Author Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product  (Read 27721 times)

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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2017, 02:29:10 PM »
I like to comment on the title of this thread that several members are unhappy with:  Yes, the statement is harsh & definitive, but it is the English summary of the Chinese article that poconopenn referenced to in the original post.  I appreciate the fact that poconopenn takes the time to read coin forums in China and posts relevant topics on CCF.   I read the Chinese article and IMO the article did not provide sufficient details to support the author's harsh, definitive conclusion.    However, I wouldn't dismissed it out of hand because based on the readers feedback, it is not an unpopular sentiments in China toward the 2001 small D.  At the time its discovery the Chinese collectors did not place high value in varieties so sheets and sheets of small D were sold to high bidders oversea.  Now the Chinese collectors find small D scarce and expensive and no one in China seems to have the first hand knowledge of its discovery, so questions are raised about its authenticity.

In fact, the people with first hand knowledge of the small D's discovery are members of CCF.  The discovery was well documented here.  We are in better position to inform the collectors in China about the pedigree of this variety and we should.   We should also examine the coin in great details and document our findings.  Lets show our collector friends in China how we address the issues of authenticity through detailed studies and careful documentations.

Last point, the vast majority of 2001 small D are certified by NGC and PCGS.  NGC/PCGS certifications are not just opinions of competent experts, they also carry a money-back guarantee.  There are no downside to asking critical questions and examining the coin in great details--if it is proven to be a fake, we can get our money back, and if it clears away the rumors and doubts, then the price of the coin will only go up.  I'm looking forward to work with poconopenn on technical investigations of the small D.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »
I like to comment on the title of this thread that several members are unhappy with:  Yes, the statement is harsh & definitive, but it is the English summary of the Chinese article that poconopenn referenced to in the original post.  I appreciate the fact that poconopenn takes the time to read coin forums in China and posts relevant topics on CCF.   I read the Chinese article and IMO the article did not provide sufficient details to support the author's harsh, definitive conclusion.    However, I wouldn't dismissed it out of hand because based on the readers feedback, it is not an unpopular sentiments in China toward the 2001 small D.  At the time its discovery the Chinese collectors did not place high value in varieties so sheets and sheets of small D were sold to high bidders oversea.  Now the Chinese collectors find small D scarce and expensive and no one in China seems to have the first hand knowledge of its discovery, so questions are raised about its authenticity.

In fact, the people with first hand knowledge of the small D's discovery are members of CCF.  The discovery was well documented here.  We are in better position to inform the collectors in China about the pedigree of this variety and we should.   We should also examine the coin in great details and document our findings.  Lets show our collector friends in China how we address the issues of authenticity through detailed studies and careful documentations.

Last point, the vast majority of 2001 small D are certified by NGC and PCGS.  NGC/PCGS certifications are not just opinions of competent experts, they also carry a money-back guarantee.  There are no downside to asking critical questions and examining the coin in great details--if it is proven to be a fake, we can get our money back, and if it clears away the rumors and doubts, then the price of the coin will only go up.  I'm looking forward to work with poconopenn on technical investigations of the small D.

SANDAC,  that's a very fair and accurate assessment of this dubious situation - something I can totally agree with. +1

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »
There are three areas of mirrored recessed texts on the panda side, the "D", "10 yuan" and Ag .999".  My camera is not absolutely level w.r.t. to the coin so I need to focus each area separately.  Here are the close up of the recessed texts of NGC3685786-032, large D.  The focus is on the bottom mirrored surface.  The "blisters" are particularly noticeable on the "10 yuan" and can be found on "D" and to a lesser extend on "Ag .999".  Please note the same size blisters are also present all over the rest of the coin, particularly noticeable above the "yuan" character.   No such blisters are present on the temple size of the large D.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2017, 04:04:15 PM »
Here are the same 3 areas of small D, NGC3764927-005.  The mirrored bottoms are quite smooth for all three areas.  There are tiny speckles present in all three areas but discernible only with high magnification and I'm not able to photograph them clearly.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2017, 04:25:39 PM »
SANDAC,

Sorry, I did not post clearly about the location of mirror surface needed to be examined. I am looking for the mirror surface at the temple side.

I noticed the possible striations on the temple side for SD, but not LD, as attached pictures. I need confirmation from you.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2017, 04:56:52 PM »
Looking at the mirrored field surrounding the temple with inspection microscope at 20x, I can not find striation lines on either LD or SD.  The striation lines (which is due to wiping die with rags) should be a group of fine, parallel lines.  Tilting the coins around I can see a few fine lines for both coins, but these lines are oriented in random directions. 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2017, 05:05:10 PM »
Shenzhen mint started its operation in 1996 and had received ISO certificate at the same time. Therefore, it has to follow the ISO requirement to keep all production and quality control records. Mr. Zhao was appointed to be the first Manage Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K. in 1993 and retired in 2010. IMO, he definitely has the privilege to examine the production records even after his retirement from the position. The data in his book (Analysis of the market for contemporary precious metal coins in China) for annual usage of gold and silver by mint can not be obtained unless you are the Sr. Executive of China Gold Coin Inc. Mr. Zhao is the most knowledgeable person in MCC and his article, which published in the journey which the People's Bank of China is the publisher, can not be considered as innuendo and rumors.

It will be very helpful, if representative of NGC can post here and provide the background information about the circumstance of recognizing this SD version. Have NGC ever consulted with China Mint in this instant?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2017, 05:08:18 PM »
Looking at the mirrored field surrounding the temple with inspection microscope at 20x, I can not find striation lines on either LD or SD.  The striation lines (which is due to wiping die with rags) should be a group of fine, parallel lines.  Tilting the coins around I can see a few fine lines for both coins, but these lines are oriented in random directions. 


Thanks. The lines shown on the photos must be the scratched line on the NGC holder.

Offline Kelvin C

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2017, 03:54:44 AM »
popconopenn: Please answer yes or no.

1) At present,  can you state categorically that the 2001 Silver Panda coin (Small D) is “not genuine”?

2) To date, do you agree that Mr. Zhao has proved without shadow of doubt that the 2001 Silver Panda (Small D) coin is “not genuine”?

I disagree topic title should remain. It is setting a bad precedent for future posts.

While I and sure other agree that discussion and analysis is benefit. Conclusions should not be made before evidence and proof has been put forward.

Although obviously highly knowledge about MCC. I would question whether he is the most knowledgeable. There are others in China with high knowledge of MCC but not wishing to come into the spotlight by sell books and write paper. No other has stated publicly the coin not genuine.

Although giving his positions this and that, if Mr. Zhao had to visit the Mint to investigate. That would indicate that he was not present during the minting of this coin or perhaps importantly the large d also.

I have contact several mints worldwide searching for more information on rare coin and many time their records are far from up to date or reliable. Many people retire, no accurate computer records etc. Look at the Krause book is filled with error and either they make their figure up or possible the mint provide the wrong information.

I understand you and other willingness to explore this panda. However, unlike you I pay over 1000 dollar on ebay for my investment. I am not happy that the title states publicly the coin is not genuine when that conclusion has not been reached.


Offline jc888888888

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2017, 07:10:05 AM »
+1

Online KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #100 on: May 29, 2017, 04:21:50 PM »
I have followed this discussion although I don't have a horse in the race. I am bewildered by the resistance to a simple enquiry. Is it better for collectors to buy coins of unproven provenance? I don't see a threat to this coin's long term value if it is genuine. IMO!
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Offline jc888888888

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #101 on: May 29, 2017, 04:57:36 PM »
 It is about totally  unsubstantiated claims that have no basis of fact  plain and simple some guy that hardly anyone even knows says the coin is a fake it and it affects people's perseption  after two of the most reputable grading companies agree that the coin is genuine and that a coin board of the stature allows that thread title to remain posted and you have no problem with that?

Online KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2017, 10:54:34 PM »
The title of this thread is: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product. Putting "genuine" in parenthesis tells any casual reader that this is not a done deal and leaves room for discovery as is happening in this thread. Definitive resolution of this issue may or may not occur in this thread, now and here. But I am okay with the history (of this coin) that I am reading and attempts at comparative analysis of the physical properties of the coins.
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Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2017, 02:53:43 AM »
The proper way of phrasing the title to this thread would be: "Is the 2001 small D 1 oz silver panda a genuine China Mint product ?". (with a question mark)
It is the definitive "NOT" that is troublesome regardless of whether "genuine" is in quotes or not.

I think we all understand proper English and current thread title is quite "misleading"
It comes across as an assertion and not a question....and it is quite this point that is troubling many readers.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
The proper way of phrasing the title to this thread would be: "Is the 2001 small D 1 oz silver panda a genuine China Mint product ?". (with a question mark)
It is the definitive "NOT" that is troublesome regardless of whether "genuine" is in quotes or not.

This thread has transformed from one respected CCF member (poconopenn) relaying prudent information about "small D" to our community to a careful study of whether certain assertions about "small D" can be proven or verifiable. I don't know whether there is a PROPER way to title the thread, however, we could definitely consider changing it to something mentioning an EXAMINATION of properties of "small D" to determine genuineness.

I think we all understand proper English and current thread title is quite "misleading"
It comes across as an assertion and not a question....and it is quite this point that is troubling many readers.

It should be pointed out that the assertion in question is only troublesome to owners of the coin. I am not troubled by the title because I have no skin in the game. I can understand how those who own the coin would be concerned.