Author Topic: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."  (Read 3301 times)

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Offline Birdman

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"Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« on: October 26, 2017, 07:39:43 AM »
"Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."

October 25, 2017.  Bloomberg.com

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-26/billionaires-fortunes-rise-to-6-trillion-with-asia-leading-way?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

"A combination of geopolitical stability in Greater China, rising Chinese real estate prices, infrastructure spending, the growing middle class and buoyant commodity prices all boosted wealth, the UBS report said, citing interviews with Asia’s richest people."

"One billionaire is created every three weeks in China: UBS"

This all looks favorable for disposable income and demand for alternative investments like Chinese coins.  On the surface, demand for master sets would seem to continue?  Anyone have information on how many orders are currently out for complete master sets of gold china pandas?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 08:06:55 AM »
The tide will eventually turn in favor of rare Chinese coins/medals, then we will see racing pigeon prices......

Offline bonke

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 11:54:01 AM »
I accept the fact that there are an increasing number of billionaires and millionaires in the PRC.  Very exciting, especially if you are one of these people with newly found wealth.  I struggle with the concept that this fact will make my collection of modern Chinese coins more valuable.  When I look at my collection, I see nothing that a very wealthy mainland Chinese person would want to purchase at a price which would be much more than I paid for it.

I accept the fact that business people in the PRC need favors from well-connected government officials to engage in business within the PRC or to obtain hard currency to engage in business elsewhere.  These business people may need to bestow a gift on the official or a family member to make it more likely that the favor will be granted.  One such gift has been a collection of gold panda coins from 1982 to the present, without regard to real quality, mint mark, variety, etc.  A gift which has an ascertainable value and which may be transported or stored/concealed easily.

I accept the fact that Xi Jin Ping has been annointed as the supreme leader of the PRC for the next 5 years and possibly far beyond.  During his first term, Xi Jin Ping aggressively attempted to arrest and incarcerate a multitude of government officials who accepted gifts.  Nothing in the media suggests Xi Jin Ping will alter his campaign against corruption.

What does all of this say for my coin collection?  I should buy things I like at prices I can afford without any likelihood of recovering the cost of my purchase in the future.

As a sidenote, in 2000, I attended an investors conference near Dulles airport (by Washington, D.C.).  I met the CEO for Sina.com.  He gave me a t-shirt and pair of chop sticks with the company logo.  He was a clever young man with a good feel for the tech "bubble" and the limitations on additional funding for his company.  His stock sold for around $4 a share.  Today, it sells for $106 per share.  Now, that was an investment to make in the PRC.

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 07:54:51 AM »
The world is going to gold/silver behind the scenes.    China/Russia have huge inventory of gold/silver.     The East are the new economy and gold will be the new money as it has been for thousands of years before the West propaganda that says gold has no value.     It has been a long haul as the Master Manipulators have continually knocked down bullion so the weak hands will sell to the bank strong hands.       We are close to the end of supply now w/ huge increasing demand.      We the collectors have got to be strong hands and believe in what we collect.     There is plenty of paper wealth or crypto wealth that has out paced gold/silver and MCC.    Gold/silver and Chinese money will soon take center stage..........
I too have passed on many stock opportunities among other paper instruments.    Gotta have real assets in hand......   Today may look bleak for bullion and Chinese MCC but not tomorrow or the near future...

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2017, 12:14:44 AM »
PetroYuan is coming.  A lot of bullish news for china, yet yuan isn't getting stronger.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-26/everything-you-wanted-know-about-petroyuan-were-afraid-ask

Offline wg

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2017, 05:10:54 AM »
( .. )

 When I look at my collection, I see nothing that a very wealthy mainland Chinese person would want to purchase at a price which would be much more than I paid for it.

( .. )


 N20

when i look at my collection, i see many coins that a very wealthy mainland chinese person would want to purchase at a price which would be much more than I paid for it.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 07:59:10 AM »
Bonke collects mostly medals and there is a book in China issued in 2013? about medals.     Not sure of quality.    One book on early year medals has potential to turn this market around like Mr Sun's book on circ coins.      I think Bonke has many that wealthy Chinese would want....   Surprising how many medal collectors there are but i like medals and coins.......

wg;  it would take the entire Chinese army to move your MCC back to the East IF you were to sell back to China.     You would be so wealthy you could run for the next US president.     Maybe you could buy up JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and other banks!    maybe.......

A strong Yuan is coming and the Petro Yuan will get it there in time.    First the West's manipulation of bullion must be removed and that is in progress behind the scenes.    Chinese money will rule and rare Chinese coins/medals will become a monster market.    Only question is the timing.....   Seems like Russian rare coins will go up too...

Offline bonke

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 09:50:34 AM »
WG

You are one of the fortunate collectors of modern Chinese coins.  You have a true "hoard" of coins.  Many people will want your coins when you decide to sell.  Your problem will be one of marketing.  You will have to slowly sell your collection to avoid negatively impacting prices.  A quick sale of your collection would be devastating for prices of modern Chinese coins.

I am not in your position.  I own many items for which I overpaid because I thought they were "interesting" and possibly rare.  I was buying silver goldfish sets before NGC was authenticating them and you were buying 1/2oz gold pandas in bulk.  You were smart and I was . . .

Mark Bonke

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 12:28:17 PM »
Talking as a collector I have found that the "buy what you like" aphorism is not just good enough for me anymore. I have bought enough duds to earn that costly education! There is a need for a fundamental analysis of the coin or medal in sight and cool headed decisions. I have learned to walk away from certain deals and the pain has become easier with the more I ignore no matter how beautiful they appear. For example, I walked away from the 35th anniversary gold panda coin because my potential cost of acquisition did not make sense to me.

The Chinese gold panda coin series (and silver too) still retain the characteristics that make them great collector pieces. They now have longevity to add to that. Furthermore, the Chinese Mint is not doing anything (yet!) to undermine the value of previous years' mintages.

Everyone has his or her own tried and tested or theoretical approach to investing in coins. I would believe that buying as close to spot as possible, is one of the options to consider if one understands that coin investment is highly speculative! To hit a jackpot you may need to be a serial (unsexy) coin accumulator!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2017, 07:13:35 AM »
WG

You are one of the fortunate collectors of modern Chinese coins.  You have a true "hoard" of coins.  Many people will want your coins when you decide to sell.  Your problem will be one of marketing.  You will have to slowly sell your collection to avoid negatively impacting prices.  A quick sale of your collection would be devastating for prices of modern Chinese coins.

I am not in your position.  I own many items for which I overpaid because I thought they were "interesting" and possibly rare.  I was buying silver goldfish sets before NGC was authenticating them and you were buying 1/2oz gold pandas in bulk.  You were smart and I was . . .

Mark Bonke



I have seen at least 3 different OMP 84 silver goldfish sets sell on ebay and maybe 2 graded in the last yr sell on ebay.     Have never seen so many for sale, usually 1 a yr maybe.       Sellers need cash as bullion is once again dropped way down to flush out the weak hands and this takes time.    The psychology of the Master Manipulaters is to encourage us to become weak hands and give up, never!       84 silver goldfish are a very good buy as the dies are hand engraved and famous designer, etc...       Other rare MCC are also listed to help w/ cash flow for sellers.    Even small gold pandas are low priced today....
Silver is still a 70 to 1 or less ratio w/ gold.    Miners say 10 to 1 ratio out of the ground.     Silver has huge upcoming demand for solar, medical, etc...     There will be a silver shortage w/ increased demand/price.       Many analysts say to buy silver over gold.      The Chinese market is weak for silver also due to the Coin Exchange collapse and mostly newer issue silver returning to the market.       We are in a temporary weak spot and have been for some time.       Have faith in the Chinese market and bullion too.     Matter of time for the market to turn around.      Some rare early year Chinese silver are cheap, so now is the time to buy.         Both gold and silver Chinese are great buys but the market is not saying that at this time so ignore the market and keep collecting..........

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2017, 11:09:23 AM »
Talking as a collector I have found that the "buy what you like" aphorism is not just good enough for me anymore. I have bought enough duds to earn that costly education!

Have you stopped liking those ounces? You sound like you're talking not as a collector but as an investor. Remember an investor buys to make a profit. A collector buys what he enjoys owning.

Offline ccl

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2017, 12:31:00 PM »
Liking something is not reason enough to buy it without considering the price and other factors.

There seem to be these rather romantic notions of what it means to be a collector but intelligent collectors will ensure they pay a fair price so in turn they can build more robust collections. Collecting smart means more money on hand and not losing money instantly at the point of purchase - the biggest mistake anyone can make in collecting or investing.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2017, 10:09:09 PM »
Liking something is not reason enough to buy it without considering the price and other factors.

There seem to be these rather romantic notions of what it means to be a collector but intelligent collectors will ensure they pay a fair price so in turn they can build more robust collections. Collecting smart means more money on hand and not losing money instantly at the point of purchase - the biggest mistake anyone can make in collecting or investing.

+1
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 08:07:12 AM »
Mark, check this out.    I saw the link on jsmineset   by  Visual Capitalist   "All of the world's money and markets in one visualization".       Seeing it is different then numbers being thrown around.       Once you see it, how can the West's paper money survive the unwinding of derivatives?       The wealth will flood to the gold rich East currency and Precious Metals w/ rare Chinese coins/medals leading the way.       As i stated earlier the world has not seen a change in financials from West to East so few can predict how it will unravel.     It will happen in our lifetime and possibly soon.     Owning the rarest PM of the East is a very wise choice regardless of coin or medal.......you can still buy Chinese 1/2 oz gold pandas today...

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 02:45:38 PM »
Here is the link, http://money.visualcapitalist.com/worlds-money-markets-one-visualization-2017/.  It is a great visualization except for the derivative graphic which is misleading and geared to confuse and panic the average reader.  Derivatives notional value can be large but its exposure tiny. 

For example:
$100K I can buy 78 oz of gold in the cash bullion
$100K I can control 2000 oz of gold in the futures market

When comparing the above two scenarios derivative contract looks very risky because it is levered 25 to 1 and this is the perception that gold bugs want you to see.  The reality is very different, very small percentage of the derivative market buys the future contract as shown above.  Instead a strategy could be to go long the December 2017 contract and short March 2018 contract, this spread trade would allow you to control 6000-8000 oz of gold with $100K, the risk of this trade is similar compared to 78 oz cash bullion trade, yet visual magnitude graph shows the derivative trade with 90 boxes (7000oz/78oz) vs 1 box for cash bullion trade. 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2017, 03:22:59 PM »
+1

CCL, of course I agree with your assessment. Being a relatively new member here (i.e., not having been around when KOT first started acquiring medals), you have not been privy to his change of strategy over time. I was trying to point out that he was a quite an idealistic collector early on and, through experience, he has realized that there's more to making purchases that just finding something you like. Although he may still call himself a collector, he may be acting more like an investor these days. In truth, he and I don't communicate much through private message so I am assuming this maturation based on his public posts.

Sorry, this is very of topic! Done now :)

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 08:28:08 AM »
Here is the link, http://money.visualcapitalist.com/worlds-money-markets-one-visualization-2017/.  It is a great visualization except for the derivative graphic which is misleading and geared to confuse and panic the average reader.  Derivatives notional value can be large but its exposure tiny. 

For example:
$100K I can buy 78 oz of gold in the cash bullion
$100K I can control 2000 oz of gold in the futures market

When comparing the above two scenarios derivative contract looks very risky because it is levered 25 to 1 and this is the perception that gold bugs want you to see.  The reality is very different, very small percentage of the derivative market buys the future contract as shown above.  Instead a strategy could be to go long the December 2017 contract and short March 2018 contract, this spread trade would allow you to control 6000-8000 oz of gold with $100K, the risk of this trade is similar compared to 78 oz cash bullion trade, yet visual magnitude graph shows the derivative trade with 90 boxes (7000oz/78oz) vs 1 box for cash bullion trade. 




Don't underestimate the destructive power of derivatives or weapons of financial destruction.    Many, many articles on derivatives...

You mentioned lack of gold panda supply.     You sell a lot of gold pandas!      Could you give more details on low gold panda supply and other MCC?.......

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 09:32:05 AM »
Supply from strong hands is very low simply, because prices are not rising, nobody wants to sell something they know they can't replace. 

A big glut of coins came out April-June time period due to gold sheet, many dealers called old customers and brought new supply to market which they had previously viewed as bullion.   That was great time to buy or trade out for higher quality numismatic coins for many of us, I sold common date proof sets so I could own a few more 1/2s.  Now most of the supply in the US is exhausted and it is hard to find  much of anything in high quality (condition and rarity).  There is tons of bullion coins floating around, but those have no buyers even at few percent over melt. 

October-December mainland dealers subscribe to new coin issues, they have to prepay to secure orders, orders arrive in November-January, they sell and use the proceeds to buy back dated material January-April.  It is a cycle that repeats itself over and over.   The other challenge is between Thanksgiving and new years it is risky to ship in the US, packages seems to get lost due to high volume, so I typically sell very little during that time.  I tell all my customers if they want to sell they must do it before Nov 15.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 10:22:02 AM »
CCL, of course I agree with your assessment. Being a relatively new member here (i.e., not having been around when KOT first started acquiring medals), you have not been privy to his change of strategy over time. I was trying to point out that he was a quite an idealistic collector early on and, through experience, he has realized that there's more to making purchases that just finding something you like. Although he may still call himself a collector, he may be acting more like an investor these days. In truth, he and I don't communicate much through private message so I am assuming this maturation based on his public posts.

Sorry, this is very of topic! Done now :)

People have argued themselves until they were blue in the face about who was a collector and who was an investor. I believe the lines are blurred because both are in search of value. It may turn out that both terms describe the same individual with the difference being the intensity of the drive for value. This is not different from other areas of collection such as art and wine. An astute collector is an investor because he tries to avoid collecting items that depreciate in value. However, he or she may from time to time splurge on items they KNOW may not rise in value.

I bought bullion in the late 1990s as a SHTF strategy. Eventually it turned into an accidentally nice investment!

When I started collecting MCC in recent years I bought coins initially before including medals. Now I collect both. I also tried to sell some and the experience added immensely to my growth as a collector. This was in addition to every other thing I learnt in this forum and elsewhere. I am still learning and may never know all there is to the hobby (or business). But the insight I have now is that it is not enough that you like a coin or medal; being a “Collector” does not absolve an individual from routinely making purchases that don’t hold or increase their value. You become a better collector with time and experience, which probably means that your collection has now become an investment with an increased chance of yielding more cash than was spent in their acquisition if they were sold in future.

Yes I am growing under your very eyes!  N17
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 10:35:31 AM »
KOT you are learning as you go and improving in this small market.     I will never invest in rare wine after 60 minutes did a show on fake wines w/ super high prices.      Gambling on wine then finding out it is a fake will make any investor/collector whine.....
More are buying medals now so maybe they will become relevant and opinions will change.   Time will tell.    Keep at it, you are getting ahead..

Arif;    November to January is post office rip off months.    I have lost $ thousands to post office thieves.     As stated earlier i contacted the FBI twice and the postal inspector many times w/ zero results.      Temporary post office employees during Holiday season are the problem and then the postal inspectors said the people have no clue how much mail is stolen in the US.     Why no post office accountability?    Cameras?       Maybe if the seller requests and pays for registered/insured it will be safe to mail.....
Maybe the dealers are sitting on the best MCC?    Those that need cash are selling rarely seen MCC like 84 silver goldfish.       I see many new issue, copper or brass, etc... and fewer early year MCC in gold/silver.......

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 02:05:53 PM »
I sure am learning a lot reading these posts.  Keep on trying makes many valid points.  Thanks for the tips to keep in mind when buying coins or medals. 
And I see there is a new medal called 'coin of the year'.  Does anyone really buy these private issued medals?  They seem to be coming out every day.  Do they increase in value over time?  Does anyone have historical evidence on what happens to the price of these privately sponsored medals?  Is it a good investment longer term (10 plus years)? All these different types of pandas coming out can't be good for the market, can they? Curious.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 03:43:31 PM »
The future is unknown, collectingcoins. I have not purchased a medal since 2013, and never a private mint medal, and I do not intend to do so. I can think of many better uses for that money, which have (IMO) greater chances to produce a positive ROI for me,  or greater levels of immediate happiness.

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2017, 06:05:47 PM »
There are enough medals coming from official mints that I don't even consider private medals as a viable item to collect, IMO they are only worth 90% of melt (bid) and 105% of melt (ask) at most.  They can be produced in unlimited quantity and variations with no oversight.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 07:54:32 PM »
Isn't it best to stick with coins, and collectible coins verses show medals and generic medals?  That's the thought I've been taking away from reading as much as I can from this wonderful site.  I don't understand the difference between official mints and private mints.  Can someone please explain?  Can anyone sponsor a medal at either an official mint or private?  What makes the medal more appealing at the official mint verses the private mint?  I'm not sure I understand the comment about '90% of melt (bid) and 105% (ask) at most.'  Can someone give an example?  Sorry for the stupid questions.  I'm not too interested in medals. I have seen some pretty ones pop up on eBay, but I've stayed away.  I saw someone reference what is called a Garden Panda and this new one called coin of the year Panda.  They look interesting, but based on what I read from KeyDate, it is not a good idea to even consider these.  The message seems pretty clear to me, stay away from show medals (recent) and all other medals, especially those minted at a private mint. Is there a thread that explains the difference between an official and private mint and why one is better than the other? I need stick with coins, which I've been doing.  I've been buy gold pandas, and I'm not disappointed. I'm actually quite happy.  Although I may be disappointed if and when I send them off to a grading service.  There may be tears of sadness. lol. 

Offline ccl

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 08:13:49 PM »
yes

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Asia Now Has More Billionaires Than the U.S."
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2017, 08:53:42 AM »
As stated earlier i love medals and coins.      Not all early medals are trash even from private mints.     Early official issue panda medals are worth collecting.      Feng Yunming's  National Arts and Crafts semi official medals will have value when a publication comes out as he is the Grandfather of medals.      A newer private mint are cherished like the 2012?  Nine Sons of Dragon large silvers.    I never see them on ebay.     It is no longer black and white of coins and medals but some are in a grey area and worth owning.   The artist is important.....   
Due to the flood of new issue medals (I like them all but own none) the market is diluted and will get worse.     The new issue medals i like are the Color Silver Lunars from Prestige Gold Panda sets 03 to 12?     New issue medals will bring attention to the early issue medals.       It is always good to have a mix of medals and coins.....
Peter says there are now 5 Official Mints.    Nanjing is 4th and i cannot recall the name of 5th.     I know there is a lot of disagreement w/ my opinion but early issue medals that have relevance are very undervalued.     The mintage of early issue medals is very low compared to coins.     For example the HK Expo silver pandas have mostly 1,000 planned mint w/ one at 1,500 and one at 2,000 mint.....