Author Topic: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product  (Read 16944 times)

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Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2017, 03:05:20 AM »
I would love to see a thread more along the lines of " The elusive 2001 small D silver pandas and the mysteries surrounding their origin "  .

You are a member of the forum and all members can create threads. All you have to do is get it started.

Offline twong

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2017, 04:15:29 AM »
However, there are plenty of 2001 Silver Pandas with D in China. It has not been a popular coin to collect there due to its similar to 02. Overseas collectors are more likely to buy sheets of D's. Look at the 2007 25th anniversary sets. They didn't even both to included the two coins just merge as one for 2001-02. Back then Chinese dealers are not so interested in varieties anyway. (Some are but most not) It is well known that westerners are willing to pay slightly more so why not sell overseas if have the avenue.

Further not all went overseas as others have been purchased in China.

You have wrote before about Master collectors not focusing on varieties they just want the coins.



Kelvin, I don't think that's the reason why it got sold more in US. Arif has already mentioned that the controversy started in 2012.  If you knew about this controversy, would you still purchase it? Furthermore from my experience price of panda coins are actually more expensive in China.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2017, 08:07:05 AM »
Everyone has an opinion .Mine is the coin is no doubt in my mind genuine ...I would urge anyone holding the coin to sit tight as IMHO it is a quite rare genuine China mint Panda.  That being said I will put my money where my conviction is ,I am a buyer of the 2001 small d if anyone is nervous PM me. 
The real question why was it made??  The only plausible theory I ever heard was it was struck and then decided the d was too small and dies where changed ? who knows??that is the mystery...like many variety,s sometimes the dies are slightly different at every mint?  creating the variety?

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2017, 10:51:48 AM »
A couple of technical points to consider. 

1). The small "d" is incused on the surface of the coin.  This means a couple of things.  One is the die would have to have a raised surface "d" to create this effect on the coin.  This means that the "d" cannot be hand stamped onto the die.  Which may be the case in the 1994 silver proof unicorn since the "p" is raised on the surface.

2). This now means that there are two hubs to produce the incused small d and large d.  The hubs are used to produce the dies.

3). If two hubs do not exist, then the only other way to produce an incused "d" is to manually, thru the use of a press, place a "d" on the surface of the coin.

4). If #3 is true, I doubt the mint would do this which would mean it was done privately.  But the question remains why?  Why duplicate another 2001 panda with a "d" without a profit motive.  Counterfeiting only makes economic sense after a coin becomes very valuable....which is not the case here.  There were plenty of other "d" s available on the market.  It is possible that the small "d" were trial strikes to test the dies, for which the mint was not happy with. And hence produced another hub.  For which the original hub may have been destroyed.  ( this may easily explain the 1987 missing mint mark and 1992 high 2)

5). I would have to believe that any post private mint pressing of a small "d" would easily cause damage to some other parts of the coins surface which should be easily recognizable.

Food for thought.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #139 on: June 04, 2017, 11:26:45 PM »
I have promised to address two claims made by Mr. Zhao in his article.

Only one master hub was used during the production of 2001 D

I have examined pictures of more than 50 coins of 2001, 2001 LD and 2002 and about 90 coins of 2001 SD.
 
Here is my findings:

2001 has few frosty variations. It has many frosty break at the panda face and forehead.

2001 LD has many frosty variations. It has many frosty break at the panda face and forehead, but the 3-D details of fur at the frosted area are the best among these four coins.
 
2001 SD was made from the same production die, since it has the identical scratched line at the same location. The frosted area is in an excellent condition and the 3-D details of fur in frosted area are poor vs. 2001 and 2001 LD. Pictures provided by SANDAC in Reply #92 also suggested that the 3-D details of fur on mirror surface as well as bamboos in frosted area are less pronounce in 2001 SD vs. 2001 LD.

2002 also has few frosty variations. The frosted area is in an excellent condition and 3-D details of fur in frosted area are slightly poorer than 2001 and 2001 LD, but slightly better than 2001 SD.
 
Attached are pictures of reverse of 2001, 2001 LD version 1, 2001 LD version 2, 2001 SD, 2002 and pictures of obverse (temple) of 2001, 2001 LD and 2001 SD.  Two pictures of 2001 LD (Picture 2 and 3) are posted to show the significant frosty variation of this coin. More pictures will be posted in the next posting to show the differences in fur details in the frosty area for these four coins.

Conclusion:

The design of 2001 is significantly different from 2001 SD. In addition, as mentioned by SANDAC in reply # 59, the bottom of D is mirror in 2001 SD. If D is press in to 2001, the bottom of D will not be mirror-like.  Therefore, it rules out the possibility of adding D on 2001. Based on the available pictures, 2001 SD, IMO, most likely was made with 2002 production die with an added D. Design of both coins is identical. Both coins have a smooth frosty surface (body part of panda) and leak of 3-D details of fur in the same area. Furthermore, based on NGC population report, 2001 SD has 14% graded as 70, and 2002 has 13.3%, while all pre-2005 silver pandas have less than 5%. The similarity of grading result suggest the production die of 2002 was being added D to produce this 2001 SD. I have no intention to speculate if this 2001 SD was produced by Shenzhen Mint or a private mint. However, I can confidently conclude that this small D was produced in a special run, since all coins are from the same production die and packed in the same sheet.

Exclusive source

This claim, IMO, has been established clearly by postings of jc88888888 and silverstar1. The exclusive source was located in Beijing. I will add the following, based on my understanding of the business practice of distributors in China and my own experience in 2002 during a business trip to Shanghai. IN 2000, China Gold Coin Inc. established a distribution network inside China. The network consisted of 100 registered official distributors (currently 900 and 8 major banks). Usually, the distributor also has its network of dealerships. All distributors try to unload their allocation as fast as possible.  The incentive quote system, which next year allocation depending on the selling results of the current year, will encourage them to sell their holding in the same year.  Therefore, all MCC will be distributed quickly and evenly in the country. In 2002, during my business trip to Shanghai. I visited Shanghai coin market and tried to buy 2000 mirror and 2001 D, since they were not for foreign distribution. I could only find two sheets of 2001 D from two different dealers and four mirror 2000 in a connected sheet. Therefore, I was very surprised that someone could find 15 sheets which made with the same die in 2003. I will not be surprised if somebody purchased total of 15 sheets from several dealers, but not single dealer. The chance is very limited.

I do want to thank SANDAC for his very high resolution pictures as well as his description of the coins.
 
Pic. 1: 2001; Pic. 2: 2001 LD Version 1; Pic. 3: 2001 LD version 2; Pic. 4: 2001 SD; Pic. 5: 2002; Pic. 6: 2001; Pic. 7: 2001 LD; Pic. 8: 2001 SD   

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #140 on: June 04, 2017, 11:41:24 PM »
More pictures.

Pic. 1 & 5: 2001; Pic. 2 & 6: 2001 LD; Pic. 3 & 7: 2001 SD; Pic. 4 & 8: 2002

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #141 on: June 04, 2017, 11:57:32 PM »
OMG!!!  :w00t:  N8

If the 2001sd was made with the 2002 die, that means the 2001sd features could be more attenuated when compared to the 2002 coin but that is if a large number of 2001sds were produced. Is this noticeable in the photos? Could this attenuation be seen when comparing the earliest 2002 coins graded by NGC and PCGS with the earliest 2001sd graded by these companies?

How many 2001sd coins were minted?

Thanks for more material to ponder on.
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Offline Kelvin C

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2017, 10:47:21 PM »
Kelvin, I don't think that's the reason why it got sold more in US. Arif has already mentioned that the controversy started in 2012.  If you knew about this controversy, would you still purchase it? Furthermore from my experience price of panda coins are actually more expensive in China.

I knew about it and noted I paid over 1000 in earlier post.

Can I ask you? Knowing what you know today and if you had the choice to buy 2001-2001 Large D or the 2001 Small d at $100.

Which one would you buy?

If you say the small d. Then you admit to buying coins that are not “genuine”

Further, I am not speaking about any other Pandas other than the 2001-2002. As you notice I refer to both those when I speak of 2007 Anniversary sets.

You read what popconopenn writes about his trip to China. What did he look to buy? Two coins that he could not buy overseas! The 'D" was for domestic release only. There are plenty of 2001 large D coins in China. But not in the west. (Over the years anyway) So the 2001 silver panda with a D mark sold for more in the west than it would in China in the past and perhaps now.

As far as controversy. Yes. I would not disagree with Arif. However my take on this is: Due to the fact the 2001 small d just appeared around 2011-2012 Chinese dealers naturally speculate that something is suspicious. But this is said behind closed doors. However, just like office chat, I must look at the real picture. I posted a link of 80!! PCGS authorized dealers in China. How many of them have spoken out or commented in publications or newspaper? How many have come forward to PCGS and said I am not going to take the submission of the 2001 small d because I THINK it is not genuine? Same goes for NGC. Both grading companies Top Executives have been to China many times since 2012 when these were discovered. Both companies were holding grading seminars, opening relations with the dealers and the Mints. Receiving gifts from Mints and associating with the Most knowledgeable coin experts in China. Just read their news and see how often they comment about MCC and their commitment to working with China and providing the highest service.

You can be sure that both these grading companies and auction house like Stacks Bowers knew about this controversy. Yet they continue to grade and sell at auction.

As late as 2015 I received an offer from a Chinese dealer for my small d. The offer was naturally less than I paid so I didn't entertain it. None the less a prominent dealer made offer. I knew about the speculation but the offer only re enforced my believe the coin was genuine Shenzhen Mint issue.

Sometimes what dealers speculate on and there actions are quite different. Go and offer any dealer in China selling a 2001 small d 500 Yuan today. He will not sit there and discuss controversy with you. He will tell you don't bother me with low offer and go somewhere else. Knowing several dealers. They probably just ignore you.

I have no intention to speculate if this 2001 SD was produced by Shenzhen Mint or a private mint.   


I’ll speculate this because this is the basis of 2001 small d owners argument. They were produced by the Shenzhen Mint.

A) It would be un imaginable for a private mint to have done this and then bring the 2001 small d coins into the Shenzen Mint to have them sealed. (Did no employee remember a small d coming in for seal when Mr. Zhao had a chat with them?? Or are people just not there anymore, retired or no records to verify any of these events?)

B) Why would a private Mint do all this work? Take all this risk (Legally or illegally) THEN sell the small d in the markets at the same price as a large d 2001 panda!?

These make more sense:

My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

It is possible that the small "d" were trial strikes to test the dies, for which the mint was not happy with. And hence produced another hub.  For which the original hub may have been destroyed.
Food for thought.






Offline silverstar1

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2017, 11:25:34 PM »
Poconopenn, Thanks for your post and analysis .
So you are concluding that the 2001 small d panda is actually from the 2002 Die ? Wow that is something I did not even consider , I dont necessarily agree or disagree with that but it certainly adds a new twist to ponder . It could be that they planned on a D version for the 2002, but then why have the 2001 still on the obverse, maybe just a test strike never meant to be released?

Do you have any opinion why this would have been done? Also are you comparing the actual coins or just pictures ? the lighting and angles can play all kinds of tricks even subtle differences.

I will have to look at all three coins under magnification and test your conclusion.

I definitely agree that this is not some aftermarket stamp on a regular 2001 panda , the pressure required to stamp deep in Fine silver and even gold would be extremely difficult to do without making a significant mark on the coin, I have stamped alot of metal. And the lack of tool marks would rule out engraving so I think we can put the aftermarket D theory to rest.

Offline trozau

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #144 on: June 06, 2017, 08:55:59 AM »
Poconopenn, thanks for all your detailed analysis. If the silver 2001 small D was struck using the 2002 panda die with small D added, it would suggest that they were struck at the same time (or after) that the 2002 were struck. If the official mint were producing these, it would follow that they would have struck them with diagonal reeding (which you say started with the 2002 silver Panda).
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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #145 on: June 06, 2017, 10:12:24 AM »
Brilliant!  My 2001 small D has straight reeding, same as the large D.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #146 on: June 06, 2017, 10:15:31 AM »
I also have a question regarding the use of the 2002 die.  Since the die itself is a reverse image of the coin, the "d" on the die must be raised above the surface of the die, to cause the "d" on the coin to be incused.  Without creating a new hub, I am not sure how a "d" can be added to the die.  This does not make sense. 

Here is a good article on die making:

 http://www.doubleddie.com/58201.html


Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #147 on: June 06, 2017, 09:12:49 PM »
I also have a question regarding the use of the 2002 die.  Since the die itself is a reverse image of the coin, the "d" on the die must be raised above the surface of the die, to cause the "d" on the coin to be incused.  Without creating a new hub, I am not sure how a "d" can be added to the die.  This does not make sense. 

Sorry, I use die loosely. I consider hub also a die.

You are correct, logically, this D will be added to working hub if master hub does not have D. IMO, there is no master hub of 2002 D. If you look the picture careful, you will notice that the small D is not straight. The engraver should be able to notice the defect immediately on the large scale plastic model and made the correction if 2002 D master hub was ever made.

Just for information

Die Making

The artist/engraver creates a large plastic model of the coin -----electroplated copper model-----using a reducing lathe to make a steel master hub (positive imagine) ----- master die (negative imagine) -----working hub (positive imagine) ------Working die (production die, negative imagine)

In earlier years, especially for low mintage MCC, the master die would be used as working die. However, for high mintage MCC, such as pandas and circulated coins, the working hub is needed to make multiple working dies. China Mint has about 20 production stations in their plant. Therefore, many working dies will be produced to make a normal production run.

For silver pandas, prior to 2000, all Chinese characters and numbers are raised part of the design with a frosted surface. 2000 is very special, the Chinese characters and 2000 are raised part of design with a mirror surface on observe, while Ag.999 1 oz. and 10 Yuan on reverse are not raised part of the design with a mirror surface. After 2000, all Chinese characters and numbers are not raised part of the design, but with a mirror surface. The frosty treatment is done on the working die. These is the reason that many frosty variations of silver pandas have been noticed.

Attached is picture of die preparation at Shenyang Mint, copied from book “In Commemorating of 100th Anniversary of Shenyang Mint.” The second picture in this picture is electroplated copper model. Clearly, the Chinese characters, date and denomination was included in the design, not added later. 

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #148 on: June 10, 2017, 03:25:10 PM »
For future reference

The attached pictures are copied from recent eBay listing of a double sealed 2001 SD. The observe has a mirror dot, similar to SANDAC’s SD. However, the surface of this double sealed coin is relatively lumpy and has many small frosty break on the body of panda. IMO, this coin was made with the same die but at a later stage. The last picture is copied from SANDAC's picture.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-SMALL-D-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-MS-/142388026785?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ZxHg3hPvzHBAEkyFI7%252By0A2X6As%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:44:33 AM by snowball »

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
« Reply #149 on: June 10, 2017, 06:38:36 PM »
Poconopenn, thanks for all your detailed analysis. If the silver 2001 small D was struck using the 2002 panda die with small D added, it would suggest that they were struck at the same time (or after) that the 2002 were struck. If the official mint were producing these, it would follow that they would have struck them with diagonal reeding (which you say started with the 2002 silver Panda).

Brilliant!  My 2001 small D has straight reeding, same as the large D.

Which die/hub usually carries the reeding pattern during silver panda coin minting? Is it the die/hub for the obverse or reverse, or is the reeding pattern stamped independently, maybe by the holder/receptacle in which the blank is inserted for stamping? Thanks for clarification because I don't know the answer. Best wishes.
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