Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product

[dynamike51]

Based on that conversation, small-D is already in the marketplace in 2007

SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?

[trozau]

I have not seen a 2001 large D, small D silver panda. For the 2001 500 Yuan gold panda and 2001 D 500 Yuan gold panda, the 2001 has straight reeding while the 2001 D has diagonal reeding. If the same is true for the 2001 and 2001 large D silver and the small D was just added to the 2001 silver, then the small D 2001 should have straight reeding instead of the diagonal reeding found on large D 2001.

[poconopenn]

I have not seen a 2001 large D, small D silver panda. For the 2001 500 Yuan gold panda and 2001 D 500 Yuan gold panda, the 2001 has straight reeding while the 2001 D has diagonal reeding. If the same is true for the 2001 and 2001 large D silver and the small D was just added to the 2001 silver, then the small D 2001 should have straight reeding instead of the diagonal reeding found on large D 2001.

Both 2001 and 2001 D silver panda have straight reeding. Starting 2002, silver pandas have diagonal reeding.

[trozau]

Both 2001 and 2001 D silver panda have straight reeding. Starting 2002, silver pandas have diagonal reeding.

That's unfortunate. Thanks for the info.

[SANDAC]

SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?

That, indeed, is the question in everyone's mind: how is a variety that did not existed prior to 2011 suddenly showed up in abundance?  The "didn't existed prior" assertion is due to my search of what I had of NGC's database which represents about 50% of 2001D population at the time.  It is not 100% screening, but I'm satisfied that it is at least very rare.  The "abundant afterward" are due to discoveries of sheets and sheets of small-D by CCF members in good standings as documented in the pages of http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10021.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10294.0
The original discovery was in the pages of silverstackers, topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html, but my link to it is broken.
For those favor the small-D being genuine, look into the accounts of how they were discovered, population chart and great distribution channel insight by keydatepanda.
For those against the small-D, the "why none existed prior vs many afterward" remains the most convincing point.
For me, it is one of the interesting statistics mysteries in the rank of 1995 unicorn, pagoda, and frosted 1993 yin yang.  They are collectible simply because of the interesting stories behind them.

[pandamonium]

Interesting, after reading comments it seems there is a serious problem w/ the small D and China Mint......        Lots of twists and turns in the Chinese coin market.......   Wish i could see into the future of say 5 yrs to see how this works out for the small D and many other MCC......
As posted earlier the 89 You You gold panda could be a rare bear due to post by David and poconopen.     It may take some time to come to a conclusion about its surviving pop.......many other questions too.....
 

[fwang2450]

For those against the small-D, the "why none existed prior vs many afterward" remains the most convincing point.

Not so fast! Here is a story of some coins surfacing some 20 years after they were struck:

Around 2010, a new version of the cuni Tibet commemorative coin issued in 1985 appeared on the Chinese market, mostly imported from Hong Kong. The finish is different from the typical MS strikes, and the edge is straight instead of rounded like that of business strikes. Many doubted its authenticity, because how come it had never been seen on the market in the 20 some years after it was struck? Moreover, how come it was sold mainly out of Hong Kong? It turned out that the coin was genuine, however. For details, please read my blog article: http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/2013/11/unveil-mystery-of-straight-side-old.html

I only need to add that after my blog article, the Hong Kong distributor of the coin fully acknowledged its origin and the mystery is now considered cleared.

So "Why none existed prior" may not be a convincing argument. You have no idea how these coins may have been accidentally hoarded.

[fwang2450]

A scenario I can imagine is that the Mint started out by punching the D on the finished coin. (This has to be proved by microscopic evidence of such punching. But anyone claiming these are fantasy coins with the D punched by a private party has to prove it anyway.) After some were produced, the Mint decided it was not a viable method of mass production, and so switched to engraving the D on the die/hub. The trial strikes were stored in some corner of the Mint vault instead of getting melt. Around 2010, they chanced upon these long forgotten coins and decided to release them to make some money.

:)

[poconopenn]

A scenario I can imagine is that the Mint started out by punching the D on the finished coin. (This has to be proved by microscopic evidence of such punching. But anyone claiming these are fantasy coins with the D punched by a private party has to prove it anyway.) After some were produced, the Mint decided it was not a viable method of mass production, and so switched to engraving the D on the die/hub. The trial strikes were stored in some corner of the Mint vault instead of getting melt. Around 2010, they chanced upon these long forgotten coins and decided to release them to make some money.

:)

The chance is very limited, since regular 2001 was made at Shanghai Mint, while 2001 D was made at Shenzhen Mint. Also, it is not cost-effective to introduce additional production step to mint the coin.

[poconopenn]

Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts.

[PandaCollector]

SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?

This has happened before. At one time a large percentage of all the gold 2000 100 Yuan mirror Pandas were in the safe of one person who was unaware of the variety. One day, many years later, he discovered sherts of them piled in the back of a vault and sold most as ordinary 2000 coins. Not everyone, especially back around 2001 when the Panda market was less developed, looked carefully at their coins for varieties.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

[poconopenn]

SANDAC,

Please take a cross-up picture of D of your coin, if possible.

I tried to enlarge the D from picture copied from PCGS. The resolution is just not good enough and also too much reflection. I am tried to see if there are any residue of frosty powder left on the mirror surface of D.

[1668Chris]

Something to keep in mind; this is not an official statement from China Gold Coin, China Banknote Printing & Minting, or the People's Bank of China.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Poconopenn stated that China Numismatics is publication of Bank of China which would imply this is an official statement.  Which one is it?

[SANDAC]

Here are pictures I took this morning of 3685786-032, normal D and 3764927-005, small D.  I tried to focus on the bottom of the "D", so the rest of the surface may be slightly out of focus.

[SANDAC]

I can see more details with an inspection microscope at 50x:  I can see the recessed walls of the "D" are frosted for both small D & normal D.  The mirror surface at the bottom of the D have striation marks as well as small blisters (due to chemical etch?) The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D.

Update: 
When I said the sidewalls of "D" are frosted, I mean the walls are not mirror-like as in the bottom of the "D".  The normal "D" has more noticeable vertical grooves along the sidewalls.  The sidewalls of the small D are quite smooth.

For the normal D, the bottoms of the "D", the "10 Yuan", and the "1 oz Ag .999" all are peppered with roughly same size blisters and the striation marks run the same direction.  For the small D, the blisters are also present in the bottoms of all texts except they are much smaller.  The striation marks run the same direction for "D" and "10 Yuan", but I couldn't find striation marks on "1 oz Ag .999".