Author Topic: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation  (Read 1145 times)

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Offline applenj

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PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« on: March 14, 2018, 01:12:33 PM »
It was recommended that I post specifics to pick your collective hive mind.  I have some coins that I had graded by PCGS in 2011.  Based on some of what I've read here on grade inflation after 2012 with both services, differences between PCGS and NGC, and thoughts on NCS, I'm considering whether there might be value to cracking any of them open and submitting for conservation and/or re-grading.  Any thoughts or perspective would be most welcome!

There's an MS-66 I think could benefit from some conservation for the discoloration. An MS-68 that seems to have similar discoloration.  A more typical MS-68, and an MS-69.  Part of the consideration is that, grade inflation notwithstanding, the PCGS grades seem to have higher value for comparable grades than the NGC (chart also attached).  So it appears that going with NCS and getting a new NGC grade would require at least one grade step up just to hold the value indicated on the PCGS chart.  It's very confusing!

Thanks for any input!

 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 02:36:14 PM »
First of all, that chart you posted at the bottom is bunk. Do not pay attention to it. It is incorrect.

Second, the only advice that really means anything at this point is whether senior members here feel like NCS conservation can get rid of the haziness that is on the mirror surfaces your coins. If that effect can be removed, these coins would benefit from resubmission. If submission to NCS will do nothing to remove that haziness, then there is no point in resubmitting because conversion to NGC will not improve the look of the coins. Due to eye apeal problems, people will still not want to buy them.

Offline applenj

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 02:45:53 PM »
OK.  I appreciate the input.  The chart is simply what I assembled today from the NGC and PCGS sites themselves. I had someone reference one of those PCGS values recently.

Offline tater

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 03:03:47 PM »
Hey,

I would not worry about those values provided by either PCGS or NGC.  The only good they are for is to help with what to place on the submission form for insurance. 
I have had two gold coins that have had haze on them in their original mint packages.  NCS did a great job in removing it.  They only had the haze around the temple and they were 1/4 oz coins so their fields were not as large on these coins.  The haze on your coins is more than what mine had.  If they can remove it and I think they can than the increased eye appeal is worth it whether or not they get grade bumps or not.  I'd buy a nice looking MS 68 over a hazed 69, but that is just my opinion.  Eye appeal sells and will help you move the coins in the future if you need to move them. 
If you are not sure send one in and see if they say they can remove it or not.  I think they can and will so the big question is do you crack them out or send them in as is in the PCGS holder?

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 11:41:18 PM »
Given the cosmetic appearance of these coins conservation (NCS) is the way to go. Be careful with cracking out the coins!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline egi1000

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2018, 09:14:11 AM »
Hi, haze is caused by pcgs holders. if you have a look at pcgs pictures youll see that there was no haze before (when coins were graded). you also see the "problems" of the coins at high resolution pcgs pictures. ncs can do a lot but i think ngc grades might be lower than your pcgs grades - ms66 might stay ms66, but all the other coins could get 1 grade lower. anyways your coins will look nicer after NCS conservation of course.  :001_smile:
ps. normally ncs can remove the haze caused by pcgs holders, attached pictures (PCGS MS69 -> NGC MS69)

Offline applenj

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2018, 09:52:29 AM »
Thanks, ecgi.  That's super helpful.  I'll definitely send a couple to NCS now and hope to get comparable results.  At least I'm more optimistic now.  They did a great job with yours, and it seems like similar issues.

It also seems kind of unconscionable that the "protective" holders a service like this is providing are actually causing damage!

Offline egi1000

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2018, 10:28:28 AM »
Hi applenj, nice that i could help you deciding wether to send to ncs or not :)  removing pcgs haze is an easy job for ncs :) i have done this with several coins. all coins same result -> haze completely disappeared and coins look very nice. Good luck !!!
Attached pictures of your coins taken by pcgs just after grading - there was no haze at all. pcgs slabs (i have read only a special series of pcgs slabs) are really dangerous for newer coins !!!!!! stay away !!!!!

Offline applenj

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 10:55:28 AM »
 :scared: :blink:  N1 N26

That's absolutely infuriating.  I'd have done better by them just saving the money and leaving them in the flips they came in, instead of trying to "protect" them. 

Thank you.  This is extremely helpful!

Offline egi1000

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 01:03:47 PM »
i only collect ngc pandas.
but hey you have pcgs slabs with a yellow shield which means there are online photos at pcgs and so you have the evidence that this happened in the slab. so you could get in touch with pcgs. pcgs also has a coin restauration section. perhaps pcgs will do it for free "under warranty". you could send just photos to pcgs - before and after. under these circumstances your grades might be unchanged at pcgs of course.  :biggrin:
anyways the danger of having the haze in a few years again... :confused1:

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 02:55:46 PM »
The only thing worse than keeping a coin in PVC omp is putting it in a PCGS slab.  PCGS slabs ruin eye appeal of coins to levels that one could not do intentionally if paid to do so.  It blows my mind why anyone that has witnessed the hazing in PCGS slabs would ever send a single coin to them.  I unfortunately I still own 3 coins in PCGS slabs, they are MS70s that I am happy to get NGC MS69 pricing for, at some point I may just bite the bullet and crack them out and send them to NGC.

As for your coins, since they are almost no chance of MS69, I would not bother with NCS or NGC, just sell them as is.  The price for MS67, MS68, omp or raw is almost identical around $2000, the hazing can easily be removed by dealers in China before they package them up for master sets.  If the coin has MS69 potential then it would be worth paying $30 to get them NCS/NGC and sell for over $2300. 

Offline applenj

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 03:14:45 PM »
Thanks, Arif.  I certainly wouldn't make the same mistake again.  Back when I did this, I had no clue.  Now I'm trying to deal with the mess.  I appreciate the input, and will certainly factor it in when sorting out what I'm doing. 

Offline r3globe

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 04:34:51 PM »
I knew Arif were right when he talked about pcgs slabs. But this really settles it for me. I have seen crude fakes of Chinese coins slabbed by pcgs and I have seen horrific spotted coins in a pcgs 70 holder. Pcgs should be ashamed of themselves.

Offline aupanda

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Re: PCGS/NGC/NCS and Grade Inflation
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2018, 11:22:34 PM »
The conventional wisdom nowadays is to send vintage coins to PCGS and post-People’s Republic coins to NGC