Author Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product  (Read 30827 times)

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2017, 01:20:32 PM »
Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts.


I think Mr Zhao needs to provide proof and facts as opposed to talking about theories and possibilities.  If he as factual information it should be shared with the MCC community.  It is not helpful or constructive for him to pose this position without providing details. 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2017, 06:02:09 PM »
Here are pictures I took this morning of 3685786-032, normal D and 3764927-005, small D.  I tried to focus on the bottom of the "D", so the rest of the surface may be slightly out of focus.

Thanks for the nice pictures. Please also post the pictures of panda side for regular, LD and SD. There is a good chance to identify that 3 small D coins from PCGS pictures posted previously may actually be made from the same production die. Your coin will confirm if this is the case. Thanks again.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2017, 06:46:11 PM »
Poconopenn stated that China Numismatics is publication of Bank of China which would imply this is an official statement.  Which one is it?
I think Mr Zhao needs to provide proof and facts as opposed to talking about theories and possibilities.  If he as factual information it should be shared with the MCC community.  It is not helpful or constructive for him to pose this position without providing details. 

China Numismatics is journal for research papers only. The official announcement related to MCC is published at China Gold Coin, a journal published by China Gold Coin Inc. Mr. Zhao did state that he had checked with mint staff and documents. Since this small D version was discovered about 10 years after the issued year and all coins were from an exclusive source, therefore, he concluded the coin is not genuine China Mint product. IMO, he does know the exclusive source, but just does not want to reveal the source in public for legal or privacy reason, similar to Peter will not provide his source of this type information. Frankly, I do not have problem with this article.

Unfortunately, except SANDAC, those members who own this coin have not participated in the discussion and provided the pedigree of their coin. However, I do believe if we can have enough detail pictures of these three versions, we can confirm or reject Mr. Zhao's conclusion in his paper.   

Offline Kelvin C

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2017, 10:58:25 PM »
"Unfortunately, except SANDAC, those members who own this coin have not participated in the discussion and provided the pedigree of their coin. However, I do believe if we can have enough detail pictures of these three versions, we can confirm or reject Mr. Zhao's conclusion in his paper. "

I own this coin and it was purchased on ebay. After careful review of this and other forum analysis and especially by authentication of NGC and PCGS. I believe it is one of the rarest silver pandas. I would not be alone in this thinking as over 200 have been graded and are out there.

I again would request that the title of your topic be changed as a simple Google of this coin screams not genuine right away.  Still without definitive proof.

Years ago there was much discussing on these forms about this coin. You or any one could have purchased one for several hundred dollar. Checked it. Graded it and listed back to the market if you were uncomfortable. Keydatepanda touches on the fact that he purchased a sheet for a client of his.

At present this forum is still trying to establish that this coin is not genuine. As of this date it is still not confirmed un-genuine by the Mint, NGC, PCGS. Its authentication has been questioned by Mr. Zhao.

You have now given a small insight into Mr. Zhao. You have mentioned that he is retired. Is he actually retired?

I ask. Is Mr. Zhao currently employed by the China Mint, The Peoples Bank of China, China Gold Coin inc, Great Wall Investments HK or other companies related to these organizations? Does Mr. Zhao sit on the board of any of these companies that would perhaps entitle him to [u]"access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts."[/u] etc?

A small note but why does Mr. Zhao feel the need to Repeat what he stated earlier in his article?
“Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts..”

Mr Zhao should have provided indisputable facts to back up his opinion. The market is ripe for gossip and rumor. If Mr Zhao is in fact retired and his position/job is not under threat. He is at liberty to make more and more accusations without evidence in the future.  Does he have intention? He waited a long time to investigate this. I don't know. But this forum title should change topic title until there is indisputable evidence.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2017, 07:47:31 AM »
If "Mr Zhao has access to confidential documents which cannot be obtained by most experts", then he is a top priority to contact.    Can we invite him to be a forum member?    Can a member here keep in contact w/ him and translate information?     Is he willing to produce a monthly letter about MCC that we can subscribe to?      Is it possible to access the information he knows or can obtain?.....

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2017, 08:22:23 AM »
Photos of 2001D LD, 3685786-032

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2017, 08:26:13 AM »
Photos of small D, 3764927-005
Please note that this coin has a die marking that's different than most small-D.  It is a small dot under the character "people" on the temple side as documented here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg48699#msg48699

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2017, 08:59:18 PM »
Photos of small D, 3764927-005
Please note that this coin has a die marking that's different than most small-D.  It is a small dot under the character "people" on the temple side as documented here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg48699#msg48699


SANDAC, thanks for nice pictures.

The picture of SANDAC’s coin confirm that his coin was minted with the same production die used in minting the three PCGS graded coin posted previously (Reply #39). As shown in the attached pictures, these four coins has a scratched line at the same position. Two submissions, NGC 3649454-001-010 (6/10 are MS70) and 4289022-011-032 (3/21 are MS70), based on pictures at NGC website, also show the same scratched line.

One recently graded (4443698-001) coin, which currently listed at eBay, does not show the scratched line, but has a wider mirror band as marked in the attached picture. This need further research to confirm if there is a new version of SD or just optic illusion.  NGC has locked me out to use its verification site to check this invoice # at this moment. Apparently, NGC does not like anybody to use its site for research. I was locked out after 15 minutes and needed to wait for 6 hours to be able to look the picture again. This happened twice yesterday.


Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2017, 11:08:20 PM »
Sharp eyes catching that common scratch, Poconopenn!
Some of the earlier posted pics also seems to suggest wider mirror band - would be interesting to see if this is possibly just a frosting variation?

See SANDAC's  GIF overlay Large D/ Small D

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Kelvin C

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2017, 03:33:31 AM »
Thank you SANDAC for your extensive research and time devoted to a coin that has received much scrutiny of the years.
It was interesting reading through the old link posted from 2011. Few things stand out to me.

Aside from the boasting that goes on when one has something others don't know much about.  The early holders of this coin did appear somewhat forthcoming in providing information and pictures about this coin.
Reference in these posts are made to Mr. Peter Anthony's first addition of Gold & silver Panda coins buyer guide the size difference of the D. Perhaps Mr. Peter can remember if his pictures are from his stock and when they may have been photographed?

This quote here: Quote from: poconopenn on December 09, 2012, 05:08:38 PM

IMO, both NGC graded 2001 D small D coins are genuine.  With further research, this version may not be uncommon inside China.
 
Attached are pictures which will allow you to make a quick check of large and small D.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                                                                                                                                                       
Aside from this informative old post and touching on the fact that NGC acknowledge and began grading these with Small D labeled sometime in 2012 and PCGS accrediting them sometime later in 2013?

If one searches through the archives of NGC news they find extensive articles on counterfeiting and altering coins. NGC posts an article where they specifically relate to the 2001 China silver Panda in 2007.

A conclusion can be reached that establishes the fact NGC would closely scrutinize the 2001 D coin if any future varieties were to come forth.

Further an article related to the posted 12/12/2012 on the goldfish and pagoda sets finishes with this statement.
“After careful research including consultation with several Chinese mints, NGC acknowledges that all four metal types were officially minted. As a result, NGC will now accept all four metal types for certification.”

I know a rep from PCGS had posted here in the past. Perhaps someone from these companies can provide information on their grading of this coin.




Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2017, 09:08:24 AM »
I find it difficult to fathom that the 2001 small D would be fake after all of the PCGS and NGC certifications.
Until we are absolutely certain, I think the title of this feed should be changed before people start making unfounded claims.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2017, 07:28:45 PM »
I contacted a NGC employee and they are sticking to their grading conclusions....I do not own any 2001 small D silver pandas, just curious to hear NGC's side of the coin.......

On another note, i get contacts from several collectors about many Chinese that could be fakes.    Graders have the gun that can determine metal content, micro scopes and who knows what else.     Graders have made mistakes but i side w/ them as their technology gets better and they get wiser.    For the most part NGC does a lot of research before grading so for me i am comfortable w/ them......

Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2017, 11:21:04 PM »
I will chime in here to help maybe clarify a few things. These were first purchased by myself and a few others in 2012 from a very reliable dealer from China with the highest integrity . They were purchased in mint sealed sheets of 10 from shenzhen guabao, they were purchased as regular issue 2001 d pandas. After being submitted to NGC for grading they were designated a small d variety which opened up the whole conversation which I originally posted on silverstackers .  So if these were not a genuine mint product or fantasy coin as indicated by the article someone would have had to have access to the original 2001 mint dies ( or be extremely talented in producing exact replicas)  , have a private mint produce them adding a smaller d , seal them in original shenzhen sheets and capsules only to sell them as regular issue 2001 d pandas years later ?? is it possible yes but I dont see any possible motive for all that work for nothing other than to create confusion because there was no monetary gain in selling them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
The best theory I can accept and may have been mentioned in the original thread or in private to me is that for some reason the mint did either a small run or full run of these and someone decided the D needed to be larger  and the run was to be melted , for some reason the run was not melted or most were and some were kept and maybe sold to someone who kept them for some time and then sold them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
One note too is in the original thread post 36 joeman states that he bought 2 sheets of the small d variety from Peking in 2003, if I am reading that correctly then these were probably minted at the same time as the original 2001 d . Also interesting as mentioned that these all tend to be very nice coins that grade very high indicating they were first strike type coins .
I think after Sandacs microscopic analysis of the D in both large and small it seems that the minting process seems to be fairly identical if i am understanding it correctly.
Personally I agree that the thread title should be changed as it would read to most that this is a fact that it is not a genuine issue coin and I would say this article is far from conclusive . I think it is highly irresponsible to title the thread as such especially by someone who is looked so highly upon by many Chinese coin collectors and CCF members.
I look foreword to any more evidence that may come to light on this mysterious coin . For now I am holding my opinion that this is an extremely rare silver panda variety and will probably be clouded in mystery for many years to come if not eternally......

Offline geoxxx

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2017, 05:21:25 AM »
Well said !

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2017, 09:33:01 PM »
The origins of some coins are so fantastic that they could never be guessed in a thousand years. And there is absolutely no documentation except insiders' recollections to explain it (some of these accounts can be found in the latest Panda book). If it is true that sheets were sold long ago at the same price as the Large D varieties, it may take an eyewitness account to straighten the story out. I, for one, am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to authenticity unless and until some proof to the contrary is offered.

I also have had the opportunity to see how carefully NGC (and I am sure PCGS) scrutinizes new varieties for authenticity. That certainly rules out that the coins themselves are counterfeit and I will be very surprised if they missed a bogus mark.

I acknowledge that it is not always possible to reveal sources of information. Without something concrete, however, it is not possible to be 100% certain about the issues raised.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com