Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product

[geoxxx]

I think that at this point we have to look at the facts:

1) There is someone, that few people may know, in China that says that the coins may be from a private mint.
Perhaps it is true...perhaps not.
on the other hand
2) NGC and PCGS have certified the coins as genuine.

This is the debate.
Who you choose to believe is your choice.

I think it is natural that those who own the coin are trying to protect its authenticity.  Anyone who owns any rare coin would probably do the same.

I also think that facts are important and that rumour and wishful thinking on any side can seriously harm the Chinese coin market which is already riddled with fakes and counterfeits.

Let us all be calm and careful and discuss the facts with respect and understanding.

[bonke]

As a collector, I have been following this discussion with a level of concern. 

In December of 2012, I purchased a 2001 (small D) silver panda from one of the coin forum members.  I sent it to NGC for authentication, grading and encapsulation.  The coin was authenticated by NGC and graded a 69.  I added it to my permanent collection.  My basis in the coin is $572.  In contrast, the 2001 silver panda in my collection (without a large or small D) (graded a 69) has a basis of $64.39.  I paid $500+ extra to own a potentially rare silver panda.

In the past, I have read the discussions about 1984 silver pagodas, 1984 silver goldfish, etc.  Experts tell us whether these were official Mint products, private Mint products, counterfeit, etc.  Third party grading services decide whether to grade these coins or medals based upon best available information and decide how to describe these coins or medals on their labels.

If you are an investor, these discussions are very important.  If you are a dealer, you are turning over your inventory quickly, capturing a quick profit and moving on to the next opportunity.  As a collector, these discussions are a mere distraction.  I am careful to limit the level of distraction so that the discussion does not deter me from pursuing my hobby.  If the distraction becomes too great, I sell the item, recognize the loss and again move on.

Mark Bonke

[twong]

total hogwash ..Ngc recognizes new variety's on their own all the time ....  Zhao is mistaken and as anyone knows and realizes mint records are far from accurate look at all the revisions to publish mintage numbers are proof of that . And mints are not putting coins in their OMP that they didnt produce .. AND ONCE again since I directly bought my coins from a person who owed them and held them in a safe since 2003  this is an undisputable fact  and the dealer that sold them to silverstar got his from the same source and pretty much all the coins graded at and around the time of discovery where from that same safe .....     

Jc, by saying that you and the dealer (thincat I assume) that sold to silverstar got the coins from same source I think doesn't contradict what the author said that the coins were exclusive from one source.

[jc888888888]

 Time will tell my bet is on NGC   I know where the coinS  I purchased and  Own  came from  and I know for a fact that they are legitimate no one holds coins in the safe for a decade then pulls them out and sells them for $70 or so a piece to perpetuate a fraud

[KeepOnTrying!]

Hi,
would you please cool down a bit. I am just following this discussion at the sideline (NO financial interests in this topic). poconopenn is highly respected for his knowledge ---> HIGHLY respected. He never is emotional, but super helpful. Your words are not respectful.

Greetings,
wittu

wittu +1 with

It is imperative that we remain civil to each other no matter how difficult a discussion may be.

Best wishes.

[silverstar1]

Silverstar1,

Please provide information about you successful efforts in obtaining the recognizing of small D from NGC. What type of documents required to convince NGC to recognize the new variety? How long to take NGC  to accept your request? Your help to clarify the process will be very appreciated.

The small D version was discovered in later 2012. Prior to December 2012, they were 13 small D graded as regular D by NGC. They are 2780136-046, -047, 2779181-019 and 2780533-021-030. Based on the Invoice#, they were graded not too long before your 8 coins being graded as small D.

There are clear evidence to suggest that 2001-D gold panda has high D and low D versions in all denominations. Members of CCF had shown data that NGC had graded those varieties as regular 2001 D many years before 2012. The ratio of high D and low D is about 3 to 1. To this date, NGC has not recognized those varieties.

Owners of 2001 small D,

It is time for you to take proactive action. Since both NGC and PCGS have money-back guarantee, you can request both companies to review this coin’s authenticity with a link of this thread. This will force NGC and PCGS to contact the author of this article and resolve the issue. If this coin is not genuine, you will be compensated by NGC or PCGS, or if this coin is genuine, the price will go up in the future.

JC888.... is correct as I have also stated a few times , I sent these coins to NGC as regular 2001d pandas not realizing the small d . I imagine when they were looked at by NGC they noticed the smaller d compared to the regular version and I would think with all the counterfeits sent to them they heavily scrutinized the coin and attributed the variety. I dont know if it used to be different but I have had quite a few coins come back with a variety attribution that I did not request so it is definitely not true that the customer has to request the variety designation.

[silverstar1]

Just to add a few facts that have already been stated.  The coins are solid silver coins, they are pretty much identical to the regular 2001 d coins, They were in sealed Shenzhen  mint packaging and capsules also identical with the regular 2001 d pandas, they were sold as regular 2001 d pandas (no profit motivation for fake or fantasy coins) , and they were graded and authenticated by NGC and PCGS the most reputable grading companies in the world.
So far I have not seen one shred of evidence that these are anything but a genuine mint product . I have read the translation of Mr. zhou's article and honestly it reads like a joke, it may be just the translation because I do not read or speak any Chinese languages . To me it appears Mr . Zhou has an agenda and I am not sure why , possibly he is on a fishing expedition. I dont know of Mr zhou so I will give the benefit of the doubt on his credentials but cant quite see why he is ignoring the actual facts and writing articles like this with no actual facts himself to back this up.
My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

 

[silverstar1]

On another note , does anyone know when the last time any bulk submission of these 2001 small d silver pandas were graded by either NGC or PCGS ? just curious

[jc888888888]

Just to add a few facts that have already been stated.  The coins are solid silver coins, they are pretty much identical to the regular 2001 d coins, They were in sealed Shenzhen  mint packaging and capsules also identical with the regular 2001 d pandas, they were sold as regular 2001 d pandas (no profit motivation for fake or fantasy coins) , and they were graded and authenticated by NGC and PCGS the most reputable grading companies in the world.
So far I have not seen one shred of evidence that these are anything but a genuine mint product . I have read the translation of Mr. zhou's article and honestly it reads like a joke, it may be just the translation because I do not read or speak any Chinese languages . To me it appears Mr . Zhou has an agenda and I am not sure why , possibly he is on a fishing expedition. I dont know of Mr zhou so I will give the benefit of the doubt on his credentials but cant quite see why he is ignoring the actual facts and writing articles like this with no actual facts himself to back this up.
My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

 

+11111 Exactly what I have been saying .....In my life experience anyone who makes a statement Like Mr. Zhou has without ONE minuscule shred of evidence offered . One can assume one of two things  1) they have an agenda or ulterior motive. 2) or they are simply stupid or delusional  ,pick which one you like best.
now AS FAR AS RESPECT GOES : I have the utmost respect for the author of this thread ...what I am surprised at is the title of this thread which clearly states the coin is not genuine ,the author know better than to start a thread like that WITHOUT one shred of evidence to back it up .On the other hand the evidence presented proving otherwise is at least undeniable. It is damaging to our hobby and author should know better than to keep trying to advance an agenda.
Here are some facts for you : When you look at the population reports of both NGC and PCGS and you take into account that  this coin was found in 2 hoard,s  at 2 different times (look at grading dates:)  I know this as fact ...both times from the same area of China the second time by a coin dealer  . The second Hoard the discoverer knew what he had .And you take into account the second hoard was in identical 10 ct OMP.  NOW it is way more than reasonable to assume more than 90% of all the coins ever found to date have been graded  I know this to be a solid estimate. It is also very reasonable to assume that the COIN world has scoured the world looking for more of these coins . Can more show up?  Absolutely. Have they?? no....grading has stopped:) ADD up the submissions Take into account 1 to 3% being crossed over back and forth ( I actually crossed 2 coins from NGC to PCGS for a customer who wanted PCGS ) and I am sure some have been crossed the other way.  So when you add up all those submitted coins the way it looks to me:) the 2001 small D might possibly and the way it looks to me most probably be the rarest  Panda ever produced by the China Mint.Why was it produced ?????? that is the mystery worth exploring!

[jc888888888]

Lets move this thread in another direction ....  For all the research buffs on the forum ..The second hoard was found later by a coin dealer in Beijing  he was smart :)(THIS WAS NOT THE DEALER INVOLVED WITH THE FIRST HOARD)  he didnt want to crash the market for what he just found ..... So he started grading them a few at a time ,First he started grading at PCGS   WHY PCGS  because at that time the perception was PCGS was more lenient.... look at all the 70,s :) but he quickly found out NGC coins where worth more .......... look at the corresponding flurry of grading all happening much later than the first hoard....... He spread the coins around some of this second hoard did wind up in the hands of the first dealer who was involved in hoard #1 .....he put them up on e bay but did not discover them (disclosure I bought 3 or 4 coins from him from the second hoard)....Virtually none of  hoard #2 was sold in OMP AS DEALER # 2 wanted too much money for them ...... study the grading submissions  THEY tell an interesting story :) ... all of the coins currently on e bay I believe to be from hoard#2 ....  if you add up all the coins graded by both services in the second 4 to 6 month time frame that is the second hoard:)   

[KeepOnTrying!]

Does the Mint have any Library copies of this coin or don't they do so for coins they usually Mint? I hear mints normally keep copies of coins and other intermediate minting materials and trial strikes etc. Or not in every case? Thanks.

[silverstar1]

Lets move this thread in another direction ....  For all the research buffs on the forum ..The second hoard was found later by a coin dealer in Beijing  he was smart :)(THIS WAS NOT THE DEALER INVOLVED WITH THE FIRST HOARD)  he didnt want to crash the market for what he just found ..... So he started grading them a few at a time ,First he started grading at PCGS   WHY PCGS  because at that time the perception was PCGS was more lenient.... look at all the 70,s :) but he quickly found out NGC coins where worth more .......... look at the corresponding flurry of grading all happening much later than the first hoard....... He spread the coins around some of this second hoard did wind up in the hands of the first dealer who was involved in hoard #1 .....he put them up on e bay but did not discover them (disclosure I bought 3 or 4 coins from him from the second hoard)....Virtually none of  hoard #2 was sold in OMP AS DEALER # 2 wanted too much money for them ...... study the grading submissions  THEY tell an interesting story :) ... all of the coins currently on e bay I believe to be from hoard#2 ....  if you add up all the coins graded by both services in the second 4 to 6 month time frame that is the second hoard:)   

Great post ! This is some good information and I was not aware of some of the details on the second hoard and if it was a separate hoard or still from the original source, I would like to see this move more in this direction too .  I have no doubt that these coins are a genuine mint product but am very interested in any info as to why they were minted in the first place , I would love to see a thread more along the lines of " The elusive 2001 small D silver pandas and the mysteries surrounding their origin "  . Unfortunately I am not sure there will be much more forthcoming on the subject , if there is someone that knows the truth about it they are not talking that I know of.

[silverstar1]

Does the Mint have any Library copies of this coin or don't they do so for coins they usually Mint? I hear mints normally keep copies of coins and other intermediate minting materials and trial strikes etc. Or not in every case? Thanks.

Good question ! I dont know if the Chinese mints keep anything like this but if they do I doubt they would keep all the different varieties. Maybe someone here can answer that. I personally like the mystery of the variety coins (bold varieties at least) , it makes them fun coins to collect and study.

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

I think there is a misconception that this thread started some controversy about the authenticity of the small D coin, the reality is the controversy started in 2012 and is common knowledge among the mainland dealers.

If you look at the auction records for this coin from 2014-2016, 21 publicly recorded transactions occurred, 18 were in the US and 3 were in China, this indicates to me the coin is highly collectible in the US, but not in China.  This is a red flag to me considering the coin originated in China and even when it became known of its existence, the second hoard dealer choose to sell to the US, rather than mainland China. 

I am in no way implying that I think the coin is not genuine (I really don't know, I wasn't at the mint in 2001), I am just saying there has been controversy surrounding the coin for many years China and this thread just started the controversy in the US. 

[Kelvin C]

This is a red flag to me considering the coin originated in China and even when it became known of its existence, the second hoard dealer choose to sell to the US, rather than mainland China.

However, there are plenty of 2001 Silver Pandas with D in China. It has not been a popular coin to collect there due to its similar to 02. Overseas collectors are more likely to buy sheets of D's. Look at the 2007 25th anniversary sets. They didn't even both to included the two coins just merge as one for 2001-02. Back then Chinese dealers are not so interested in varieties anyway. (Some are but most not) It is well known that westerners are willing to pay slightly more so why not sell overseas if have the avenue.

Further not all went overseas as others have been purchased in China.

You have wrote before about Master collectors not focusing on varieties they just want the coins.