Author Topic: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61  (Read 1878 times)

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Offline acrellin

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Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« on: May 24, 2017, 03:46:06 AM »
I understand that this coin is counterfeit, but as I'm not familiar with the diagnostics I'm interested in getting some feedback on it if possible.

The details of the coin are: China 1912 20¢ LM-61

Diameter - 23.70mm
Thickness - 1.40mm
Weight - 5.39g

I hadn't handled one of these before, so didn't pay attention to the striations, denticle shapes or other characteristics the coin has.

What should I have realised before buying it?!

Thanks in advance,

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2017, 11:59:06 AM »
Welcome to this very knowledgeable and friendly forum!
Interesting this coin is being brought up. I can't be for certain that this coin is genuine, but if so it looks like someone tried to clean this coin that would have had great potential. I recently bought one of these for next to nothing and was shocked to see the value. (It was immediately sent to NGC/NCS) It would be great if whoever is knowledgeable on this coin could provide some info or link as to why this coin is so valuable too besides helping this new member authentic this coin.

Offline Little Finger

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2017, 12:02:34 PM »
This looks nice, I would have bought this coin if I saw it, which is reckless.

Offline tater

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2017, 01:31:05 PM »
I know nothing about this coin, however it looks as if someone took a wire brush to it to clean it up before they sold it.

Offline acrellin

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2017, 08:52:00 PM »
Thanks to everyone that has responded - the legend lettering and denticles are both irregular, however I'm not experienced enough in this series to determine whether that is to be expected or not.

The lines that you see in the fields either side are actually raised striations, not hairlines.

It has a lot of lustre when seen in the hand, the planchet is uniformly straight as well, which inclined me to think it could be genuine.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2017, 10:49:45 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

This is 1912 Dr. Sun Yet-sen 20 cents.  A NGC MS62 coin was auction off on April 17, 2017 at Chicago HA Auction for $940.

Attached are pictures of NGC coin.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/china/world-coins/china-republic-sun-yat-sen-20-cents-nd-1912-ms62-ngc-andnbsp-/a/3054-32359.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

IMO, NGC should not grade this coin as MS62. It should be graded as “Genuine, Damaged Surface” Your coin, prior to cleaning will be similar to this NGC coin. IMO, the lines on your coin are scratches caused by cleaning. The striations will be thinner lines. Your coin has the correct weight, but the diameter is slightly off. The correct diameter is about 23 mm.

Offline ccl

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2017, 12:56:59 AM »
An ebay sale the day prior to this HA auction ended at $331.

Coin was PCGS Genuine VF Details.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2017, 11:17:40 AM »
After close examine you coin, the majority hairlines as you indicated are striations, since the lines are not shown on the raised part of the design. They are some hairlines are also shown on the surface of raised part of device, therefore, the coin also was polished. This just confirm that your coin is questionable, since small lumps also shown in the striation area. Apparently the counterfeiter was try to polish the die surface to smooth the field of the device.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2017, 11:21:46 AM »
Thanks for the the reference Poconopenn and CCL. (Btw CCL your website is a great resource!)
Poconopenn you must not be the only one that noticed the condition of this coin in that grade "ms 62", because it seems a little low according to PCGS China Price guide.
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/valueview/116476?cid=4205

The only mintage figures I could find online claimed to be 155,000 is this correct?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 11:37:08 AM »
For Republic coins, usually the condition of the coin is the determine factor of the valuation. Any coin with grade higher than 66 will fetch good valuation. In general, for circulated coins, the collectors/investors should always try to find the high grade coins. For example, there is a big difference in valuation for MS64 and MS65 in Morgan dollar and YSK.

Offline acrellin

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 09:41:40 PM »
Thanks for your feedback. The appearance of the surfaces and the similarity of the design elements to a genuine coin are strong enough for me to think that it is not a cast counterfeit, but has been die struck.

How are counterfeits such as this produced?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Counterfeit China 1912 20c LM-61
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2017, 10:37:18 PM »
Transfer die. Counterfeiter can press a genuine coin into a steel die to make a working die.