Author Topic: Chinese Error Coins & Medals  (Read 3502 times)

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Offline bonke

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Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« on: August 30, 2017, 10:12:58 PM »
The third party grading services (NGC & PCGS) have started encapsulating more and more modern Chinese coins & medals with error designations.  If you own one of these coins or medals and wish to share pictures with the coin forum, it would certainly be interesting (from my perspective) and could be helpful when evaluating coins or medals in original mint packaging or removed from this packaging.  Often, I ask myself whether the "problem" seen on a coin or medal is a mint error or caused by mishandling after production.  As an example, is the "problem" in the field a scratch or a strike-thru wire.

It may be helpful to have pictures and descriptions under one topic heading for future research by coin forum members.

Mark Bonke

Online Mirkkanen

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 12:26:55 AM »
Good idea, Mark. I don't own any errors, but I bet many here do.

Offline bonke

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 10:48:59 AM »
Over the past several years, I have seen error coins listed on Ebay with high Buy-It-Now prices.  I have assumed modern Chinese coins and medals with errors were rare.  We all know about the 1985 94th ANA silver medal with the English phrase below the Great Wall struck in reverse (mirror image) or the 1988 Basel gold medal with a "Pt" platinum designation.  These are early production errors which occurred as the dies were prepared.  These are rare because the planned mintage was low and the actual mintage or surviving mintage was even lower.  A different category of errors occurs when the coin or medal is struck.  At the ANA show in Denver, I saw several modern Chinese gold panda coins with "Strike Thru" error designations.  Are these rare?  I wonder if rotated die errors are rare or common.  I wonder if off-center strikes are rare or common.  I wonder whether double die errors are rare or common.  Possibly, with descriptions and pictures, I will be able to identify a particular error and get a sense, over time, as to whether it is rare or common.

Mark Bonke

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 01:45:36 PM »
1983 1 Fen, NGC MS 67, Double struck, first struck off center

http://www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=auction&skip=1&action=detail&aid=52224 (RMB 123,200 = US$ 1,915)

Regular 1983 1 Fen MS 67 is about $15.

Here is the link to the pictures.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2618.2385 (Reply# 2391)

Offline Birdman

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 02:20:35 PM »
This thread has some photos of rotated die errors

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8656.msg56466#msg56466

Offline bonke

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 02:56:41 PM »
Thanks for the links to these prior discussions.  I remember seeing these posts about a rotated die coin and a double struck coin.  Still, I doubt if I ever could have found the information without your help.

Mark Bonke

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 03:04:13 PM »
I have had 3 mint errors from all my submissions.  To me it seems reasonable to get about $500 spread to non-error coin. 
 
1989P 1/2 sold stuck thru PF68 sold for $1200 net, $400 premium to PF68
1989   1/2 LD struck thru PF69 asking $2150, $700 premium to PF69 - been offered $2000 decided to keep it until I get more
1990P 1/20 sold stuck thru PF69 sold for $700 net, $500 premium to PF69

I tired to posting pics, but they are too big.

Offline bonke

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 04:17:59 PM »
Arif

Were these coins struck thru wire, cloth or something else?

I know you have submitted an enormous number of gold panda coins over the past 10 years.  If you have only received 3 mint errors from all of these submissions, they must be very, very rare.  I am surprised you did not charge more for these error coins.

Mark Bonke

Online ccl

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 07:43:09 PM »
Courtesy of Chinese Coins Live....

an excel file that contains 32 examples of these error coins.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 09:12:12 PM »
This is an area that I have devoted much time to.  My collection focuses on various varieties or errors that I find interesting.  Generally speaking for me strike thru or ejection doubling is an error caused by the minting process whereas double dies, for example, are true die errors.  I don't place a lot of value on strike thru or ejection doubling.  Here is a short list that I find intriguing:

1996 silver unicorn no beard
1998 silver panda quadruple die version 1 and 2
1993 silver proof double die
1994 gold unicorn 1/20 double die
2001d gold panda 1/4 ounce missing foot
1997 silver unicorn no curl
1987 gold panda missing mint mark
1992 large date high 2

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 09:20:20 PM »
It looked like debris on the coin that was struck thru. You can go to my ebay store and look at completed items to see pictures. 

I am not a fan of mint errors, I prefer owning coins that look perfect, that is why I sell them at reasonable prices.

What I do like to collect is varities, like 1993 1/20oz serif 1 and normal 1.

Offline bonke

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 12:10:18 PM »
Arif

Your most recent comment reminded me of a past purchase from you at an ANA coin show in Portland, Oregon.  Three versions of the 1996 10y bimetal panda.  The panda on each coin has distinctly different eyes.  I do not know if these differences are errors or varieties.  I do remember that the grading services have not recognized these as either an error or a variety.

Mark Bonke

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 03:12:35 PM »
Mark,
Thank you for this great topic.

Another possible type of "error coins" to consider may be die cracks.  Die cracks are common in the Imperial and Republic coins, but relatively hard to find in MCC, especially a large die crack.  This is the biggest die crack I'm aware of.  I like to see other examples. 

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10287.0

Offline bonke

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 12:10:19 PM »
Die Cracks!  Double Dies!  Rotated Dies!  Strike Thru wire, cloth, etc!  Off-center strikes!  Mirror image descriptions (in English)!  Wrong metal descriptions!  Missing collars!  Clashed dies! The list of potential errors goes on and on.  And, personally, as a collector, I find all of these "problems" to be very interesting.  I hope this topic survives so that I may visit it and use the information to improve my knowledge of these "problems" which occur during the production of modern or old Chinese coins.

Mark Bonke

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 02:13:37 AM »
Doubled die on one of the Jianzhen brass medals.

But generally speaking, commemorative coins are subject to much more careful QA inspections. Error coins are relatively few. They are pretty common among circulating coins.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 10:45:38 AM »
Possible die crack or strike thru on forehead

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
Jean 7th issue article calls the 87 missing mint mark coins doubtful version - page 58.   2001 small D discussed on same page as a fantasy coin.
https://issuu.com/jeandigitala1/docs/the_seventh_issue_of_jean

1987 missing mint mark coin auctioned for $550, down 80% from last sale.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/54838909_china-1987-panda-5-yuan-ngc-pf69-ultra-cameo


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2017, 06:33:31 PM »
Maybe I should ask NGC for a refund N18

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2017, 06:38:54 PM »
That is an interesting question, when does the guaranty kick in.  The coin is in a grey zone, no proof it is real, no proof it is fake, caught in the middle of being doubtful.

Let's say they buy you out at $1500, if in 10 years the coin is worth $200 because it considered a fantasy coin you will be happy?  How about if the coin turns out to be real and becomes $10,000.  There is a lot to consider before getting bought out.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2017, 07:03:06 PM »
True....there seems to be a lot of misdirection with various varieties these days and my reliance is not only on NGC but also from other collectors... which have sourced no mint marks directly from former Mint employees...just like the 1992 high 2 I have no issue waiting this out for 10 plus years until the final verdict is in.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2017, 09:17:52 PM »
Jean 7th issue article calls the 87 missing mint mark coins doubtful version - page 58.   2001 small D discussed on same page as a fantasy coin.
https://issuu.com/jeandigitala1/docs/the_seventh_issue_of_jean

1987 missing mint mark coin auctioned for $550, down 80% from last sale.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/54838909_china-1987-panda-5-yuan-ngc-pf69-ultra-cameo



The article refers to a 1/10 missing mint mark circulating in the market for some time.  Truth be known there is only one 1/10 missing mint mark and it has not been to market once.  In fact I know the owner.  Not sure what the article is referring to.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2017, 10:50:33 PM »
I have never read jean prior today or know nothing about their expertise related to modern coins, someone alerted me about the article to thank me for advising them to not buy the missing mint mark coin a while back. 

It is always good to question unknowns sources, because in this industry there is often strong bias, motives and manipulation by certains authors.   Even I have a bias, if I write a book about gold panda coin buyer's guide, it would be 80% dedicated to 1/2oz coins, which is similar to percentage of my collection that is 1/2oz.  I always laugh every time someone shows me a book on 100 top xyz coins, my first thought is the author hoards certain coins and then writes about them to increase their marketability for personal benefit.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 02:44:53 PM »
Jean 7th issue article calls the 87 missing mint mark coins doubtful version - page 58.   2001 small D discussed on same page as a fantasy coin.
https://issuu.com/jeandigitala1/docs/the_seventh_issue_of_jean

1987 missing mint mark coin auctioned for $550, down 80% from last sale.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/54838909_china-1987-panda-5-yuan-ngc-pf69-ultra-cameo


True....there seems to be a lot of misdirection with various varieties these days and my reliance is not only on NGC but also from other collectors... which have sourced no mint marks directly from former Mint employees...just like the 1992 high 2 I have no issue waiting this out for 10 plus years until the final verdict is in.

This is the English translation of article by Zhao Yan Sheng (赵燕生) which I posted previously.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=13558.0

IMO, the author’s statement of proof 1987 1/10 oz. gold panda as “doubtful version” is correct assessment, since this coin was well-made and the lack of documentation was understandable for period prior to 2000. 1987 1/20 oz. proof gold panda also has missing P version, but did not mentioned in this article. The documentation was well-kept after 2000, especially at Shenzhen Mint, an ISO certified new plant. This Mint started its operation in 1996 and certified in 1997. If there was a master die for 2001 SD, it should have record to show it.   Based on my examination of design of 2001 SD, I also concluded this well- made coin had a design of 2002 reverse with added D and 2001 obverse.

With respect to 1992 1/10 and 1/20 oz. gold panda high 2, IMO, they are “highly doubtful version”. These two coins shown up in the market place also in a very strange way, similar to 2001 SD, from an exclusive source. NGC certified three pairs of these coins in three separated submissions. The odd is just too small to have any collector to own both 1/10 and 1/20 oz. high 2 version. In addition, all high 2 coins are not well-made, have some surface defects, extra material next to the 1/10 and 1/20 and lines are thicker.
 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7609.0


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 07:45:17 PM »
It's easy to say a coin is doubtful given the lack of documentation as you state.  But a coin can just as easily be genuine given that same lack of documentation.  Trial strikes are not uncommon in modern china coins and several do exist for circulating coins;

Mint officials perform a trial strike in order to test the dies, before the production run begins. The coins obtained from these strikes are sometimes used for presentation purposes, or more often just recycled by the mint. Occasionally, a few of these coins may make their way into the hands of collectors.

Modern Chinese trial strikes are usually made on a metal blank similar to the one which will be used for the production coins. Sometimes trial strikes are made on blanks of a different metal composition.

Chinese trial strikes are unique in that they always have a trial stamp -- a two-character Chinese inscription (see photos above). These two characters literally mean ‘sample coin’.

Mintage figures are not available for the earlier, pre-1989, trial strikes, however there were possibly less than 100 produced for each coin type.  From 1989 onwards, the Chinese mint began producing trial strikes in larger numbers, up to 18,000 pieces per design, for promotional purposes. These uncirculated coins were distributed in small plastic display holders of various designs. In several years, there were also proof trial strikes minted.

Numismatists in China believe that many of the trial strike pieces ended up in general circulation, as the actual availability does not match the supposed supply. Thus, the prices paid for good quality examples can be quite high.

In my opinion, the collecting of high-grade examples could be a very interesting and worthwhile specialty for the adventuresome numismatist.

But for pandas how many trial strikes have we seen....maybe one or two only related to the original 1982 design, but do more exist....I would think so.

Also regarding 1992 one important aspect for the high 2 was that there was a "major" design change you may or may not be aware of.  On the obverse ( temple of heaven) side an interior circle around the heaven was addded.  This caused a major design change for the date which went from horizontal to circular.  IMHO this probably caused design issues that resulted in various styles of dates to be experimented with. 

If one was to counterfeit a coin why only make a handful of coins
, in gold no less, and hope the market accepts that coin as rare....this theory makes absolutely no sense.  It would be more fortuitous to counterfeit a popular expensive coin, not something obscure.


Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 07:01:00 AM »
How silly would NGC look now if they got 1987 and 1992 wrong;

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6159/ngc-anniversary-medal/


Offline pandamonium

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 07:34:00 AM »
NGC 30th Anniversary is not available outside of China......

Offline GoldenLord

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Re: Chinese Error Coins & Medals
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2017, 01:38:17 PM »
Mother's Day Panda 2017 Struck Thru