Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product

[poconopenn]

I have examined 79 NGC graded 2001 SD (about 40% of graded) and all have the same scratched line as shown in Reply #67. The picture of 4443698-001 posted at eBay can not see the scratched line, but it is clearly shown at NGC website. The wider mirror band mentioned in the same Reply appear to be typical for small D version. After close examine the picture of coin posted by SANDAC, the reflection at the tip of the mirror band had masked the mirror surface, and made the mirror band narrowed than the actual size.

There is another common feature of small D version; the lack of 3-dimensional details of fur at the frosty area of shoulder as shown in the attached pictures.

I will be appreciated very much if any member of CCF who has small D version without scratched line as shown in Reply #67 or with some 3-dimensional details of fur at shoulder area, can provide me with the NGC certified # via PM

All world mints produce coin with multiple stations and then collect coin to the packing area and China Mint does the same. All sheet packed by China Mint will have coins made from different dies from different stations. It is very odd to have sheet made with coins from the same production die. This 2001 SD version appears to have the coins made from the same production die and being packed in the same sheet.

[1668Chris]

I also have had the opportunity to see how carefully NGC (and I am sure PCGS) scrutinizes new varieties for authenticity. That certainly rules out that the coins themselves are counterfeit and I will be very surprised if they missed a bogus mark

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Out of curiosity, then why did you exclude the "1987 missing mint mark" and the "1992 high 2" from your new book?

[ancuctcn]

"There is another common feature of small D version; the lack of 3-dimensional details of fur at the frosty area of shoulder as shown in the attached pictures."

Looking at my 2001 Large D I notice lack of details and frosted look around shoulder and collar. I have 12 Large D

Nice pictures. Also notice the ear on large D picture B (2nd one) looks different from the others. Any idea or just me?

[PandaCollector]

Out of curiosity, then why did you exclude the "1987 missing mint mark" and the "1992 high 2" from your new book?

Look on page 329

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

[jc888888888]

So I can put this silliness to bed in about three sentences, this Chinese guy Zoah ,Zu or whatever the heck his name is ....is a crackpot  WHAT NO ONE HAS MENTIONED in this 6 page ramble is one indisputable fact ..........  I was one of the first persons to have the small D in my hand ,And if anyone takes the time to look at my original post AND PICTURES ,all these small d coins and everyone that I have seen in an ungraded state ..... CAME IN UNDENIABLY GENUINE ORIGINAL CHINA MINT  PACKAGING THE FIRST 100 COINS FOUND WHERE ALL IN TEN COUNT SHEETS and the ones I owned where 10 ct SHEETS  ...... So what I hear folks saying is some private mint either obtained GENUINE MINT PACKING and sealed these coins inside it....??? you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you:) Please the authenticity of this coin is undeniable ..     

[jc888888888]

one more and im done  :) My coins where all sent to NGC in the original mint packaging  ......:)    and the person who submitted the first coins to NGC sent them in OMP ,keep in mind NGC made this discovery  ...not someone with a high res camera and a lot of time on their hands.....

[jc888888888]

001.JPG (726.54 kB, 1600x1200 - viewed 255 times.)

[jc888888888]

go back to the start from Mr. Sandac links and look at the pictures of undeniable genuine mint packaging with COA slips and tell me that someone forged this packaging,or stole it from the mint , to produce a variety of a coin that was found totally BY ACCIDENT  ,by NGC and submitted by several in OMP upstanding members who SUBMITTED THE COINS AS LARGE D,who bought them as large D ,in fact if my memory serves me right ..the first sheet I submitted was graded as Large D ,,NO ONE WHO submitted these coins initially INCLUDING MYSELF  even knew what they had ..... this was a hoard  plain and simple .... of a mint error  or whatever you want to call it... but it is undeniably a China Mint issue
Why would someone who wanted to perpetuate a fraud sell the coins in full sheets EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE A FRAUD .... TO GUYS LIKE ME FOR $50 A POP  and hope and pray NGC discovers them by accident:)  thats a real money maker isn't it:)  come on people TOTAL FOOLISHNESS!!no one new what they where and they are genuine plain and simple   Again I stand by my statement all coins I had where in 100% undeniablY IN GENUINE omp

[jc888888888]

ANYONE : who feels they are holding fake or fantasy NGC or pcgs graded fakes :) or OMP  and wants to limit there losses PLEASE PM ME , I will purchase everyone to ease any members pain and limit their losses Regard,s Joe

[jc888888888]

As far as I am concerned this board should do the responsible thing a pull the title of this thread down ....it is totally unsubstantiated HOGWASH!
FULL DISCLOSURE : I have no financial interest in my statements, I currently have  4 or 5 graded coins in my collection(  ,I traded or sold others years ago ...... these 4 or 5 coins I currently own probably represent a lot less than 1/100th of 1% of my total collection IF THAT .. SO IF THE COIN VALUE went to melt it is a couple of decent dinners for me and my Family:)

[jc888888888]

I will chime in here to help maybe clarify a few things. These were first purchased by myself and a few others in 2012 from a very reliable dealer from China with the highest integrity . They were purchased in mint sealed sheets of 10 from shenzhen guabao, they were purchased as regular issue 2001 d pandas. After being submitted to NGC for grading they were designated a small d variety which opened up the whole conversation which I originally posted on silverstackers .  So if these were not a genuine mint product or fantasy coin as indicated by the article someone would have had to have access to the original 2001 mint dies ( or be extremely talented in producing exact replicas)  , have a private mint produce them adding a smaller d , seal them in original shenzhen sheets and capsules only to sell them as regular issue 2001 d pandas years later ?? is it possible yes but I dont see any possible motive for all that work for nothing other than to create confusion because there was no monetary gain in selling them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
The best theory I can accept and may have been mentioned in the original thread or in private to me is that for some reason the mint did either a small run or full run of these and someone decided the D needed to be larger  and the run was to be melted , for some reason the run was not melted or most were and some were kept and maybe sold to someone who kept them for some time and then sold them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
One note too is in the original thread post 36 joeman states that he bought 2 sheets of the small d variety from Peking in 2003, if I am reading that correctly then these were probably minted at the same time as the original 2001 d . Also interesting as mentioned that these all tend to be very nice coins that grade very high indicating they were first strike type coins .
I think after Sandacs microscopic analysis of the D in both large and small it seems that the minting process seems to be fairly identical if i am understanding it correctly.
Personally I agree that the thread title should be changed as it would read to most that this is a fact that it is not a genuine issue coin and I would say this article is far from conclusive . I think it is highly irresponsible to title the thread as such especially by someone who is looked so highly upon by many Chinese coin collectors and CCF members.
I look foreword to any more evidence that may come to light on this mysterious coin . For now I am holding my opinion that this is an extremely rare silver panda variety and will probably be clouded in mystery for many years to come if not eternally......

Hi Silverstar, :)   Just a little clarity  :)   You my friend are the discoverer of the small D ...so be it by accident ..but you are:) ( you by submitting them to ngc )  when I have time I will PM you and explain how our mutual dealer friend (who you got your coins from) and I got the coins  but as I said they where bought from a collector who had them in his safe since 2003 .... the dealer and I acquired the coins at almost the same time from the same person (mutual friend)... I submitted mine shortly before you did the first sheet I submitted came back large D< I actually sold some as large D,s:) some lucky customers ..then you submitted yours and the fireworks went off  when NGC designated your sheet the small D .... the dealer you bought them from never profited from these small D,s he flipped them quickly as common inventory before the discovery ..Another member here who will remain nameless bought 3 or 4 sheets from the dealer you bought from ... the same dealer you bought from had apx 8 or 9 sheets which he sold all in OMP before the discovery   NO ONE BUT NO ONE thought these coins where anything but regular 2001D until you submitted yours ...... so THERE YOU GO IMAGINE THAT  no Russian conspiracy  theory or nothing LOL   There is another person looking at this thread  who could easily collaborate what I have just said .... that is up to him or her:)

[poconopenn]

I can see more details with an inspection microscope at 50x:  I can see the recessed walls of the "D" are frosted for both small D & normal D.  The mirror surface at the bottom of the D have striation marks as well as small blisters (due to chemical etch?) The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D.

SANDAC.

I need another favor from you. Please examine the mirror surface of the coins, if possible take the picture, to see if you can see the mirror surface is similar to the observation at the bottom of D as mentioned in your post, "The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D". In other words, which version shows a rougher surface? Thanks for your help.

 

[jc888888888]

Snowball ..do we allow threads like this with that title to remain up on a reputable board like this one ....my opinion is this:  innuendo and rumors or the postings of some Chinese guy about a coin with ZERO BASIS OF FACT are ridiculous  , I am all for a lively discussion  but when someone post a thread with this heading: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product.... WITH NO PROOF, after 2 of the most prominent grading companies certifying the coins authenticity  ,  is someone trying to create a buying opportunity here??  another pagoda??   this board is read by  a lot of collectors............   

[pandamonium]

As i posted, NGC stands by their grading of the small D.     Yes, there are buyers of the small D as they wait for holders to sell for a good price but that will probably not happen now.     On the other hand, it is always good to debate and hopefully learn something new.....next topic?.....

[Sandspanda]

We purchased the small d in China years back 09-10. Price was 550 Yuan.