Author Topic: Good Circulation (NGC News)  (Read 1530 times)

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Offline PandaCollector

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Good Circulation (NGC News)
« on: July 20, 2018, 10:35:47 AM »
"My cell phone rang as I waited to board a flight to Beijing from San Francisco International Airport. “Hey Peter, can you check out what dealers are selling at the show?” It was a coin dealer friend.

“Sure,” I replied, “Anything in particular?”

“I have a lot of cash coins here, but just tell me how it goes over there…" read more at https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6697/



Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 11:58:31 AM »
Interesting.  A proof and a BU copper 93 panda.

Offline ccl

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 12:14:11 PM »
there's also a 1993 5 Yuan Copper Panda Sun-j27c Bank Specimen Coin which sold in May 2016

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 12:33:15 PM »
Ok, a bit of google....

1993 2 Pandas 5 Yn Sun-J27a:  MS
1993 2 Pandas 5 Yn Sun-J27b1:  PL
1993 2 Pandas 5 Yn Sun-J27b2:  PR
1993 2 Pandas 5 Yn Sun-J27c Sample:  SP
1993 2 Pandas 5 Yn Sun-J27d Sample:  PR

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 04:24:03 PM »
Here are some recent (2018) auction results of 1993 5 Yuan copper panda.

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=bigauction&action=detail&aid=2009&skip=1 (BU bank specimen, NGC MS63, RMB 49,350 =US$7,350)

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=bigauction&action=detail&aid=523&skip=1 (Proof bank specimen, OMP, RMB 150,483=US$22,460)

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=bigauction&action=detail&aid=972&skip=1 (NGC MS 68RDPL, RMB 4,221=US $630)

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=bigauction&action=detail&aid=2042&skip=1 (NGC PF 67RDUC, RMB 6,321=US$950)

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=bigauction&action=detail&aid=1990&skip=1 (NGC MS68RD, RMB 1,155= US$170)


Please note that the membership of this forum is about 2450, while coin001 has about 126,700. The majority of members in this forum are MCC, especially panda, collectors, while the majority members at coin001 are circulated coin collectors. The significant large collector base vs. other MCC, has supported the valuation of circulated coins in this down market.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 05:09:08 PM »
Another nice article, Peter. I myself moved from Chinese precious metal commemoratives to circulating coins. I still buy precious metal commemoratives once in a while, but most of my purchases in the past few years were circulating coins, those used in real life. It is a lot easier to apply what I learned from the US numismatic market and books to this segment, such as varieties and conditional rarity. It is a lot of fun and financially rewarding.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2018, 09:36:46 AM »
I see lots of bids for graded circ coins.     Even low grades get bids but not high price yet.     Crazy asking prices on occasion too but not many MCC have crazy asking prices.      How long will supply last?.....

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2018, 11:53:47 AM »

Please note that the membership of this forum is about 2450, while coin001 has about 126,700. The majority of members in this forum are MCC, especially panda, collectors, while the majority members at coin001 are circulated coin collectors. The significant large collector base vs. other MCC, has supported the valuation of circulated coins in this down market.


This is kind of an apples and oranges comparison. First off, the Chinese Coin Forum is the only English website I know of that even covers circulating Chinese coins, so its membership includes at least some of the foreign interest in those.

Second, Coin001.com has a substantial full-time staff that provides a variety of useful and valuable services to its members. The Chinese Coin Forum has a few part-time volunteers who monitor the conversations here.

Third, Mr. Sun Keqin deserves enormous credit for developing and promoting the market for circulating coins inside China. When I wrote in the NGC article that I went out to dinner with a group of circulating coin collectors, it was because Mr. Sun invited me along. That was not the only time, either. Go to one of his well-attended lectures at a coin show, or watch his frequent appearances on Chinese TV, and you will better understand his impact.

The only person who came close to filling that role in MCC is gone; Nick Brown. From my perspective, the Modern Chinese Coin market misses his energy, intellect and fervor far more than is commonly recognized. 

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2018, 12:22:42 PM »
Mr. Sun's impact on the Chinese circulating coins is beyond words. For one thing, coin001.com is paid out of his own pocket. The website is still losing money because there are few ads and commission from coin sales/auctions is extremely low. Mr. Sun has his own business, and so can afford to foot the bill.

I came to MCC too late to feel the influence of Nick. But I don't believe that the overall MCC market could be much different even if he were alive now. The US MCC market is a small section of the total MCC market. A similar leading figure in China would be more instrumental. But people like Huang Ruiyong and Ge Zukang got into controversies, lost their leadership and have not been very active. Yet this is only one of the reasons that the MCC market is low. Generally MCC is tied to and held captive by the bullion prices. The base metal circulating coins, on the other hand, are free from this problem and follow the market cycle of their own.
 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2018, 12:31:20 PM »
I am sorry that Frank never met Nick, it would have been nice for both of them. I am very glad that Frank is here to share his knowledge with us. As for Nick's potential influence on the MCC market, what is unknowable can only be speculated about. A couple of things that Nick and Mr. Sun share(d) is that both were collectors themselves and neither relied on coins for income.

A larger conversation is the perception that certain coin values are tied to bullion.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2018, 03:41:51 PM »
Just want to give credit to the owner of this forum, snowball, for his efforts to promote MCC to the collectors worldwide. This forum, started in 2008, has no advisement or commission income to fund the operations.  He did not ask any financial support from members until 2016, for very small donation.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=12527.0 (You need to login to see this thread)

Many members have contributed their knowledge and their discovery in this forum for new varieties which were recognized by grading services companies later. I own at least 80% of the books related to MCC. Unfortunately, none of those authors has ever credit to this forum for the discovery of those varieties in their books.
 
Mr. Sun is the only author who provides the source of the discovery of the varieites in his book. 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 01:17:12 PM »
Just want to give credit to the owner of this forum, snowball, for his efforts to promote MCC to the collectors worldwide. This forum, started in 2008, has no advisement or commission income to fund the operations.  He did not ask any financial support from members until 2016, for very small donation.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=12527.0 (You need to login to see this thread)

Many members have contributed their knowledge and their discovery in this forum for new varieties which were recognized by grading services companies later. I own at least 80% of the books related to MCC. Unfortunately, none of those authors has ever credit to this forum for the discovery of those varieties in their books.
 
Mr. Sun is the only author who provides the source of the discovery of the varieites in his book. 


The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3 acknowledges the owner and sponsor of this forum by name. Panda Halves is credited with first reporting the different versions of the Temple of Heaven railing. I will remember to mention the forum itself in future editions; it is a good idea.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 09:22:51 PM »

The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3 acknowledges the owner and sponsor of this forum by name. Panda Halves is credited with first reporting the different versions of the Temple of Heaven railing. I will remember to mention the forum itself in future editions; it is a good idea.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Perhaps, you need to revisit the following thread.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7931.0

Wg was the first member posted side-by-side pictures of 1993 gold panda to show the difference in the shape of railing window (Reply #40, 42, 52, 59 and 66). PCGS confirmed the difference in Reply #78 and NBM posted side-by-side picture of 1 oz. 1992 silver panda in Reply #81. It was the jointed efforts by many members of this forum to discover the difference in the shape of railing window of  gold and silver panda made by Shanghai and Shenyang Mint between 1989-1999.



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2018, 09:40:41 PM »
Perhaps, you need to revisit the following thread.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7931.0

Wg was the first member posted side-by-side pictures of 1993 gold panda to show the difference in the shape of railing window (Reply #40, 42, 52, 59 and 66). PCGS confirmed the difference in Reply #78 and NBM posted side-by-side picture of 1 oz. 1992 silver panda in Reply #81. It was the jointed efforts by many members of this forum to discover the difference in the shape of railing window of  gold and silver panda made by Shanghai and Shenyang Mint between 1989-1999.


Panda Halves provided me with this information privately for use in my book prior to this thread. I participated in this discussion, so was fully aware of it, but Panda Halves was the first to point this design feature out to me. Funny thing, but around this time PCGS-Asia and I used to have lunch together once a week. He never said anything on the subject before Panda Halves told me. Maybe he knew it earlier? No way to know.

In general, I am not in favor of giving personal credit to things found, like varieties. There is no way to really determine who noticed something first. Most of the varieties in my book I found on my own, but do not mention it. OTOH, things created like photos, stories, etc. should (except for special circumstances) always be attributed. YMMV.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2018, 09:44:15 PM »
Here is a photo of a Shanghai 100 Yuan (left) and a Shenyang 100 Yuan (right). The coins are still in their OMPs, and I left some of the pouch markings so that you can see what those look like. Please note not just the size of the numerals, but also their shapes. Also the size and shapes of the Chinese characters. I'll get some hi-res images of 50 Yuan coins posted ASAP (meaning as soon as I have time). The 1993 50 Yuan and 100 Yuan are among the most difficult to distinguish between the varieties, but it's doable. I'm still positive that the coin at the beginning of this topic is a product of the Shenyang Mint, and a Small date. I have to say that the terms Large Date and Small Date are barely applicable to these. They are just Shanghai (S) and Shenyang (Y) in my mind.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

As quoted above, the comment you posted in the thread, referred in my previous post, IMO, it suggested that you had no knowledge about the shape difference of railing window of gold and silver pandas made by Shanghai and Shenyang Mint during the period 1989-1999, prior to the discussions in the referred thread.

Both your Guide 2 and Guide 3 suggest that the window difference for all pandas prior to 2000. This is not true, it only covers period 1989-1999.



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2018, 10:17:52 PM »
Sorry, Poconopenn, but you are jumping to a conclusion that's off-base. I had given my word not to publicly mention the railings prior to publication of the The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 2 and I kept my word.

To help put your mind at ease, there is no ulterior motive to crediting Panda Halves with this discovery. He certainly didn't give me anything other than some interesting information. Like I said, he is the person who showed me this feature first and that's why I credit him with the find. If I had already seen the same information on the Chinese Coin Forum, I would not have done that through two English and two Chinese editions of the book.

Also, like I said, I do not favor crediting the "discoverer" of coin features, largely because it leads to discussions like this. But Panda Halves showed me something that I thought deserved to be shared with other collectors. I had no way of knowing that there would be a later public discussion about it on this forum.

I appreciate your helpful advice that the date range for the railing design could be clearer (I was and am aware that this runs from 1989-1999, thank you) and that can be addressed in the next edition of the book.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2018, 08:37:12 PM »
Now that the commercial break is over, maybe there is something more to say about circulating coins?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline wg

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 12:36:49 PM »
Quote
.. not to publicly mention the railings prior to publication of the The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 2 ..
peter
 :001_unsure: N20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh58WITU8



Quote
Agreed with Peter - original thread coin is Shenyang small.
( .. )


Quote
if this is shenyang mint ...

i'll eat my socks :001_tongue:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7931.msg46602#msg46602



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 02:12:53 AM »
Games, W.G.? Who is playing games?

Following is a short email conversation from 2011 with Panda Halves. It demonstrates that he and I were using this feature to distinguish the mints of Pandas by that time. This is more than one year prior to the first discussion of this subject on the Chinese Coin Forum and the thread you have linked to. There are more than a dozen other emails that are even older that also reference the shape of the railings (or windows) of the Temple of Heaven on 1989-1999 Panda coins. This is why the discovery is correctly attributed to Panda Halves in The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 2 and 3.

The recent posts by you and Poconopenn just confirm for me what a mistake it is to credit people with "ownership" of a coin's features. There is always somebody whose feathers get ruffled.


From: (Panda Halves)
Date: September 24, 2011 at 07:58:43 PDT
To: Peter Anthony <pricepedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Windows

Peter,
Yes. Useful metric for 1990's pandas.
: )
Maybe (XXX) should look at buying this one.

(Panda Halves)

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 24, 2011, at 12:51 AM, Peter Anthony <pricepedia@yahoo.com> wrote:

(Panda Halves),

Here is a Shanghai gold Panda that appears to have arched windows. It doesn't appear to be resealed, either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150666945942&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Best,
Peter


Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 02:20:55 AM »
I agree it is a mistake to credit variety discovery to anyone, because it is so hard to confirm who deserves credit. 

In 2010 and 2011 a coin colleague shared with me notes from Huang Ruiyong about 30+ varieties for chinese pandas and later Huang spent time with me showing me even more details about pandas. Many of those varieties didn't show up in PA books until years later and many are still not present.  At the time the plan was Huang was working on his own book that would publish all this material and those that saw those notes were to keep it to themselves until the book's publication, which is why you rarely see me talk about varieties on the forum, because others often point them out to me (I am more investor type than a numismatic investigator) and I leave to them to publish the info. 

I hope he comes back to the market someday, his knowledge and passion for studying modern coins is second to none.  If someone knows what happened to him PM me, I have some info, but don't know rumors from facts.   

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 02:55:13 PM »
Who discovered the River Nile?
Who discovered the Americas?

My respectful opinion is that it doesn’t matter that the discovery of anything (within and without numismatics) is credited to a particular individual or group as long as the statement of attribution is crafted with the knowledge that someone else could have actually been the first, hence the placement of appropriate caveats in the attribution.

It is appropriate that individuals who have made important contributions to any field are recognized.

This is a general statement and does not refer to any particular individual or area of endeavor.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2018, 01:22:20 PM »
I agree it is a mistake to credit variety discovery to anyone, because it is so hard to confirm who deserves credit. 

In 2010 and 2011 a coin colleague shared with me notes from Huang Ruiyong about 30+ varieties for chinese pandas and later Huang spent time with me showing me even more details about pandas. Many of those varieties didn't show up in PA books until years later and many are still not present.  At the time the plan was Huang was working on his own book that would publish all this material and those that saw those notes were to keep it to themselves until the book's publication, which is why you rarely see me talk about varieties on the forum, because others often point them out to me (I am more investor type than a numismatic investigator) and I leave to them to publish the info. 

I hope he comes back to the market someday, his knowledge and passion for studying modern coins is second to none.  If someone knows what happened to him PM me, I have some info, but don't know rumors from facts.   





Arif;  IF there are that many possible varieties of pandas then how about other MCC or circ coins/etc....?    There maybe many, many varieties undiscovered...




Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Good Circulation (NGC News)
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2018, 12:12:43 AM »
There are many varieties all over MCC.  There will be many errors to designate in the future.  It is early stage for MCC, give it 30-50 years to see how it turns out.