the known 1250 population.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2012, 02:00:00 AM »
.. and could just be an optical illusion...

Yes I believe its an optical illusion based on bad photo lighting.  I made measurements and drew lines and it didn't seem to add up to a true anamoly.

I detect no difference in gold 2001-D coins at this point.

PS : I readily divulge I have a relative cr@pload of 2001-D gold and would like nothing more than to find some varieties.
If I could, honestly, I would.  I have looked hard, under loops.
I haven't found any yet.





« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 02:07:46 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2012, 02:02:16 AM »
These look different to me (although slightly) and not a coin I have.  It sure makes me wonder why the differences in varieties and rarity, history, by chance or design ? My guess is by chance! But who knows and each case could be unique?
If "small D" is the mint mark of Shenzhen Guobao, then it is logical to have that on all 2001D silver and gold.  So it make sense to search all 2001D for Shenzhen Guobao mint mark.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2012, 02:02:45 AM »
The theory I'm working on is:
1.  it is rare because most of them were melt down in 2002
2.  2001D was for internal Chinese collectors, so most of them are still in China in OMP.
3.  The few made out of China are in sheet of 10 and sent to NGC as such, so relatively large number of small D are hidden in few NGC certification numbers that I can plausibly missed even though I have acess to 70% of the known 1250 population.
Dead on I think all three could be be the best theory .

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2012, 02:09:22 AM »
Here is another way to present the G50Y differences, animated GIF of the two varieties, each variety is displayed for 2 seconds.  Click on the image below and wait for a few seconds for the animation to start...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2012, 02:14:12 AM »
PS : I readily divulge I have a relative cr@pload of 2001-D gold and would like nothing more than to find some varieties.
If I could, honestly, I would.  I have looked hard, under loops.
I haven't found any yet.

I, on the other hand, have zero 2001D.  This is just the thrill of the hunt for me.  It is like a vegetarian on a deer hunt.   :laugh:

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2012, 02:15:11 AM »
Here is another way to present the G50Y differences, animated GIF of the two varieties, each variety is displayed for 2 seconds.  Click on the image below and wait for a few seconds for the animation to start...

Get some sleep. You are tired, SANDAC - you start seeing "new variety" in every coin you look at.   :confused1:

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #103 on: December 08, 2012, 02:16:55 AM »
Nice-
I LOVE those GIF images.

But I wonder. Everything seems shifted up, the D, the Ag, the 999....

It appears different dies were used. Maybe, or maybe its just the photo angle.  If truly different, how are the varieties to be differentiated?   "1mm shift upward"?

Not as clear as "Small/ Large" nor as collectible.
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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #104 on: December 08, 2012, 02:17:37 AM »
Well, good night, then.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2012, 02:22:13 AM »
...  This is just the thrill of the hunt for me.  It is like a vegetarian on a deer hunt.   :laugh:

Oh jeez.... Vegetarians have no business being on a deer hunt.... LOL-
They get excited, stand up at the wrong time, and then we got ambulance noises scaring away the deer and ruining the hunt...     N13
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Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #106 on: December 08, 2012, 02:36:29 AM »
Get some sleep. You are tired, SANDAC - you start seeing "new variety" in every coin you look at.   :confused1:

Good observation as usual DynaMike!    N31:thumbup: ;)
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Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #107 on: December 08, 2012, 02:48:42 AM »
I would like to thank "Grip" for the original post on this, who would have known...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #108 on: December 08, 2012, 03:02:58 AM »
BREAKING NEWS FLASH !

Just tonight discovered differences in varieties in Gold 2001-D Gold!

BUY BUY BUY BUY !  TO DA MOON !   N25 N29 N4
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Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #109 on: December 08, 2012, 03:12:18 AM »
 
I would like to thank "Grip" for the original post on this, who would have known...

Nah... Gripster was oblivious to this new "Small Date, Large Date, Shifted Up Date" stuff.
But he can be forgiven.... He was just holding on too tight!

Where are you, Gripster Buddy?   N50


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Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #110 on: December 08, 2012, 03:21:52 AM »
It is logical to ask whether there are different varieties of the gold 2001D as well. ...

I draw a blue line on the bamboo branch radiating 45 degree from the right paw and intersecting...


45 degrees  from....?  Crazy engineer type stuff..

"Keep It Simple, S........"

Draw a line across the darn chin... "High D", Low "D".  Issue solved. No protractors needed. LOL!
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Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2012, 12:08:11 PM »
Joeman,

Thanks for the pictures.

Please post another picture for the upper part of temple side. Attached enlarge section picture has too much reflections. I just want to confirm those dots on the Chinese characters are reflections, not extra material on the relief. The panda side appears to be OK. There are few scratched marks on the fur.






Offline Dr650rob

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #112 on: December 08, 2012, 12:31:06 PM »
Wouldn't it be possible to put a D on a regular 2001 I think that would be easier than faking the whole coin(not saying this new variety is fake)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #113 on: December 08, 2012, 01:25:30 PM »
Wouldn't it be possible to put a D on a regular 2001 I think that would be easier than faking the whole coin(not saying this new variety is fake)

I have ruled out the possibility. There are subtle design differences between 2001 and 2001D.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #114 on: December 08, 2012, 01:28:27 PM »
Wouldn't it be possible to put a D on a regular 2001 I think that would be easier than faking the whole coin

That possibility has been discussed among some here.  There is precedent among many US coins of such alterations being made with more desirable mint marks added on plain coins.

Not saying that is the case here with these.

Just the realization last night of possible different "D" placement varieties on the 2001-D gold Pandas opens up the playing field a lot, IMHO.  The main difference is we can now see quite a few of each of those gold varieties already out in the market, instead of just such a recent concentrated population as with the Ag.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #115 on: December 08, 2012, 04:09:56 PM »
poconopenn may help me with this, I think he posted the original link:  there was an article (http://www.jb008.cn/coin/article_view.asp?id=698) whose tables I translated (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=18.msg15048#msg15048) that mentioned large scale melting of existing gold/silver/bimetal in 2002 in two mints.  I don't remember the mint names, and I can no longer access the original article.  I wonder if one of the mint is Shenzhen Guobao and most of the small D were melt down.


Here is original article from Mr Huang. Shenzhen Mint was not involved in large scale melting of pre-2001 MCC.

关新中国贵金属币实铸量和补铸情况的探讨(黄瑞勇)

作者:黄瑞勇  出处:  更新时间: 2007年12月08日
实铸量,一般是针对于计划发行量而言的一个数字。顾名思义,实铸量的意思就是一款币章的实际铸造量。对新中国贵金属币而言,实铸量的意义重大,因为它非常鲜明地反映了整个新中国金属币的发行史。大家知道,新中国贵金属币最早的主要功能是换取外汇,与此同时在世界上宣扬中国的政治和文化。在2000年以前,除了某些重大的政治事件之外,有相当多的币是通过各个海外经销商找到人民银行来立项、颁布发行公告,然后找上海造币厂、沈阳造币厂和国宝造币厂生产,最后通过他们进行销售的。比方说,历史人物系列金银币是德国MDM公司所经销;8克生肖、12边形飞禽系列金银币为香港北京金币公司经销;桂林山水金银币为大洋钱币公司所经销;古代科技发明系列币由美国熊猫公司经销;早期观音菩萨系列金银币由美国天坛钱币公司经销;麒麟系列币由Assets Marketing公司经销;丝绸之路金银币由比利时ING公司经销……所幸在2000年之后,我国的贵金属币经销开始变得正规。基本上所有项目都由中国金币总公司总经销,然后再分配给国内的北京开元直销中心、深圳直销中心和香港长城公司、北京金币公司和德国MDM公司、美国熊猫公司等经销商。

早期由于各经销商的实力和渠道不同,因此他们所提议的贵金属币产品规格和计划发行量均不相同。通常情况下,对所经销的贵金属币,经销商一般不会一次性按计划发行量铸足,第一是因为他(她)们要试探一下市场对该款币的接受程度,第二是因为经销商要准备大量的款项来支付材质和加工费用。在经销过程中一旦出现如下情况:

1、市场对该款币的反映并不理想;

2、经销商的经营情况和现金流出现问题;

3、由于央行、金币总公司(或中国造币公司)和经销商管理层的调整;

那么很可能由经销商提出终止或暂时终止该款币的生产。也就是说,各位币友们所关心的实铸量概念在这个时候就跃然而出。


 


解释了实铸量(原始实铸量)这个概念,我们就非常清楚,实铸量对判别一款币的珍稀程度的确有很重要的影响,因为物以稀为贵是收藏最基本的天性。但是大家同时一定还会关心2个问题:

1、各种贵金属币实铸量的数据如何获得?

2、网上流传甚广的上海造币厂2001年-2005年个别品种币的补铸到底如何解释?


 


上述两个问题的回答如下:

1、实铸量的数据,要根据多方的资料来严格考证,这是一个动态的考证过程。迄今为止,没有任何一个机构或个人能罗列出整个新中国贵金属币的准确实铸量。造成这个现象的原因是因为在2000年以前经销商的权力甚大,他(她)们甚至能直接影响到某些币的立项、公告、生产和销售全过程。而且国内的管理机构和生产机构并没有完整系统的档案留存。因此如欲了解非常明确的实铸量,一定需要尽可能了解:

以下机构的历史经销管理档案:中国造币公司、中国金币总公司、中国钱币有限公司;

以下机构的历史生产管理档案:上海造币厂、沈阳造币厂、国宝造币厂、瑞士休格南造币厂、瑞士帕普造币厂、瑞士瓦冈比造币厂、澳大利亚珀斯造币厂;

以及所有经销商的经销记录,如:香港长城公司、北京金币有限公司、美国熊猫公司、德国MDM公司、日本泰星公司、比利时ING公司……等等。

这是一个非常艰辛而复杂的过程,而且一定要以绝对严谨的态度对待之。通过官方和民间的通力合作,实铸量的问题最终可望获得大部分解决。


 


2、有关上海造币厂2000年后个别品种币的补铸情况如下:

根据上海造币厂年鉴(2002-2003)、上海造币厂年鉴(2004)、上海造币厂年鉴(2005)、上海造币厂年鉴(2006)的记录,这里悉数列出年鉴里2000年前所发行品种的全部补铸情况,如表一、表二、表三所示:
 

 

 

好了,我们依次来解释从表一到表三的补铸内容。

首先,补铸不是中国的专利,世界上其它国家也存在补铸的行为,但的确行使补铸时都非常谨慎。举个例子,当年香港发行生肖金币,由于限量发行,因此一时间引人们暴炒,价格扶摇直上。后港英当局马上决定补铸计划发行量的不足部分,对平抑价格起到了一定作用。

然后我们来看看中国的货币发行管理部门对贵金属币补铸事宜的相应说明。下述的说明引用自人民银行货币金银局一位管理者的亲口陈词:

A、              有关中国造币公司年代(即1987年以前)所发行的贵金属币,就算没有铸足,中国金币总公司也无法申请补铸,因为这属于不同的两个单位所管理的项目。除非该贵金属币属于跨越造币公司和金币总公司的题材(如历史人物金银币等)。也就是说,1987年以前的独立题材,如:83年马可波罗金银币、86年和平年金银币等,金币总公司是不可能提出补铸申请的。

B、               在1998年以前人民银行所发行的、由中国金币总公司所总经销的贵金属币,如果要补铸的话,必须要提出充分理由,报由人民银行货币金银局批准。而且,如果要补铸的量过少(一次性不得少于5000枚)的话,基本不予批准。(题外话:本条信息让追求收藏自然规律的收藏者很开心。因为对许多量小的品种而言,将无法实施补铸,原始实铸量将是很好的参考依据)。

C、              从去年开始,所有新立项的贵金属币如果达不到计划发行量的70%,人民银行就不予对外颁布公告,当然也不准核定生产。如果新立项的贵金属币达到70%的计划发行量,不足的余额可以补铸,但补铸保护期是1年。(题外话:本条信息让收藏者对今后新币的发行量基本可以做到心中有数)。


 


谈到补铸的时候,我们不能不提一下另外一个重要的名词:返熔。返熔正好是补铸的反义词。那么历史上官方对新中国贵金属币的返熔情况到底如何呢?2007年是中国金币总公司成立20周年纪念。在《中国金币总公司志》编委会所编的《中国金币总公司志》一书中,也明确地提出了金币总公司历史上对贵金属币章库存问题的处理案例:

l         第一次是在1995年10月20日,金币总公司召开关于重点研究金银纪念币库存问题的办公会议。会议要求:生产部门对1993版以前的大规格熊猫银币(包括5盎司和12盎司)进行清理。库存只保留20枚,其余一概返熔。

l         第二次,是在2002年根据中国人民银行货币金银局下发的关于对部分库存金银纪念币返熔的批复,(银货金2002第20号文件)。这次批复要求金币总公司对部分库存的金银币,所有的金银章和未发行金银币的样币进行返熔,并安排由沈阳造币厂和上海造币厂来监销这批库存金银币章。其中,沈币厂一共负责监销的数量为:金币章:111593枚,银币章:251564枚,双金属币:3909枚;合计含纯金794公斤、含纯银7358公斤。而上币厂一共负责监销的数量为:金币章:108814枚,银币章:188275枚,双金属币:16枚;合计含纯金916公斤、含纯银6228公斤。(题外话:这次熔毁正适逢金币总公司推行总量控制的精品政策,力度之大出人意料。可以说经此大规模返熔之后,金币总公司已经没有什么像样的库存了)。


 


我们再回头解释从表一到表三的补铸情况:

A、03年补铸了大唐镇库公斤金币,03和04年补铸了大唐镇库公斤银币,05年则没有补铸。大唐镇库为香港北京金币有限公司(现改名为香港中国金币公司)的经销项目。第一批产品在98年推出时适逢币市非常低迷,因此后来经销商要求补铸以补偿损失。北京金币和金币总公司是多年的经销关系,当年8克生肖就由其一炮打响,然后一直靠生肖币而叱咤币坛。大唐镇库属于市场补偿合同特例。否则如果要靠补铸来赚取利润的话,以北京金币的公关能力,早就让沈阳造币厂开足马力生产8克金鼠了。

B、1999年滴水观音菩萨银币为镀金银币,据上海造币厂相关人士说原先由于存放不善,造成库房里的成品品相一塌糊涂。给金币总公司提货时,品相不能满足法定货币标准。上海造币厂因此将所有库存先行熔毁,然后再重新生产和熔毁数相同的数量。

C、从03年到05年,我们注意到历史人物银币被不断补铸。这也是我们近年来在卢工和马甸市场为什么能看到全新装帧的历史人物大套银币的原因。关于这套币,有其背后渊源,绝非普通的补铸单子。该币的经销商本为德国MDM公司,在葛祖康先生所罗列的贵金属币章目录上该币实铸量离计划发行量甚远。但后来MDM公司通过卢工一币商找到香港老板,费劲周折,通过金币总公司拿到该项目的补铸权,且补铸额惊人。由于该事动静过大(开始人民银行并不知晓),最后为了平息,金币总公司遂有管理者因此被调离岗位。由于是国际项目,而且合同已经实施,所以该币还将继续补铸下去。

D、04和05年补铸了丝绸之路银币。该大套币的经销商为比利时ING公司,也属于国际项目,情况和历史人物银币类似,合同已经实施,无它,惟有补铸。

E、 04年还补铸了87年12盎司金猫、91年12盎司金猫和96年20盎司银麒麟,各2枚,为中国金币总公司出样陈列所用,属于正常补铸。
了解了上述的情况,我们就会对实铸量和补铸有更进一步的了解,而不会视补铸为洪水猛兽。我们知道,任何实铸量未达到计划发行量的贵金属币理论上在今后都存在补铸的可能性。但事实上,它的可操作性将越来越低,甚至微乎其微。因为《中华人民共和国银行法》和《中华人民共和国人民币管理条例》将会日益完善。贵金属币作为法定货币,它们无论是立项、生产和销售都将益加规范,有关补铸的行为甚至会上升到一个相当的政治高度。作为收藏者和研究者,我们首先要了解个别币被补铸背后的真正原因。其次,当我们清楚了这些币的补铸故事后;我们就知道不能以这些币的个别补铸现象来代替整个贵金属币的群体补铸现象。如同我们偶然发现某枚彩色币出现了大面积彩漆剥落,但不能惊恐到就把自己所藏的彩色币都马上去处理掉一样。

最后需要说明的是,一般上讲,新中国贵金属币的实铸量都小于等于计划发行量,甚至在早期币中有可能远小于计划发行量,比方说古代航海船1/2OZ金币和天下为公1OZ金币等。我们经常看到的有时实铸量会稍多出计划发行量几枚到十几枚,无须惊慌,因为多出的部分是出样币。比方说,5盎司黄帝陵金币计划量是99枚,实铸量是100枚,多出的1枚即为出样所用。再比如说,5盎司龙门金币计划量是288枚,实铸量是292枚,多出的4枚也是出样所用。在新中国贵金属币里,也有个别币实铸量超过计划发行量达10%的,不过这种情况极其罕见。

结束语:



实铸量是新中国贵金属币收藏领域的一个重要参数,同时它也反映了新中国贵金属币的发行史。一款币实铸量的动态变化和其是否被补铸密切相关。对初级收藏者而言,如果怕自己在新中国贵金属币实铸量和补铸方面知识储备不够的话,那么完全可以通过了解贵金属币的计划发行量来开始自己的价值收藏和价值投资之旅。举个例子,1989年我国发行了一款熊猫钯币,这是20世纪世界币坛的唯一一款熊猫钯币。其计划发行量为3000,当年由于政治风波的原因造成该币实铸量只有1367。然后在前些年国际钯价狂飚时被经销商林文虎先生熔毁了大量的库存,造成此币更加珍稀。初学者就算不知道该币实铸量和熔毁量背后的故事,单凭计划发行量和20世纪世界上唯一一款熊猫钯币就能断定该币绝对值得珍藏。对于新中国在21世纪之前所发行的每款币,其附加在币背后的立项、生产和经销信息并不完整,需要我们花大量心血去不断深入研究。只有大家共同努力,通过各个渠道搜集相关的有效信息,我们才能最终建立起系统完善的新中国贵金属币学术理论体系。

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joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #116 on: December 08, 2012, 04:37:38 PM »
photographer is on strike :) last ones boys

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #117 on: December 08, 2012, 04:49:44 PM »

photographer is on strike :)


Buy her flowers, take her out to dinner ... then tell her how wonderful she is.  That oughta work !!!   N18

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2012, 04:53:26 PM »
send me your CC# ;)

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2012, 04:55:50 PM »
e bay listing , bid on gentleman , my buddy silverstar , good old fashion .99 auction too!! 200861492032

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #120 on: December 08, 2012, 04:57:31 PM »
send me your CC# ;)

Sell one of those "small-D"s, the proceeds should be more than enough.   N16

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #121 on: December 09, 2012, 12:09:20 AM »
Here is original article from Mr Huang. Shenzhen Mint was not involved in large scale melting of pre-2001 MCC.

关新中国贵金属币实铸量和补铸情况的探讨(黄瑞勇)

Thank you for the article.  It is good to read it again a year later.

Offline Hippanda

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 12:41:34 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

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Re: 2001"D" Gold Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #123 on: December 09, 2012, 02:12:20 AM »
Never mind- The 500 yuan would have showed it nice, but the 100 yuan you already did is fine. Some members told me they didn't see any difference in the 100 yuan you showed.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #124 on: December 09, 2012, 02:51:13 AM »
The two gold 500 yuan are definitely different.  I can show that in two different ways.  The first picture is the animated GIF like the one I did previously.  The dynamically changing images can be quite distracting.  The 2nd picture is a 50% transparent overlay of one image on top of the other.  Perhaps it is easier to see the difference this way.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Gold Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2012, 03:05:56 AM »
 Nice work-  I agree those two pics weren't the best, the lighting differences made it distracting, but your overlay is great.
It clearly shows the upward D shift, and also a few other differences I've noted, like the jowls vs smooth cheek and smooth vs furry belly.  The "1" in 1oz.  The 999s.

Definate varieties. Too bad its going to have to be described (High D/ Low D) in less clear terms than the already popular Small Date/ Large Date of other coins.

The good thing is that crisply struck 2001-D Gold Pandas in a 69 grade are already among the very ratest coins of all gold Pandas, so assembling a set of all High D or Low D in 69 might be the rarest of all gold Panda sets yet. A chance at a "First" type set which the solo Silver cannot provide.

Pretty exciting stuff here...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 03:15:14 AM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #126 on: December 09, 2012, 03:42:14 AM »
Joeman,

Thanks for the pictures.

Please post another picture for the upper part of temple side. Attached enlarge section picture has too much reflections. I just want to confirm those dots on the Chinese characters are reflections, not extra material on the relief. The panda side appears to be OK. There are few scratched marks on the fur.

hows the new pics poconopenn????







joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #127 on: December 09, 2012, 03:42:48 AM »
hows the new pics poconopenn????

Offline basSist

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2012, 07:58:12 AM »
hello all. i am from SS  :001_smile:

how bout this picture?

big D vs small D  :001_wub:

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2012, 08:48:19 AM »
I think it is pretty darn conclusive:) REAL ,RARE, CUTE LITTLE D :)

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #130 on: December 09, 2012, 08:51:45 AM »
WOW 410USD with 6 days left in a 7 day auction ,heavy hitter,s have not even showed up yet:) 200861492032, congrats silverstar!

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #131 on: December 09, 2012, 08:59:05 AM »
Do you really think there will be a price different between small "D" and big "D" ? Does Peter Anthony know the mintage of the different variety in his coming gold and silver panda book part 2 ?

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2012, 09:10:17 AM »
NICE COINS BasSIST  I am starting to think we should submit to NGC for a new label designation  "The Silver Stacker Hoard":)

Straitssettlementshop IMHO ,if someone of Sandac,s caliber and knowledge goes thru over 800 NGC graded coins,and cant find 1 small D???  pretty much answers that question .... I would think no? that has to speak to Rarity of the small D ,disclaimer: I am no expert ,but just a student of the"rules of common sense"..........................

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2012, 09:11:39 AM »
Do you really think there will be a price different between small "D" and big "D" ? Does Peter Anthony know the mintage of the different variety in his coming gold and silver panda book part 2 ?

Total estimated surviving population of all BU 2001 D Pandas is 33,000.
2000 mirrored 15,000.
Small D is much rarer than 2000 mirrored.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #134 on: December 09, 2012, 10:49:35 AM »
Here is another way of looking at the rarity of small-D:  We know at this moment there are at least 18 small-D out of 1250 2001D graded, so that's 1.4% and assuming there are 33,000 2001D total, then there are at least 470 small-D at current ratio.  We also know there are at least 22-32 un-graded small-D out there (joeman's 10x, silverstar1's 2x, NBM's comes from a different sheet, BasSIST's also from a sheet, possibly different than NBM's).  Since joeman already sold one at $750, and silverstar1's auction is looking at $500 or greater, we are looking at 3-5 times greater price than the nominal $150 for a MS69 2001D.   I'm going to stick my neck out and make a projection:  the high price differential means the 22-32 known plus other unknown small-D hoards will now be graded in the next few months.  This is the rarity distortion.  There will be a rapid rise in small-D population that causes the perceived rarity to decrease and price differential to fall and then the small-D population will level out as the supply become depleted and the price differential will rise again.  I also expect the overall graded population (and their price) of 2001D to rise faster due to the new interests.  

Now is the time to calculate rarity before it is all muddy up.

Edit: here is an example of rarity distortion:  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6819.msg41884#msg41884
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 10:58:57 AM by SANDAC »

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2012, 02:45:25 PM »
Very Good post on this SANDAC , I think you have a very good point on the rarity distortion , and it seems only natural when a new variety is designated people will scour collections and send a new slew in for grading and in the short term rapidly driving up the population. I do think this will be a different animal than the 2003 mirror since for one thing the lg vs sm d is very easy to distinguish in pictures where the mirrored 2003 is much harder to determine from pictures with the only main clue being the OMP which can still be deceiving. The other difference is  that these appear at least from what we know right now to be far scarcer than the 2003 mirror. But only time will really tell maybe even years to really get a feel for the actual population.
Great find on the gold 2001ds as well , this could really get interesting!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2012, 05:08:38 PM »
IMO, both NGC graded 2001 D small D coins are genuine.  With further research, this version may not be uncommon inside China.
 
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12735493645&ali_trackid=2:mm_14507416_2297358_8935934:1355083423_4k2_1295920960

http://www.shuoqian.net/view-6378183.html

Attached are pictures which will allow you to make a quick check of large and small D.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #137 on: December 09, 2012, 05:13:51 PM »
IMO, both NGC graded 2001 D small D coins are genuine.  With further research, this version may not be uncommon inside China.
 
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12735493645&ali_trackid=2:mm_14507416_2297358_8935934:1355083423_4k2_1295920960

http://www.shuoqian.net/view-6378183.html

Attached are pictures which will allow you to make a quick check of large and small D.


poconopenn:

Excellent analysis and research - as usual.  Thank you.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #138 on: December 09, 2012, 05:20:41 PM »
Both silver and gold 2001 D were made at Shenzhen Mint, while regular gold and silver  2001 were made at Shanghai Mint.

Picture of fake 2001 D silver panda.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:38:33 PM by poconopenn »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #139 on: December 09, 2012, 05:55:32 PM »
N31  Very nicely done Poconopenn.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #140 on: December 09, 2012, 05:58:37 PM »
thank you

Offline dragonfan

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #141 on: December 09, 2012, 08:26:09 PM »
★ ★ ★ ★ ★

Offline dragonfan

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #142 on: December 10, 2012, 05:28:28 AM »
As well as a motivated team working!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #143 on: December 10, 2012, 12:20:18 PM »
The NGC census is updated on Monday, this is the latest 2001D data:

The previous no-variety entry remained at 1218.  That number will stay the same or decline very slowly.
The big "D" increased by 2 to 28
The small "D" increased by 5 to 13  Someone else also know about the small "D" variety

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #144 on: December 10, 2012, 07:37:44 PM »
Small and large d

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #145 on: December 10, 2012, 08:06:02 PM »
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but have a look at p.152 in Peter Anthony's book.  It looks like there were different size "D" varieties staring us in the face all along?  I understand that pictures of the smaller denominations are blown up to be the same diameter of the large denominations, and that may hinder comparisons, but, even adjusting for that, my eye perceives differences among the 5 G2001D illustrated.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Gold Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #146 on: December 10, 2012, 08:59:26 PM »
Yes, it appears there exist High D and Low D for all gold sizes.

The 1/10 and 1/20 are particularly hard to differentiate but there are subtle clues.

Also of interest is that the 2001 Date itself is centered in the ring on the 500, 200, and 50 yuan, and
Low in the ring on the 100 and 20 yuan.

The strike and detail seems sharper especially on the Temple on the High Date varieties I've compared side by side.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #147 on: December 10, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »
.............., but have a look at p.152 in Peter Anthony's book.  It looks like there were different size "D" varieties staring us in the face all along? 

You are correct, Birdman.

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #148 on: December 10, 2012, 09:45:34 PM »
Any one know of any 1/20 2001d's for sale

Offline dynamike51

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #150 on: December 11, 2012, 02:28:09 AM »
I pull together what I read from this thread and compiled a collage of nine known 2001D types and varieties.  I try to rotate and expand so all images are the same size and orientation.  I draw a red line through the same spot on the panda's bended knee.  Looking at the placement and size of the "D", I have a feeling there are quite a bit more varieties yet to be discovered.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #151 on: December 11, 2012, 07:14:19 AM »
wow nice work!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2012, 10:58:05 AM »
Here are the 5 additional small D that showed up in the NGC population this week:  3688355-001 to -005.  They are in China, and one of them is listed on eBay three hours ago with a BIN price of $500.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-1-oz-Silver-Panda-Coin-Small-D-variety-Very-Rare-NGC-MS-69-/261142236291?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3ccd4a4c83

Offline basSist

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2012, 11:00:16 AM »
wow nice,,,

can my OMP selling at USD400? :P

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2012, 11:09:09 AM »
I would sent it in to NGC and get it graded.  Who know, it may be a MS70!  It is possible, about 3% of 2001D is MS70.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2012, 11:10:48 AM »
Here are the 5 additional small D that showed up in the NGC population this week:  3688355-001 to -005.  They are in China, and one of them is listed on eBay three hours ago with a BIN price of $500.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-1-oz-Silver-Panda-Coin-Small-D-variety-Very-Rare-NGC-MS-69-/261142236291?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3ccd4a4c83

For what its worth I am the one who purchased it for $500.00
The other 99 cent start auction is already at US $511 with 2 days to go.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-1-oz-Silver-Panda-Coin-Small-D-variety-Very-Rare-NGC-MS-69-/200861492032?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2ec4472340

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2012, 11:18:15 AM »
That's a quick draw and fine trigger work, quick Silverfever!   :thumbup:

Offline basSist

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »
For what its worth I am the one who purchased it for $500.00
The other 99 cent start auction is already at US $511 with 2 days to go.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-1-oz-Silver-Panda-Coin-Small-D-variety-Very-Rare-NGC-MS-69-/200861492032?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2ec4472340

woah.. u are fast. if u finding to get any 2001D small D OMP. please let me know, might want to sell 1pc, or the 2pcs in uncut mint sheet :D

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2012, 09:45:28 PM »
IMO, both NGC graded 2001 D small D coins are genuine.  With further research, this version may not be uncommon inside China.
 
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12735493645&ali_trackid=2:mm_14507416_2297358_8935934:1355083423_4k2_1295920960

http://www.shuoqian.net/view-6378183.html

Attached are pictures which will allow you to make a quick check of large and small D.

It is really hard to tell by these pictures if either or both are in fact the small d variety , the lines drawn would possibly indicate such but we would really need better pictures. I would also say that even if these pictures are indeed the sm d variety , I think you would be hard pressed to find a sheet of these in China, from these dealers or anywhere else for that matter. After looking heavily into this I believe this will actually be the most rare of all 10 y silver panda varieties possibly less than 1000 and in the future these will become very highly sought after and very few will appear on the market, and possibly even counter fitted if the prices dictate such a move. I could be totally wrong on this but go ahead and try to find some for sale good luck!

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2012, 10:04:02 PM »

I think you would be hard pressed to find a sheet of these in China


Really?! I was told 10 sheets of these were sold in ONE transaction. I'm pretty sure that dealer would have more ....


 After looking heavily into this I believe this will actually be the most rare of all 10 y silver panda varieties possibly less than 1000


I'm not surprised that you're believing that .... however, your perception is obviously obscured by your hope (because you're holding a few?) ... it may not (and quite obviously not) be the reality.

Why don't you ask the person from whom you bought your small-D, and ask him to ask his source  .... so on and on ... pretty soon, you may find out someone is hoarding a bunch of these.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2012, 10:27:37 PM »
It is really hard to tell by these pictures if either or both are in fact the small d variety , the lines drawn would possibly indicate such but we would really need better pictures. I would also say that even if these pictures are indeed the sm d variety , I think you would be hard pressed to find a sheet of these in China, from these dealers or anywhere else for that matter. After looking heavily into this I believe this will actually be the most rare of all 10 y silver panda varieties possibly less than 1000 and in the future these will become very highly sought after and very few will appear on the market, and possibly even counter fitted if the prices dictate such a move. I could be totally wrong on this but go ahead and try to find some for sale good luck!

I am hoping this will be the new Microdate if not a new 2000 mirrored. :)

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2012, 10:28:35 PM »
Really?! I was told 10 sheets of these were sold in ONE transaction. I'm pretty sure that dealer would have more ....
Really?! and who told you that? was it one transaction??? Check your facts.
I'm not surprised that you're believing that .... however, your perception is obviously obscured by your hope (because you're holding a few?) ... it may not (and quite obviously not) be the reality.
Sure that could be my perception because I am holding a few , and the opposite could be your perception because you do not have any. Where are you getting any information that this is "quite obviously not" the reality ? Show me some sheets for sale in stock I would love to see that.

Why don't you ask the person from whom you bought your small-D, and ask him to ask his source  .... so on and on ... pretty soon, you may find out someone is hoarding a bunch of these. I have and you could be very correct but I dont see any evidence of it as of yet.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #162 on: December 13, 2012, 10:29:52 PM »
I am hoping this will be the new Microdate if not a new 2000 mirrored. :)
I think it will , nice purchase by the way!

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #163 on: December 13, 2012, 10:31:58 PM »
Please no one bite my head off:) if you compare this coin to the 2003 mirror  you saw them popping up all over e bay shortly (within hours) of the news coming out....... this coin so far 2 ,for whatever that is worth ....................

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #164 on: December 13, 2012, 10:49:09 PM »
Right now of the 13 graded and labeled so far 8 are with Silverstar1, 1 will soon be mine and other 4 are in China...
and goodness how many you own joeman ;)

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2012, 11:02:59 PM »
God does know how many Joemann has ,  ... It is funny that the only people that seem optimistic and happy on this new groundbreaking variety are people that have them..Wishing everyone the best. :thumbup:

Offline shibaji

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2012, 11:06:56 PM »
Looks like the taobao one is large D.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2012, 11:28:29 PM »
Yeah it is hard to tell from the pictures , at this point I think you would have to verify from the source that these are indeed the 2001 d small D variety when placing an order.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2012, 11:48:34 PM »
I just have to say, Hats off !!! to the professional people at NGC/NCS for their discovery of this new Panda variety that has been lurking in the shadows..... N34

Offline Batman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2012, 11:54:08 PM »
Please no one bite my head off:) if you compare this coin to the 2003 mirror  you saw them popping up all over e bay shortly (within hours) of the news coming out....... this coin so far 2 ,for whatever that is worth ....................

I applaud your irrational exuberance regarding the 2001 small D.  Regarding the 2003 mirror, this variety was first discovered back in December 2010 and publicized on LBC, not sure if it made its way to CCF back then.  

At that time no one paid attention, which frankly was good news for the astute collector/investor.  And it was a good time to estimate popluations before everyone started sifting thru their 2003 pandas.  I estimated time and time again that the population available for sale on ebay was always less than 10% of the frosted pandas and actually closer to 5%.  Whether that is 5 or 10% of actual or estimated populations is anyone's guess.  Pricing for the 2003 mirror remained consistent with the frosted version for over a year.  I even checked with a couple of dealers in China and asked if they had 2003 pandas in the Shanghai wrappers, and they said they had never seen one.

Once the version was picked up by both NGC and PCGS, people started to recognize the distinction and started paying higher prices as they were doing their own math regarding availability.  Since then more have come to market, but I believe this to be only a temporary surge, similar to what Sandac was referring to.  Regarding the 2001 small D, you have to keep in mind that "D"'s either in silver or gold just do not appear that popular in China (they may be a sleeper, but if not one wakes the giant, they are just stuck in a coma for a very long time).  This is not to say they may have small populations, but just not that popular.  

 Point being, as far as pricing, I would equate the small D to the mirror panda.  Currently mirror pandas sell for around $350 - $400 for a 69 grade, which I think is fair until more information is published.  If you are a new collector to panda's I would caution paying prices any higher than that as you may be dissapointed with your newly acquired variety/investment....Just my 6 cents worth  N30
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:54:46 PM by snowball »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #170 on: December 14, 2012, 12:12:44 AM »
I just have to say, Hats off !!! to the professional people at NGC/NCS for their discovery of this new Panda variety that has been lurking in the shadows
Stay tuned.  There are plenty more lurking in the shadows.  I'm a "variety hound", and based on my own research with limited resources, I know there are half a dozen major varieties yet to be reveal.  We live in an exciting time.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #171 on: December 14, 2012, 12:31:15 AM »
I applaud your irrational exuberance regarding the 2001 small D.  Regarding the 2003 mirror, this variety was first discovered back in December 2010 and publicized on LBC, not sure if it made its way to CCF back then.  

At that time no one paid attention, which frankly was good news for the astute collector/investor.  And it was a good time to estimate popluations before everyone started sifting thru their 2003 pandas.  I estimated time and time again that the population available for sale on ebay was always less than 10% of the frosted pandas and actually closer to 5%.  Whether that is 5 or 10% of actual or estimated populations is anyone's guess.  Pricing for the 2003 mirror remained consistent with the frosted version for over a year.  I even checked with a couple of dealers in China and asked if they had 2003 pandas in the Shanghai wrappers, and they said they had never seen one.

Once the version was picked up by both NGC and PCGS, people started to recognize the distinction and started paying higher prices as they were doing their own math regarding availability.  Since then more have come to market, but I believe this to be only a temporary surge, similar to what Sandac was referring to.  Regarding the 2001 small D, you have to keep in mind that "D"'s either in silver or gold just do not appear that popular in China (they may be a sleeper, but if not one wakes the giant, they are just stuck in a coma for a very long time).  This is not to say they may have small populations, but just not that popular.  

 Point being, as far as pricing, I would equate the small D to the mirror panda.  Currently mirror pandas sell for around $350 - $400 for a 69 grade, which I think is fair until more information is published.  If you are a new collector to panda's I would caution paying prices any higher than that as you may be dissapointed with your newly acquired variety/investment....Just my 6 cents worth  N30
The thing is you really cant compare the 2003 mirror with the 2001 sm d they are a different animal altogether,on one to the easy eye one is a definite larger letter with different placement and another is a a surface variety. Same with the 2000 mirrored rim that is another thing altogether. I think each will have a unique place in the future.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:55:15 PM by snowball »

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #172 on: December 14, 2012, 04:04:43 AM »
Right now of the 13 graded and labeled so far 8 are with Silverstar1, 1 will soon be mine and other 4 are in China...
and goodness how many you own joeman ;)

congrats silverfever!

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #173 on: December 14, 2012, 06:16:50 AM »
Looks like the taobao one is large D.
  that is what I was thinking

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #174 on: December 14, 2012, 06:41:47 AM »
 N30 N30
God does know how many Joemann has ,  ... It is funny that the only people that seem optimistic and happy on this new groundbreaking variety are people that have them..Wishing everyone the best. :thumbup:
  I am still on the fence as far as rarity goes, I know this the friend I received coins from ,does not have any more, and the other person I know who had some who is very honest and I consider a trusted friend also ,does not have any either, I know of no less than 3 people who are on the ground in China and have scoured Shanghai and Beijing quietly without coming up with 1 coin,that does not mean that there isnt 100, 500, or 1000 locked up in a safe somewhere in China ,Germany or somewhere else, but knowing the skills of the 2 folks with boots on the ground in 2 major coin markets in PRC ,there appears not to be any for sale there, just what I know PLEASE dont bite my head off   N30

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2012, 06:34:38 PM »
Stay tuned.  There are plenty more lurking in the shadows.  I'm a "variety hound", and based on my own research with limited resources, I know there are half a dozen major varieties yet to be reveal.  We live in an exciting time.
I am interested in different varieties as well and I know of 2 others i have been thinking of for a while. Care to share any of these you have found? are they major difference such as this sm d , mirror rim, sm vs lg date type thing ? or minor difference such as pointed shoulder , slight fur tufts on ear ect. I would like to hear more about it.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #176 on: December 14, 2012, 07:01:15 PM »
Anyone been able to locate any more of these 2001 small d silver pandas?? other than Joeman, and the other 2 posted here and the one that sold on ebay,  I still cant seem to find even 1 !
 I still think they are going to be very Rare.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #177 on: December 14, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
Based on this price guide linked by the other poster, I guess here are some other varieties.

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-1967.html

1990 Small Date Frosted
1991 Small Date Frosted
1992 Large Date Frosted
1994 Small Date Frosted
1995 Small Date Frosted
1996 Small Date Frosted
1997 Small Date Frosted

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2012, 07:34:46 PM »
I continue to look for small D in existing NGC cert numbers and was unsuccessful.  I’m monitoring the weekly population report.  If they increase in small units of 1 or 2, then that’ll indicate collectors resubmit from their existing holdings.  If they increase in unit of 5, 10, or multiple of 10, then that’s dealer submission probably due to discovery of large hoard.  At this point, My inability to find small D in existing NGC population, and most of the known small D were in sheets of 10 suggests the small D are due to a single hoard being discovered recently and have not broken into individual coins.  That’s my working thesis, time will tell.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #179 on: December 14, 2012, 09:08:32 PM »
Based on this price guide linked by the other poster, I guess here are some other varieties.

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-1967.html

1990 Small Date Frosted
1991 Small Date Frosted
1992 Large Date Frosted
1994 Small Date Frosted
1995 Small Date Frosted
1996 Small Date Frosted
1997 Small Date Frosted
I have seen some of these but not some of the others , if there is a frosted version wouldnt that mean there is a non frosted version? or are they just calling it frosted for kicks?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #180 on: December 14, 2012, 09:11:22 PM »
I am interested in different varieties as well and I know of 2 others i have been thinking of for a while. Care to share any of these you have found? are they major difference such as this sm d , mirror rim, sm vs lg date type thing ? or minor difference such as pointed shoulder , slight fur tufts on ear ect. I would like to hear more about it.
They are major varieties like, large date, number without serif, or date at different location.  The ones I have not published are smaller coins where NGC photo is just not good enough to confirm, so I'm looking to buy them to take detailed photo.  They are not Panda, BTW.  You've already experienced firsthand the cross-examination when a new variety is introduced, so I'll do my homework first before publishing them.  I will publish the findings first here on CCF.  We are a tough crowd, if it can survive the cross examination, it is real.

You can read my recent variety posts on 1987 5oz panda (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4200.msg42848#msg42848), about 1990 Dragon & Phoenix (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6886.0), and for a fun minor frosting varieties, the 1993 Peacock (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6848.msg42170#msg42170).

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #181 on: December 14, 2012, 09:12:27 PM »
I continue to look for small D in existing NGC cert numbers and was unsuccessful.  I’m monitoring the weekly population report.  If they increase in small units of 1 or 2, then that’ll indicate collectors resubmit from their existing holdings.  If they increase in unit of 5, 10, or multiple of 10, then that’s dealer submission probably due to discovery of large hoard.  At this point, My inability to find small D in existing NGC population, and most of the known small D were in sheets of 10 suggests the small D are due to a single hoard being discovered recently and have not broken into individual coins.  That’s my working thesis, time will tell.
I agree with everything you are saying here. I have checked with my source and they have done the same ect. so there could be 1 or a few sources with these but knowone is finding any or if they are they are not saying anything.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #182 on: December 14, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »
They are major varieties like, large date, number without serif, or date at different location.  The ones I have not published are smaller coins where NGC photo is just not good enough to confirm, so I'm looking to buy them to take detailed photo.  They are not Panda, BTW.  You've already experienced firsthand the cross-examination when a new variety is introduced, so I'll do my homework first before publishing them.  I will publish the findings first here on CCF.  We are a tough crowd, if it can survive the cross examination, it is real.

You can read my recent variety posts on 1987 5oz panda (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4200.msg42848#msg42848), about 1990 Dragon & Phoenix (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6886.0), and for a fun minor frosting varieties, the 1993 Peacock (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6848.msg42170#msg42170).

This is very interesting , I can understand why you would want to get everything in order before you post your results , I look forward to see what you come up with.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #183 on: December 14, 2012, 09:32:50 PM »
Now that I am pretty convinced this 2001 sm d panda is very rare variety, I am really curious as to why they would mint this. My only guesses would be maybe they minted a 1000 or less and had a problem with the die , or they minted these and someone decided a larger d would be better or maybe a special order by a general or someone with political influence Or ??just speculating here but I dont understand why they would mint so few of these . anyone else have any ideas to add?

I also see I now have a negative karma rating , I really do not know what this is for , is that what you get for participating on this forum in a constructive way?? What a joke!!

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #184 on: December 14, 2012, 09:43:56 PM »
Same here. I was plus 1 Karma. Now Im at zero. How do you smite someone here anyway? :001_tt2:

This is supposed to be a kind welcoming and friendly forum but I am beginning to think otherwise.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #185 on: December 14, 2012, 10:11:08 PM »
dont feel bad boys I am   minus 1000000000000000000000 and counting:)......................

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #186 on: December 14, 2012, 10:12:52 PM »
dont feel bad boys I am   minus 1000000000000000000000 and counting:)......................

:)

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #187 on: December 14, 2012, 10:50:17 PM »
I didnt really come here to talk about this but it is strange, I dont think any of us have broken the rules or posted anything inappropriate,   the only common thing I can see with the 3 of us with the bad karma is we all have (or have on the way) the 2001 small d pandas and we all post on silver stackers , so either some here are extremely childish or extremely jealous or both. It is too bad this could be a really great forum on the discussion on Chinese coins but it appears some here want to hide behind their keyboard and make it about smiting new members with valuable input and opinions, hopefully as adults we can grow out of this sort of thing and focus on what what we are really all here for which is to share opinions and observations ,and gain a better knowledge on Chinese coins.

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #188 on: December 14, 2012, 10:53:58 PM »
i applauded you and fever:)

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #189 on: December 14, 2012, 11:16:43 PM »
I think that i need 50 posts before i can return the favour.Thanks Joe.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #190 on: December 15, 2012, 12:08:48 AM »
Whew, Ok back to good karma , what the.. just happened ? anyway getting back to the subject any opinions on the 2001D silver panda ?

Offline Thor122

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #191 on: December 15, 2012, 12:44:36 AM »
Plus one karma to you silverfever.
:-)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #192 on: December 15, 2012, 01:13:50 AM »
This is weird, I gave a round of applause to the people concerned, but seems like joeman is back to -10 from -9. Somebody having fun with the karma system?

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #193 on: December 15, 2012, 04:04:03 AM »
I think there is a anti Silverstackers sentiment on this forum. Even Thor is at -1.
Btw thanks dragondollar and Thor. :thumbup:
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:16:43 AM by Silverfever »

joeman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #194 on: December 15, 2012, 06:46:26 AM »
karma..........:) no one bestows it on you or takes it away:) so no worries
back to the coins:)
$571  for the conserved ms69 on the fee bay  200861492032   ...........will be interesting to see where it lands:)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #195 on: December 16, 2012, 08:16:31 AM »
This thread made me quite curious about this coin I have, is it a small date 2001-D panda? Or just a normal one? The pictures on the eBay sale are not so clear, and my other 2001 panda look the same.

Offline basSist

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #196 on: December 16, 2012, 08:22:10 AM »
looks Small-D to me

Offline r3globe

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #197 on: December 16, 2012, 08:25:11 AM »
Dragondollar, you always help me, so I will "attempt" to help you :) I agree with bassist, it looks small D. I used Sandac method:


Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #198 on: December 16, 2012, 08:30:42 AM »
Hmm, this would be quite a good news. I guess I should get this little bear graded, then. Thanks a lot basSist and r3globe :)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2012, 09:45:51 AM »
Actually, do you think this bear can have a good grade? It has slept for quite a long time in my drawer. The only time I sent a MCC to NGC, it was a 1992 UNEP girl that I thought was flawless but got PF67 in the end :(

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »
Looks like a Fake to me! 

Just kidding, yes it is a small D and looks to be in good condition probably 68+

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2012, 09:13:02 PM »
I used Sandac method:
We've had so much posting today, this one slid off page and I missed it.  It is actually poconopenn's method.  It is a very quick method, just draw a line from the belly to the chest, and it should barely touched the small D.  The same line would have bisect the big D.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2012, 09:37:12 PM »
This coin belongs to SANDAC already ;) I was surprised by how quick the sale ended, I may consider selling more if I find some other individual pouch. I am reluctant to split the sheet, since it may be more likely to get me a MS70.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2012, 10:35:55 PM »
So you have a sheet or multiple sheets?  Were you aware of this variety when you purchased them or you just happened to pick them up in the market?  You may have read that I went through the old NGC graded population of 2001D and wasn't able to find a single small D.  I was quite perplexed by that.  One possible explaination is that 2001D was not popular until recently, so vast majority of the existing NGC graded 2001D were exported in large lots by a few dealers, and they happened to purchase just the large D variety. 

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2012, 11:05:29 PM »
I have one sheet of 10 small Ds, and possibly several others in individual pouch like the one I sold. I need to check that out when I get back home. I was not aware of the variety before, so this is quite lucky. In 2007 a french friend asked me to bring him back 250 2001-D. Since I liked the design and the seller gave me a very attractive price I got 1 full sheet and 20 others in smaller sheets (2 or 4 together) for myself. When I read the topic, I asked my friend if he got some small D in his sheets. He does not know which one I provided him already, but he does not have any small D right now anyway. I was less lucky with the 2003, I also have one sheet of 2003 panda but no special variety.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2012, 11:34:50 PM »
Nice find on this Dragon dollar! and nice purchase Sandac! This is really interesting and thanks for sharing the info on this. If either or both of you get any of these graded I hope for you to get 69s and 70s ...  :biggrin:

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2012, 11:39:04 PM »
I have one sheet of 10 small Ds, and possibly several others in individual pouch like the one I sold. I need to check that out when I get back home. I was not aware of the variety before, so this is quite lucky. In 2007 a french friend asked me to bring him back 250 2001-D. Since I liked the design and the seller gave me a very attractive price I got 1 full sheet and 20 others in smaller sheets (2 or 4 together) for myself. When I read the topic, I asked my friend if he got some small D in his sheets. He does not know which one I provided him already, but he does not have any small D right now anyway. I was less lucky with the 2003, I also have one sheet of 2003 panda but no special variety.
Very interesting.  So small D was already in circulation by 2007, and some of them were already cut up into smaller pieces.  Each of the cut-up pieces may represent another sheet of 10.  On the other hand, your French friend's experience would indicate it is still quite rare, perhaps 1-in-10?  Giving the 4x price premium, I believe many of them will now show up in NGC census over the next few months.

I did a quick tally of my known 2001D with respect to NGC certification number.  The data supports the theory of current graded 2001D as the results of large lot dealer submission.  So it is plausible that the relatively rare small D was not exported just by chance.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #207 on: December 16, 2012, 11:41:31 PM »
Nice find on this Dragon dollar! and nice purchase Sandac! This is really interesting and thanks for sharing the info on this. If either or both of you get any of these graded I hope for you to get 69s and 70s ...  :biggrin:
3% of 2001D are 70's, so it is possible.  Think about that... :drool:

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #208 on: December 16, 2012, 11:45:11 PM »
This is quite exciting, I should go to the market next week-end to see if they have some small D there. I'll share the results on CCF  ;)

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #209 on: December 17, 2012, 05:11:24 AM »
Actually I had to go to Madian to post SANDAC's coin. I checked the market there. They only had 40 2001-D (4 complete sheets), all big D. I also checked at home. Besides my sheet of small D's, I only have one other single pouch. The 19 others are a mix of "without D" and big D. Makes me even more convinced to not sell my sheet, but I can sell the single Panda.

Offline Batman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #210 on: December 17, 2012, 08:56:00 AM »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #211 on: December 17, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »
From the same lot that silverfever bought at a BIN price of $500.  
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43744#msg43744

It is at$410 with 65 bids.  Seems to have a lot of interests.

The updated census of small D is still at 13.  Give it a few weeks, it will rocket upward.

Edit: I see the auction has ended at $410.  Not bad, since small D is distributed inside China, the price in China should be lower, so $500 eBay is about the right price, for now.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 10:18:35 AM by SANDAC »

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #212 on: December 17, 2012, 12:34:41 PM »
Sorry guys, my last pouch was sold. That was fast. Wish me good luck grading the sheet!

Offline shibaji

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #213 on: December 17, 2012, 12:44:15 PM »
Sorry guys, my last pouch was sold. That was fast. Wish me good luck grading the sheet!

Great! Grade the sheet and give us some discount :-) Good luck!


Offline Batman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2012, 08:25:25 AM »
The same coin now appears on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-1oz-small-date-silver-panda-coin-with-D-mark-NGC-MS69-/271124645458?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3f2049c652



Not a bad one day return...75% in one day before fees...its like taking candy from a baby. N27


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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2012, 09:57:21 AM »
Now that XuHong entered the arena and made a nice profit with his first flip, the game is on.  China is where the action is, so dragondollar, I hope you'll give us periodic updates.  Your sheet of 10 is a bit of dilemma.  It probably will be the few surviving sheet of 10.  Forgery of small D is not far behind and intact sheet of 10 will protect you in somewhat.  Still, I would take high quality photo and post them here on CCF as date stamps to establish its pedigree if you want to keep it in OMP.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »
Actually, I sent it for grading today already, while going to the EMS office send my last loose coin. I also went to the smaller 爱家 market nearby. There was a grand total of 9 2001-D there, not in pouches but directly in capsules... I have always thought this market was somewhat crappy. All were big D anyway. I start to think I was really lucky to get this sheet of coins back in the days.

That's for the offline report. On Taobao, there is a truckload of Ds available, but only big Ds. I guess all the serious guys picked it clean already.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #218 on: December 18, 2012, 11:03:54 AM »
I guess all the serious guys picked it clean already.
This thread is read 5784 times at this moment.  I'm sure there are enough Chinese readers that the big marketplaces are already picked clean.

I'm glad you sent them in to NGC.  I'm biased toward NGC/PCGS, but that's just my opinion.

Offline Silverfever

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #219 on: December 18, 2012, 11:19:25 AM »
Not a bad one day return...75% in one day before fees...its like taking candy from a baby. N27



I hope no one here accuses you for shilling or hyping up the 2001 Small "d"...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #220 on: December 26, 2012, 05:04:08 PM »
dragondollar,
Is this your French friend?  Someone from Paris found a sheet of ten 2001D small D, and one of them is a MS70.  He is asking a lot of money for it, $6K.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-PERFECT-SMALL-D-Silver-Panda-China-1oz-MS-70-SUPER-RARE-NGC-POP-1-/230902820861?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35c2e16ffd

I did find a couple small-D from older NGC certified slabs,  2780136-046, -047.  So they do exist previously, but rarely.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #221 on: December 26, 2012, 10:58:56 PM »
I don't know this french seller, but it is a possibility one of the sheet I got originally for my friend was sold to this seller. My friend sold a bunch at the time, and got others from different sources, so he was not able to tell me how much coins he had left from what I provided him at the time.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #222 on: December 26, 2012, 11:07:20 PM »
I don't understand why -018 is MS 70, while it has a dark spot at about 4 o'clock on the reverse, while -017 looks flawless...

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #223 on: December 26, 2012, 11:37:50 PM »
Let's hope this proves to be "The Sleeper".

That the 2000 Mirror, the 1995 Micro Date, and the 1998 Large Date didn't.

Hope Springs Eternal. 

Silver... It makes you crazy... then breaks your heart...
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #224 on: December 27, 2012, 08:19:16 AM »
Maybe a temporary sleeper.  Many more varieties to be discovered...............

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #225 on: December 28, 2012, 03:48:25 AM »
dragondollar,
Is this your French friend?  Someone from Paris found a sheet of ten 2001D small D, and one of them is a MS70.  He is asking a lot of money for it, $6K.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-PERFECT-SMALL-D-Silver-Panda-China-1oz-MS-70-SUPER-RARE-NGC-POP-1-/230902820861?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35c2e16ffd

Looks like he has 9 - 69's that have yet to hit the census (asking $1,299.00 for one, item: 230902812368).  :001_rolleyes:

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #226 on: December 28, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
Yes. Many more varieties to be discovered............... 2779181-019 It is another MS 70 fo Small-D.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #227 on: December 28, 2012, 12:06:11 PM »
Anybody want to buy a 2001 Small D ?
I have an MS69 that I can sell at USD 1000

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #228 on: December 29, 2012, 05:31:40 AM »
Does anyone know how rare the SMALL D variety is?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #229 on: December 29, 2012, 10:40:41 AM »
Anybody want to buy a 2001 Small D ?
I have an MS69 that I can sell at USD 1000
Welcome geoxxx,
Please refer to the forum rule concerning Buying/Selling/Trading:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7471.0

The 2001D small D is a newly discovered variety, so we don't know too much about it.  I personally believe it is quite rare based on searches of the existing NGC 2001D.  I found 2 more and radderlee found one more out of about 900 coins graded before the discovery.  However, all small-D (except the ones reported by dragondollar) are recently discovered or from recent submissions, so they may be recently released from a hoard of unknown size.  Please share with us the history of your 2001D small D.  A picture or two would be nice.  Stay tuned for the unfolding story.

+1 to your karma, let's not be too harsh on the new member

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #230 on: December 29, 2012, 10:46:09 AM »
Thank you
I appreciate any information
I did not know the 2001D small d existed until a few days ago when they started appearing on Ebay
Are they from any particular mint in China?  How did they come about?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #231 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:32 AM »
Read through the 16 pages of postings on this thread.  It is a very detailed coverage of the small D.  There are also a couple other forums talking about the small D:

http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?197-Another-variety-amp-*-2001-SMALL-D-MAKING-ME-CRAZY!
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html

However, I think CCF has the most information.  Of course I'm biased.  ;)

Tell me the story of your small D.  Did you just discovered it by re-examine what you have?  Is it in NGC/PCGS slab?

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #232 on: December 29, 2012, 11:37:09 AM »
Thank you SANDAC
You are a great help
I appreciate your reply

I actually bought a sheet of 2001 coins from China and they all ended up being Small D
I had no idea until NGC graded them so I was wondering what they were
They are all NGC graded 69

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2012, 11:42:15 AM »
Congratulation, that is a very nice find.  By my tally there are now 73 known specimen spread across China, US, and France.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #234 on: December 29, 2012, 11:43:45 AM »
Thanks again for your help
I appreciate all the information

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #235 on: December 29, 2012, 11:46:59 AM »
Do you have any idea what these coins may be worth on the market?
I'm in no hurry to sell....just curious how they compare to the standard 2001D

Offline oober

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #236 on: December 29, 2012, 01:21:32 PM »
Thank you SANDAC
You are a great help
I appreciate your reply

I actually bought a sheet of 2001 coins from China and they all ended up being Small D
I had no idea until NGC graded them so I was wondering what they were
They are all NGC graded 69


When having coins graded, these were automatically attributed?

Any pictures? Would love to see them!!

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #237 on: December 29, 2012, 02:03:05 PM »
Yes they were automatically attributed by NGC
You can check NGC pic attached

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #238 on: December 29, 2012, 02:09:21 PM »
Oh, in that case I'll roll my tally back to 63 because I've already counted yours.  Two of them are on eBay, and one of them is 3692018-018 and is a MS70.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #239 on: December 29, 2012, 02:18:16 PM »
correct i do have a 70

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #240 on: December 29, 2012, 11:45:38 PM »
I know of between 110-120 of these right now,I would guess at least half of these will end up being graded in the coming months. There could be a hoard of them somewhere out there but I cant see more than a few hunderd as of now but who knows it is a very interesting variety especially since it has taken 11+ years to be discovered . Nice score on the ms70 geoxxx! Yeah read this whole thread it is very interesting in a few ways.. Probably the best info you will find out there  now on this variety.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #241 on: December 30, 2012, 12:06:53 AM »
"+1 to your karma, let's not be too harsh on the new member"

Hey Geoxxx dont worry about the silly bad karma thing, they did it to me and everyone who had any of these 2001 sm date pandas, I dont really know exactly why .... N37

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #242 on: December 30, 2012, 05:04:46 AM »
Thank you
I appreciate the feedback and the kindness to let me know
THANKS AGAIN

Offline GDG's

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #243 on: December 30, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »
 :001_tt2: :001_tt2: :001_tt2:
"+1 to your karma, let's not be too harsh on the new member"

Hey Geoxxx dont worry about the silly bad karma thing, they did it to me and everyone who had any of these 2001 sm date pandas, I dont really know exactly why .... N37

Funny How I told Geo the same thing and immediately got banged with the silly Karma thing. I expect more for this post. I'll go negative today for sure. BIG DEAL. Maybe I should begin banging peoples post I disagree with?javascript:void(0);

Anyway I am one that believes that many more 2001 d's will appear and drive the price down. I remember when the 2000 Mirrors were going for about 2k. The price has now been cut in half. The 2000 as a millennium year should bring a premium too. I appreciate everyone's opinions. We can all learn from others opinions. No one is 100% correct(except maybe poconopenn :)))javascript:void(0);

Geo I welcome you and appreciate any opinion regarding CMC's you may espouse.

I must now go duck and cover for this post. ;)javascript:void(0);

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #244 on: December 30, 2012, 11:00:34 AM »
looks like talking karma is a big taboo
I think we are both going to get slammed for even bringing it up
Bu that you for explaining how it works...i had no idea what it was before
I am selling my 2 x 2001 small d's on ebay   
I'll see how it goes

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #245 on: December 30, 2012, 01:48:11 PM »
There is a few on ebay seems like the same sellers, but there is one 261148308773 that at least in the picture is definitly not the small d version, either the seller does not know or is trying to be deceptive , I have tried to contact the seller and it says they can not receive messages due to high message volume??

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #246 on: December 30, 2012, 02:00:06 PM »
The NGC coins on Ebay are mine
The other is surely not a small D

Offline GDG's

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #247 on: December 30, 2012, 02:10:23 PM »
There is a few on ebay seems like the same sellers, but there is one 261148308773 that at least in the picture is definitly not the small d version, either the seller does not know or is trying to be deceptive , I have tried to contact the seller and it says they can not receive messages due to high message volume??

I also tried to contact the seller. Weird. I never had that happen that I wasn't allowed to ask questions from a seller. Anyway I contacted ebay about it. I would hate to see somebody get taken advantage of on this coin.

I personally like to buy direct from reputable dealers and members right here. This way both parties are happier avoiding ebay/paypal exorbitant fees.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #248 on: December 30, 2012, 02:30:09 PM »
Thanks
Ive never sold anything on here
Maybe a small D will be the first
you're a good guy...appreciate the support

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #249 on: December 30, 2012, 02:32:25 PM »
I also tried to contact the seller. Weird. I never had that happen that I wasn't allowed to ask questions from a seller. Anyway I contacted ebay about it. I would hate to see somebody get taken advantage of on this coin.

I personally like to buy direct from reputable dealers and members right here. This way both parties are happier avoiding ebay/paypal exorbitant fees.
Yeah this is strange I have never had this message before on ebay either. I usually like to give people the benefit of the doubt that it was just a mistake , but given the wording of "super rare variety" in the listing and the asking price I would think they would make sure they know what they are selling , I would hate to see a buyer get deceived by this .
As a side note and not to turn this into a ebay quirks thread , a few days ago I tried to buy a 2008 ms 70 silver panda on ebay listed at $350 and I had a 5% ebay bucks that day , when I tried to buy it it said the seller was on vacation and would not let me buy it , then I looked again a day later and it was at $450 and would let me buy it just fine?? (which of course I did not) I dont know what is going on with ebay or if sellers can somehow tweak their listing like this.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #250 on: December 30, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
Thanks
Ive never sold anything on here
Maybe a small D will be the first
you're a good guy...appreciate the support
I would be very careful trying to sell the 2001 small d here , another member did that a while back and caught holy hell for it.. Just a heads up.
I have dealt with you before on ebay a while back and from what I remember I was very happy with the coins you sent!

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #251 on: December 30, 2012, 02:41:54 PM »
Thanks Silver.... God...I don't want to burn for offering a small D :crying:

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #252 on: December 30, 2012, 03:03:15 PM »
I would be very careful trying to sell the 2001 small d here , another member did that a while back and caught holy hell for it.. Just a heads up.
I have dealt with you before on ebay a while back and from what I remember I was very happy with the coins you sent!

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7471.0

Read the B.S.T. rules carefully, as not to incur the wrath   N26  (personally, I think giving you a "smite" for not knowing the rules is abusing the karma system)

Rule #1 clearly states that "Sellers must have at least 25 posts and must have been a member for at least 30 days to participate in B.S.T. forum."

.... which will exclude both you and geoxxx from participating from the B.S.T. forum for awhile.   N30

Offline NBM

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #253 on: December 30, 2012, 03:29:26 PM »
correct i do have a 70
The "French Connection"!  :laugh:
Welcome Geo, you are amongst friends.  ;)

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #254 on: December 30, 2012, 03:33:23 PM »
The "French Connection"!  :laugh:
Welcome Geo, you are amongst friends.  ;)

The "French Connection" ...LOL  :laugh: My favorite movie !! 

Offline bendip

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #255 on: January 02, 2013, 03:46:41 AM »
Dear Moderator,
I must apologize for having misinterpreted the Welcome dms as a welcome to the site viewer. As mentioned I am new and do not wish to discredit a trader in anyway. I apologize for any misunderstand to the trader of item 261148308773.

I did try and delete my post but do not know how or if possible.



Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #256 on: January 02, 2013, 04:51:12 PM »
Dear Moderator,
I must apologize for having misinterpreted the Welcome dms as a welcome to the site viewer. As mentioned I am new and do not wish to discredit a trader in anyway. I apologize for any misunderstand to the trader of item 261148308773.

I did try and delete my post but do not know how or if possible.



Not sure what this post is for but this listing is obviously deceptive , this coin is NOT a small d 2001d . Seller also has a 1993 resealed in wrong OMP.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #257 on: January 02, 2013, 07:36:43 PM »
bendip is not the seller of 261148308773.  He misinterpreted a piece of eBay information displayed on his computer and asked moderators to delete his previous posting based on that misinterpretation.  We did.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #258 on: January 02, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »
bendip is not the seller of 261148308773.  He misinterpreted a piece of eBay information displayed on his computer and asked moderators to delete his previous posting based on that misinterpretation.  We did.

And what do you think of this deceptive listing? and the fact they have maxed out messages so none can be sent?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #259 on: January 02, 2013, 11:37:40 PM »
It definitely is not the small D.  I tried to contact the seller as well, but unable to.  I am able to report it to eBay, however.


Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #261 on: January 06, 2013, 10:37:40 PM »
The price is OK, for 22 of MS 69.

Offline CoinScholar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #262 on: January 15, 2013, 04:12:50 PM »
The Small "D" variety is definitely one of the more interesting ones to come along in awhile, at least for me.  A lot of the stuff people look at as varieties fall into the category of "VAM equivalents" for me, so to speak.  They're varieties, but minor varieties.

I guess the 2001 Small "D", 1995 Micro Date, etc. are the types of major varieties that really appeal to me, probably due to my Ameri-centric way of looking at coins. :)

Offline wg

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #263 on: January 22, 2013, 02:20:19 AM »
 sorry - maybe a little ot

>>>  seems correct from the omp, mint slip <<<

2002 was "the year of the mint slip"  e:biggrin: one coin, one slip

but some are without ..

i don't talk about fake like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-1oz-silver-panda-/110998416904?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item19d8056e08

there are real panda coins 2002 without mint slip.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-1-OZ-10-YUAN-SILVER-PANDA-CHINA-PROOFLIKE-MINT-PACKAGE-DOUBLE-SEAL-RARE-99-/230898697143?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35c2a283b7&nma=true&si=lyVzbxWJwJpWtoSj3CVDEu9QIX4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-China-Panda-Coin-1oz-999-Fine-Silver-Brilliant-Uncirculated-/150980917242?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item232729f7fa&nma=true&si=lyVzbxWJwJpWtoSj3CVDEu9QIX4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Silver-Panda-Coin-/261155212701?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3cce104d9d&nma=true&si=lyVzbxWJwJpWtoSj3CVDEu9QIX4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

... are they resealed?

regards




HI , Hipanda, if this is directed at me , I am not upset at all or taking it personal , I really appreciate all the info and input here , After looking at these over and over again and with loops and comparing to the regular d, and the 2001 and 2002 , I am still not seeing anything that would lead me to believe they are fake or non silver everything seems correct from the omp, mint slip , slight typical tarnish on the outer edge( exactly the same as others of this year) I would love to get some of the expert opinions here , but I also have some experience myself. This is alot more interesting than what I first thought.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:30:15 AM by wg »

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #264 on: February 08, 2013, 08:50:44 PM »
I pull together what I read from this thread and compiled a collage of nine known 2001D types and varieties.  I try to rotate and expand so all images are the same size and orientation.  I draw a red line through the same spot on the panda's bended knee.  Looking at the placement and size of the "D", I have a feeling there are quite a bit more varieties yet to be discovered.

I've spent some time wading through the 18 pages of this thread on the 2001D, and I realized that it may take a while to wrap my mind around all of this in order to identify a recent purchase (see attached).  It occurred to me that there may be a few experts out there who have immersed themselves in the subtleties of this variety, and may be able to tell at a glance what variety my 2001D 500Y coin is.  It seems like a "smaller" D and a "higher" D from what I can tell so far.  Any insights would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #265 on: February 08, 2013, 09:11:37 PM »
I have several pages of photos, notes and comparisons on the gold 2001-D  "High and Low D" varieties somewhere, along with their relative rarity in the various sizes, from an earlier correspondence with one of the other Forum Members here - I'll try and find them. The 2001-D Gold  is one of my favorite varieties, involves some original research of mine, and with the very low number of highly graded coins it makes clarifying varieties of these maybe one of the last potentially really high-value discoveries. There may turn out to be only a couple of specimens in high grades in each size in each variety.

I do know that drawing lines on these gold coins do not show the difference easily, since the placement differs only by a couple of millimeters.  Instead, photos need to be blown up, or loops used on coins, and I've discovered the telling sign is what is seen INSIDE of the D,  and depending on the size seeing either where the bamboo branches intersect, or where the bamboo nodes are. For example, the 1/10 oz clearly has a node visible on the center of the three bamboo branches, near the middle inside of the D on the High D, but on the Low D that node is invisible, being covered by part of the D.  
Again, the difference is miniscule but obvious once you know what to look for and see them side by side.

Someone with access to a better camera than I have may take new photos and post them if it takes me too long to find mine. SANDAC and his super-imposing photos would show the difference well.



« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 09:45:21 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #266 on: February 08, 2013, 09:52:14 PM »
I will not call them large  or small D, but high  or low D.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #267 on: February 08, 2013, 10:02:52 PM »
Yes, agreed. Great photos Poconopenn and lines which clearly show it.

Birdman's is a High D.  

Easy to see on the 500y.

There are some other small differences too, like a couple of leaves and the fur on the panda in places.
But after going bug-eyed for hours looking for a fast common way of determining, you can't beat the inside of the D
on the small coins.








« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 10:15:09 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #268 on: February 08, 2013, 11:02:59 PM »
The high D 500yuan is the common one.  Low-D is hard to find, but there was one.  So Hippanda, are you going to buy the low-D?  I have a note to myself to wait 2 months before thinking about it.  It has been 2 months now.  When the seller relist it (I hope), I plan to tell him it is a different variety and please post a high resolution picture of it.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #269 on: February 08, 2013, 11:47:05 PM »
Yes I have some Low D 50 Y, and a few other assorted Low D, and I agree for at least some sizes they are the scarcer variety.  I can't recall offhand if that is true for all the sizes I've seen though.

I found some notes I made a while back-

I have seen Low Ds in all sizes.  They do seem to be the scarcer variety.
The other thing is, the High D seems to have the better strike and crisper detail.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:58:19 PM by Hippanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline PCGS-ASIA

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #270 on: February 09, 2013, 03:47:45 AM »
Send a couple in.

If it is significant, we may well recognize it.  Regards.

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #271 on: February 09, 2013, 07:43:26 AM »
I will not call them large  or small D, but high  or low D.

Thanks gentlemen. It is much clearer to me now.  For the 500Y those horizontal lines and their relative position to the panda's chin is a quite useful reference.  The variety almost jumps out to my eyes now, even without the red lines drawn in.

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #272 on: February 09, 2013, 01:59:02 PM »
Anyone know which was struck at which mint?

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #273 on: February 09, 2013, 02:09:41 PM »
I've spent some time wading through the 18 pages of this thread on the 2001D, and I realized that it may take a while to wrap my mind around all of this in order to identify a recent purchase (see attached).  It occurred to me that there may be a few experts out there who have immersed themselves in the subtleties of this variety, and may be able to tell at a glance what variety my 2001D 500Y coin is.  It seems like a "smaller" D and a "higher" D from what I can tell so far.  Any insights would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Anyone know which was struck at which mint?

The images I posted yesterday of my "high D" 2001D G500Y is in OMP that has Shenzhen Guobao Mint imprinted on the edge.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #274 on: February 09, 2013, 02:45:04 PM »
All my 2001-D Gold that are in OMP are in Shenzhen wrap, both High and Low D.  I have not seen any in any other wrap, except reseals.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #275 on: February 09, 2013, 02:52:57 PM »
All 2001-D, silver and gold panda were minted at Shenzhen and 2001, silver and gold panda were minted at Shanghai.

Offline panda88

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Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2013, 08:40:31 PM »
Is this low D?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-D-CHINA-PANDA-500-YUAN-SOLID-999-GOLD-1oz-COIN-RARE-/150944896803?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2325045723

Okay, don't laugh at my inexperience with the technology.  I uploaded the image of the ebay item into photoshop and tried to put some lines on it.  I couldn't figure out how to make them red, but oh well, it should suffice.  It looks like a low D, right?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 08:44:16 PM by Birdman »

Offline panda88

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2013, 08:41:50 PM »
I guess so.

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2013, 08:57:34 PM »
Okay, don't laugh at my inexperience with the technology.  I uploaded the image of the ebay item into photoshop and tried to put some lines on it.  I couldn't figure out how to make them red, but oh well, it should suffice.  It looks like a low D, right?


OK, I failed Photoshop proficiency.  I can't figure out how to draw a line instead of a rectangle, or how to make it red.  Do you pros have a thread on how you do the image modification somewhere.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2013, 08:57:43 PM »
That is the exact picture I used to compile a collage of 2001D as posted here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg43487#msg43487

It is a Low D.

Ha! I just noticed it is "Sold"!  Well, whoever bought it please post high-rez picture.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #281 on: February 09, 2013, 09:03:55 PM »
OK, I failed Photoshop proficiency.  I can't figure out how to draw a line instead of a rectangle, or how to make it red.  Do you pros have a thread on how you do the image modification somewhere.
Photoshop is notoriously difficult to use.  I myself use Photoshop Element 10.  It is slightly easier to use, but I would'nt call it "user friendly" by any mean.  If you can read the .psd file, I can upload my 2001D photoshop design file and feel free to play with it anyway you like.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #282 on: February 09, 2013, 10:01:40 PM »
When reviewing poconopenn's high and low D photos, other than the location of the 'D', there are two more details that I noticed.

1. The thickness of the denomination - The '500' is thicker on the high D.
2. The low D type has extra white fur on the panda's neck.

Here they are side by side.

For me, it is very easy to determine which is which in first look by looking for the extra white fur.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:24:23 PM by Gilmore »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #283 on: February 09, 2013, 10:31:49 PM »
I have a nagging feeling someone had already posted these varieties.  If so, I apologize.

Perhaps this is a good time to present a minor variety of 2001D G20Y:  The first picture has eyes and the 2nd picture has "no eyes".  Also notice the shape of mouth are different.  I have 13 G20Y in my database, the ratio of "eyes" to "no eyes" are 9 to 4.



Offline Gilmore

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #284 on: February 09, 2013, 10:51:22 PM »
SANDAC,
Another type of 'no eyes'? The panda's rear side appears to be more complete.
http://www.zhaoonline.com/zhongguodangdaijinyinbi/1832392.shtml
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 11:07:03 PM by Gilmore »

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #285 on: February 10, 2013, 12:35:47 AM »
Hmmmm, that's interesting.  Of the 13 in my list, there is one, 3307033-010, I had annotated with "barely with eyes" and that's the only one with rear side like the one you showed.  So 3307033-010 and the coin you just showed may be a separate minor variety.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #286 on: February 10, 2013, 01:08:11 AM »
Looks like differences in strike to me.  I personally believe some of these minor frosting differences have more to do with the treatment of the die for the frosted look combined with differences in strike.  For example the "no eyes" varieties just look like really poorly struck coins.

Obviously the low d / high d is not strike quality.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #287 on: February 10, 2013, 11:46:45 AM »
I agree the frosting or mirrored field variations are pretty minor except when they occurred to prominent features, such as the eyes.  I think eyes/no eyes may receive greater attention.

There are the equivalent rear-side-filled vs rear-side-sparse that Gilmore mentioned in the 1/4oz G100Y.  Except in this case the rear-side-sparse is much harder to find than rear-side-filled.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #288 on: February 14, 2013, 06:14:30 PM »
Just received this 2001D small "D" back from NGC.  This is the one I purchased raw from dragondollar.  I was actually hoping for a MS70 because it is so perfectly brilliant.  Of course I'm very pleased with a MS69.

NGC census currently show 29 small "D".  There are 13 more that are already graded but didn't get the small "D" attribution.  By my tally, there roughly 30 more in the process of being graded.  It will be interesting to see the steady state small "D" population growth after the initial surge.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #289 on: February 14, 2013, 08:04:23 PM »
嘿嘿, happy to see this little bear got the good grade it deserved  :001_smile:
NGC still has 4 of my coins in custody, hopefully they'll grade as well...

Offline Silverfever

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Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #291 on: February 15, 2013, 10:24:17 PM »
Nice price!

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #292 on: February 26, 2013, 09:32:45 AM »
Last sale for Small D silver USD 950 on Ebay ...

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #293 on: February 27, 2013, 03:41:15 AM »
I will see the over $1000 for S_D

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #294 on: February 27, 2013, 03:44:17 AM »
I think it may be like 2000 Mirror.
May go up to $2000 quickly

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #295 on: February 27, 2013, 03:52:23 AM »
In Beijing market, I can see 2 or 3 2000 Mirror, but no one Small D.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #296 on: February 27, 2013, 04:17:28 AM »
What is price you hear for Small D in China now ?

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #297 on: February 27, 2013, 04:19:11 AM »
RMB 5000 for OMP

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #298 on: February 27, 2013, 04:19:49 AM »
How much in USD dollars?

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #299 on: February 27, 2013, 04:20:40 AM »
$800

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #300 on: February 27, 2013, 04:22:12 AM »
oh still low.  In see some small D sold to USA at $950

Offline radderlee

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #301 on: February 27, 2013, 04:27:09 AM »
OH  sorry, the price is 2000 Mirror, not small D! I have not price for it.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #302 on: February 27, 2013, 04:30:35 AM »
ok thank you   I will watch

Offline haze

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #303 on: February 27, 2013, 04:57:35 AM »
RMB 5000 for OMP

It can vary, I've found a few dealers that seem a little clueless about the small D variety and as result are selling it for way cheaper than they should be.  I had some Small D's graded at 69 that I purchased awhile back in China and I was offering them for $700 so I certainly had obtained them at a very low price (I'd rather not mention the price in public).

For most dealers though I'm seeing around 5000rmb in China (about $800usd) but they are pretty hard to come by.

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #304 on: February 27, 2013, 05:36:26 AM »
OK thank you.
I think best place is USA which is payment USD 950

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001"D" Silver Panda-A Sleeper??
« Reply #305 on: March 09, 2013, 11:57:19 AM »
With more small-D graded, there appears to be two different batches based on the presence or absence of a mint defect mark as pointed by red arrows in the attached picture.

The small-D with the mint mark are discovered in China, Dragondollar's NGC 2782326, radderlee's 3688355, my 2764927 which I bought from Dragondollar.  The two unattributed small-D, 2780136-046, -047, also have the mint mark but I don't know about their pedigree.  The small-D without mint mark are sold to US and France.

Offline radderlee

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