Author Topic: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?  (Read 479 times)

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Offline bullionblog.eu

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Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« on: April 12, 2018, 07:41:17 AM »
Dear all.

I have been working on the subject of "Fake Coins" in Germany for years and after publishing a book with some recent examples, I have thought of different and new ways to warn collectors and draw their attention towards the problem of counterfeit coins. One idea would be to upload several videos of fake coins on YouTube and show some of the details that are typical for counterfeits. Here is a sample video of a 2005 Panda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZQNqaQa3g

What do you think? Does this make sense to give people a general reminder on the problem and also a possibility to have a closer look at coins that they are planning to buy? Please give me your feedback, positive and negative :-)

Best wishes and greetings
Sebastian

Offline bender9876

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 09:30:42 AM »
Hi Sebastian,  Thanks for the video. I think its a great idea. You can never learn to much. This is a alarming trend, so we need all the help we can get. Thanks again Jim

Offline Jens

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 12:33:40 PM »
Thank you, great idea.

Offline Agpanda

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 01:17:31 PM »
I think its a great idea, if the book will be in English i will absolutely buy one

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 06:47:19 PM »
Dear all.

I have been working on the subject of "Fake Coins" in Germany for years and after publishing a book with some recent examples, I have thought of different and new ways to warn collectors and draw their attention towards the problem of counterfeit coins. One idea would be to upload several videos of fake coins on YouTube and show some of the details that are typical for counterfeits. Here is a sample video of a 2005 Panda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZQNqaQa3g

What do you think? Does this make sense to give people a general reminder on the problem and also a possibility to have a closer look at coins that they are planning to buy? Please give me your feedback, positive and negative :-)

Best wishes and greetings
Sebastian

Sebastian, based on my experience this is not a simple decision, at all. On the one hand, it is positive to inform the public about the distinguishing features of counterfeits. On the other, it is very helpful to the counterfeiters themselves to have this information.

Around a decade ago, I published this sort of guide on www.pandacollector.com. A few months later new, improved counterfeits hit the market. These new versions had corrected all the flaws that I had identified and were much more difficult to identify as fakes. To this day these improved fakes still sometimes fool people, including professionals.

At a coin show a couple of months ago, I had to say to a dealer that he had bought some fake Pandas there. They were good enough that you wouldn't know they were fakes without comparing them side-by-side with a genuine coin while using a good magnifier. That was a $1,000+ mistake for the dealer and he was not happy.

That harks back to a concern that dealers and other collectors expressed to me way back when. If it becomes too difficult to distinguish real from fake Pandas this would drive people away from the field. With some misgivings, I stopped publishing new information. 

I suspect that a new guide to counterfeit Pandas will have the same result; among your viewers will be every fake coin maker. They will study your work and use it as a quality control guide to improve their products. It is up to you the decide the wisdom of this effort.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia  — Chinese Coin Prices and More
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline bender9876

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 07:08:43 PM »
Very true, Thanks Peter

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 12:23:00 AM »
Similar situation here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=13078.0

Notice no recent rebuttals.

No need to identify where the fakers go wrong. It makers them better!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 08:08:29 AM »
There is also another u tube that says almost all gold sold on ebay is fake.      Are there that many fake OMP small gold pandas?....

Offline bullionblog.eu

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 08:45:51 AM »
I think that the silver pandas are much wider spread, but the typical AliExpress counterfeit dealers do also have 1/10 ounce gold coins. Here is also a nice close-up of the 2007 gold Panda 25th anniversary set as a fake: https://youtu.be/NOI_61W06mw

Offline Jens

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 03:39:57 PM »
On second thought i fear Peter might be right about this. It would be nice to be kept up-to-date about fakes but the fakers will adapt and get better.
I always wondered why you stopped posting about fakes Peter, now i know the answer :-(

For the average Joe like me that means i have to buy from trusted dealers that have a lot of experience themselves or rely on NCG and that's exactly what i have been doing for several years now.
If i think about it the fake problem might already affect dealer sales of chinese pandas etc. at coin shows. I don't even collect coins that are faked a lot but even i know exactly one guy i buy from at a coin show and he's specialising in MMC. 

Offline bullionblog.eu

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 03:44:41 PM »
I think it is a totally fair point to discuss the necessity of photos and videos of counterfeit coins and I am also kind of worried that the counterfeiters use this as background information to make their products better. But I still see that there are fake Pandas being sold on the German eBay on a daily basis, and people don't get suspicious ... which is strange, as you can easily distinguish between Fake and Real Pandas if you know  some differences. So I thought that it might be good to show the details of Fake coins to make clear what to observe when looking for new additions to the collection :-)

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 05:14:26 PM »
Peter's excellent comment notwithstanding, I think you should continue to make videos of fakes.  This is because you are not pointing out specific features of a fake (the specific "diagnostics" that counterfeiters can learn & correct), but the general impression of a coin.  A well focus, zoomed in video of a coin that rotates slowly while lights & shades plays over its surface is an excellent way of getting impression of the coin.  Commentary of specific flaws are unnecessary.  This is how we looked over a coin and this is how a grader looks over a coin.  The "Achilles heel" of counterfeit coins is that they don't have the original die.  They have to make a die from the existing coin therefore suffered further erosion of details due to the two extra steps.  The lost of details and sharpness of features are immediately obvious when you examine the coin closely while rotating it over light.  This is what your video is showing.  In this respect, a video is superior to a super detailed high-resoultion photograph. 

Very instructive, keep up the good work!

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 05:25:04 PM »
Counterfeiters have to consider the cost factor in making fake coin. High quality fake requires significant investment in equipment plus the cost of original genuine coin. During mid-2000, counterfeiters used one design of temple for all different dates of silver panda to save money. They had no idea that temple design is different with different dates. To this day, those earlier fakes are still in the market place. There is a limitation for counterfeiter to make a high quality fake. Chinese counterfeiters have spent more than 20 years to copy Morgan dollars and Indian cents, but those fakes still can be detected by most collectors, simply because collectors have gained the knowledge by watching the video, reading the books, such as PCGS’s “Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection” and visiting various forum discussions.
 
Practically, every MCC have fake one in the market place, especially, commemorative sets and lunars. Usually, they show up within several days after China Mint issued those coins. Counterfeit is always an issue for collectors, but has not stop collector to continue collecting.

The following thread provides side-by-side pictures of genuine vs. fake silver pandas from 1983 to 2014.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10994.0

bullionblog.eu

Nicely done. It clearly shows the rough surface of fake coin. Perhaps, you can add genuine coin in your video to show the surface differences for new collectors. They need to be educated as you suggested. 


Offline bullionblog.eu

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2018, 05:34:55 PM »
Thank you so much for the feedback and the extra ideas. I will prepare some videos with the direct comparison between real and fake. And I will also keep thinking about Peter's position, which I can totally understand.

But to be honest, I assumed that the counterfeits in my videos are no real news to the other counterfeiters, while the regular collector is not yet trained in the "pattern recognition" of typical fake Pandas.

I myself learned a lot from the comparative images that Peter put up on "pandacollector.com" years ago and his work actually helped me detecting some fakes that I was about to buy, so in the end the money was invested in some genuine stuff :-)

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Videos of Fake Panda Coins - What do you think?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 08:21:43 PM »
Thank you so much for the feedback and the extra ideas. I will prepare some videos with the direct comparison between real and fake. And I will also keep thinking about Peter's position, which I can totally understand.

But to be honest, I assumed that the counterfeits in my videos are no real news to the other counterfeiters, while the regular collector is not yet trained in the "pattern recognition" of typical fake Pandas.

I myself learned a lot from the comparative images that Peter put up on "pandacollector.com" years ago and his work actually helped me detecting some fakes that I was about to buy, so in the end the money was invested in some genuine stuff :-)

I believe that the general idea here is that it is good to educate the public about counterfeit coinage. The task is how to do it without giving away too many secrets to the counterfeiters. I am sure that from your experience you can formulate general rules to guide the naive. Certain general features of counterfeit coins as highlighted by SANDAC can be a good starting point especially if you can demonstrate them with the suggested side by side comparisons. Ultimately you will determine how best to use your skills to help other collectors. Thanks and best of wishes.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!