Author Topic: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set  (Read 10556 times)

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Offline pandamonium

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CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« on: January 07, 2017, 08:19:13 AM »
China Ancient Traditional Technology Exhibition or CATTE....
Won it on ebay for a whopping $42, in my price range.     It went unnoticed......
Seller mailed it 8 days late and Canada to here may take a month, so not sure if it will show up......
Photos look like gilt but it is probably aluminum.....Only box w/ 6 medals i have ever seen and experts have same opinion......
Feng Yunming medals and the only aluminum.     At this point the rarest of Feng medals.....
Notice spelling of "Traditional".     Missing a "i" so it has got to be genuine Chinese......
First photos are of this set, the last two are of the 5 medal raw set i picked up on ebay about 2 yrs ago for dirt cheap.    The set has 4 medals obverse similar as Feng's Archaeological 12 silver set....   
The 5 raw set has the Camel and Dragon not seen on Archaeological set.......
Both purchases are from Canadian dealers.   I emailed many Canadian sellers w/ photos and no positive response....
Very rare set w/ big upside.    Be on the look out for it.    Maybe high future prices will bring them out of the woodwork?     Aluminum so probably considered a oddity and tossed in a trash can.      Rare Feng set........

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 08:25:59 AM »
Photos of Feng's Archaeological 12 silver set and the 4 that match the CATTE aluminum set......Find the CATTE set!......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 08:33:09 AM »
Oops i forgot, probably 1980.    Not Taiwan.     Please post any information you can find as this is another MCC puzzle that must be solved.......
Rarest Feng set?........

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 04:56:55 PM »
Let me clarify this post.    The Archaeological 12 silver set was posted just to compare photos to the CATTE aluminum medals......

The goal is to learn more about the aluminum CATTE medals/set.    Also members here and collectors elsewhere would like to own these CATTE medals.    By posting, maybe another set or some individual CATTE medals will be found.    It would be interesting to see how they would bid on ebay.    My guess is that they should bring a high price now that we know they are Feng's.    Do not think NGC has graded these medals.    I have no intentions of sending in my medals to NGC as it would take a long time to grade.   If you know of anyone that owns these medals please let me know, post here or put them on ebay.      We have very little information at this point.     For now, the CATTE aluminum medals could be the rarest of Feng Yunming medals.    Mintage/surviving pop is probably very tiny...... Please look for them as the price reward could be very good......Any information would be greatly appreciated.....


Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2017, 08:47:57 AM »
Another curveball.     Set w/ box & 6 medals came in the mail.    It is NOT aluminum like my previous 5 medals.    Same size and design as aluminum.   They are gilt silver or gilt brass.     Heavy medals w/ sharp rim edges.     Set was in a safe since new so UNC.    No fingerprints.    Gorgeous set w/ like new box, purple interior w/ gilt medals.     Have emailed a few collectors/dealers, NGC and waiting on reply.    No COA, dang it.     Will take more photos and weight in a few days.     The gilt may have low spots and the medals looks like silver underneath but not sure.   Non metallic.   Hopes of solving this may take some more time.......At this point a very rare Feng set.....wish information would come out but probably 1980 so there maybe little if any information....Keep a eye out for these medals/sets.......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 02:23:00 PM »
I have contacted many experts in the US and China about this gilt brass set.    Many have replied and others are doing more research.     At this point the CATTE aluminum and gilt brass are both Feng Yunming medals.    All agree to that.     There is no box or other aluminum CATTE medals found yet so it could be the rarest.     Another member owns a gilt brass CATTE set.     The two CATTE sets are considered to be VIP medals or Traveling Exhibition samples for foreign customers.    Either way that should make them very rare.......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 03:05:25 PM »
I picked up this brass? Temple of Heaven medal about 2 yrs ago because the reverse looked familiar and it was peanuts.      Many are looking into this brass medal.     Some have responded and said it is Feng and others say no.     Compare the reverse photos.    (Brown dot on medal is camera reflection)     First 3 photos are of box and brass medal.   (box may or may not be correct)   4th photo is of aluminum Feng CATTE medal.    5th photo is of Feng's Archaeological silver set reverse.     All 3 look similar to me.
Many experts say Feng designed the Temple of Heaven we see on reverse of pandas.     Could this be connected to Feng's Temple of Heaven design?    IF so then it could be a important medal.     Waiting on more responses from those that study Feng in the US and China......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 04:08:25 PM »
The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation...gilt brass
A member that owns this set wants to remain anonymous.    Not my set.    He did allow me to post.....
Seller received it as a VIP gift in 1984 from Chinese businessman.   
Again these are VIP/Traveling Exhibition sales samples for foreign countries.     Low mintage & rare....
These sets were shipped abroad so not found in China but rare singles can be found....
It was posted that China Mint struck brass first then silver.     Feng's 1979 Archaeological 12 silver set was also struck in brass and put into 6 piece VIP sets....
2 medals are different from my CATTE set so that should verify that brass was also struck...
Several members here are actively seaching for these VIP/Traveling Exhibition sets...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2017, 04:10:25 PM »
Feng set...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 04:13:01 PM »
oops, clicked the wrong button...

Offline poconopenn

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 09:00:01 PM »
Where did you find that Feng Yunming to be associated to those medals? I do have the list of designers and engravers employed by China Mint from 1979 to 1990. Feng Yunming is not in the list.

One of the four designers and engravers for bronze ware set is 童友明 (Tong Youming). Perhaps, somebody had mistaken Tong Youming as Feng Yunming.  The gold set was issued in 1981 and silver set in 1990. IMO, none of the medal posted and mentioned above were designed by Feng Yunming and most likely they were not made by China Mint if they were issued in earlier 1980.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 09:05:58 PM »
I also asked why the coins (your photos) were different from the medals when the design was similar.      I have been in contact w/ several members here and dealers in China.    So i trust their opinions.     Will message you some contact names.....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2017, 10:15:41 PM »
Search box here or google to "Feng Yunming and Early Semi Official medals".      Photo of his 1979 Archaeological 12 silver set....  Same design but one is medals and the one you posted are coins....   Who designed them first?   

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2017, 02:10:08 PM »
These gilt sets were made by Feng Yunming, as the designs are the same as in the silver set to his credit. Also these Feng Yunming sets pre-date the China Mint Bronze Ware sets. It is likely that the China Mint designers took their cue from Feng's designs.

Having said that, I seriously doubt Feng's medals were VIP gifts. More likely they were sold in souvenir stores around China for foreign visitors in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Printed text on the inside of the cover of several of his sets does contain the word "souvenir". I am providing the picture of another set from him below. In his diary, he mentioned that (Beijing?) Gardening Administration ordered panda and Great Wall medals from him. I would infer that those medals were intended for sale in the souvenir stores of the Garden Administration. This also accounts for the absence of such medals in China. They were too expensive for the ordinary Chinese at that time. Only foreign visitors could afford them.

Artistically, Feng's medals are on the crude side. The artistic appeal of the China Mint Bronze Ware sets is way greater than Feng's similar set. But then Feng designed the 12 medals all by himself, while the China Mint sets were designed by various artists, who would have enough time to perfect their designs. Feng is better respected as the pioneer of modern Chinese medals, and his medals are worth studying as such. Exaggeration of the importance or value of his medals is unjustified.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2017, 07:01:21 PM »
Thanks for your post, Fwang.   It is always interesting to read your opinions.   The exaggeration of importance or value of Feng's medals maybe unjustified for now but lets see how this market plays out.     When i started collecting 6 yrs ago, us new collectors were given a lot of false information on what to collect and what not too.    In 6 yrs many publications/information came forward and the priorities of collecting changed greatly.   I am not blaming anyone, as this market was very immature then.    Who knew what would be of value in the future?    Lets see what happens in the next few years as more publications/information will come forward.    For me and many other collectors, the Grandfather of medals will have value in time.   Again, let this market mature and revisit our opinions today....

Since you view Feng medals of possibly not having importance, would you be interested in selling the set you have in the photo for a fair low price?   :confused1:     Please keep me in mine.......

Offline poconopenn

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2017, 09:43:20 PM »
IMO, the design of 12 medals set was not original. It was copied from post cards and stamps issued in 1973 in commemorating the Beijing Exhibition of unearthed artworks. Attached are pictures of post cards and stamps.

Many reproduction of those medals are being sold in the package of 4, 6 and 12 medals inside China, especially in the City of Xi-an, the place of those artworks unearthed. They are nicely packed in the package similar to those posted in this thread.

I do own 1979 2-coin 14 gm silver set in commemorating the exhibition of Chinese painting in H.K. The set was designed by Feng Yunming and made by a private mint in Beijing.

Offline eric

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2017, 10:37:07 PM »
Cool pictures. That is a very interesting look at what appears to be the source material for the aforementioned medal designs! Clearly some of those designs were copied very closely. The concepts and subjects themselves are certainly not original to the medals. However from an art/design standpoint IMO that doesn't necessarily make the medal design unoriginal.

This is somewhat semantic, but I think it's a relevant point to the discussion of the medals.Those postcards and stamps are reproductions of photos and paintings of much older pieces of art. In that regard, those media are not the originators of the designs either, but they have depicted three dimensional art forms (such as a sculpture of a horse) in two dimensional media (such as a stamp). For a stamp collector, that wouldn't make a stamp any less valuable, as it's a new piece of art in itself.

Likewise, the engraver of these medals translated the images to medal format. IMO the engraver who had the creativity and ability to choose those designs and put them onto medals is still an originator of the medal design. However, I would also say that his adherence to and reliance upon the source material would support fwang's assertion that Feng's work is not necessarily known best for its artistic value.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2017, 01:04:40 AM »
Since you view Feng medals of possibly not having importance, would you be interested in selling the set you have in the photo for a fair low price?   :confused1:     Please keep me in mine.......
I did not say his medals did not have importance. I said exaggeration of the importance was not justified. They are important as pioneers/experiments of modern Chinese medals. Basically he attempted this art form all by himself before 1980, when there was a market need for such medals as souvenirs. But when China Mint artists caught up starting in 1979, he gradually faded out.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2017, 01:33:09 AM »
Let's dig a little deeper into this topic. After the Cultural Revolution, China was eager to open up and develop diplomatic relations/friendship with other countries. Apart from the well-known Ping Ping Diplomacy, there was an attempt at “cultural relic" diplomacy. Unearthed relics went on government sponsored exhibitions in many countries in the name of "The Exhibition of Archaeological Finds of the People's Republic of China", starting in France in 1973, going through Japan, England, Romania, Austria, Sweden, Mexico, Canada, the US and a few other countries, ending up in Hong Kong in 1978. The silver set from Feng Yunming was made for the Hong Kong leg of the exhibition. There was also a 1.5 oz gold medal, and an enamel one, which are shown below.

It is likely that the same dies or their modified versions were used for other purposes such as souvenir shops or other exhibitions.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2017, 02:43:05 AM »
Thank you for the added info.  Always good to see your contributions to the understanding of the "early modern" pieces.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2017, 08:03:52 AM »
IMO, the design of 12 medals set was not original. It was copied from post cards and stamps issued in 1973 in commemorating the Beijing Exhibition of unearthed artworks. Attached are pictures of post cards and stamps.

Many reproduction of those medals are being sold in the package of 4, 6 and 12 medals inside China, especially in the City of Xi-an, the place of those artworks unearthed. They are nicely packed in the package similar to those posted in this thread.

I do own 1979 2-coin 14 gm silver set in commemorating the exhibition of Chinese painting in H.K. The set was designed by Feng Yunming and made by a private mint in Beijing.





These medals are being reproduced today?     One of the dealers in China is looking for these medals but did not mention they are being reproduced.     He is having a hard time finding them.    Sure hope the medals listed on this post are genuine.     This needs more attention so i will ask around.      The art work is very unusual for me.    Why the bird w/ circle?    Many other questions too.    The more i look at Feng's medals, the more questions and the more interesting they are.     Strange but fascinating is early Chinese art.     Beautiful and unique.      Sadly there is so little information on early years.    These medals started in 1973 in France then on to other countries?   Are they all the same or different?     I wish members here and collectors/dealers in China would write a book or publication on Feng.     That would be a publication that would command attention from MCC fans.......  (OK Fwang, so much for my attempt to grab your beautiful set!)......

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2017, 02:35:53 PM »

 (OK Fwang, so much for my attempt to grab your beautiful set!)......
Some more information about this set by Feng. The designs were taken from images on the end eaves tiles from the Western Han Dynasty. (I am showing some pictures of the end eaves tile and how it is used below.) Instead of leaving a blank tile face, various patterns, calligraphy and images were imprinted to make them look artistic and decorative. The four images on Feng's medals are the four "divine animals", which govern four directions/positions. They are: blue dragon in the East, white tiger in the West, black tortoise in the North, and red bird in the South.

This looks like a souvenir set for visitors to the Xianyang City, which was the capital of the Western Han Dynasty. Several mausoleums of emperors from that dynasty are located around the city, making it a popular tourist attraction. The mintage of this set should be pretty high, but I have seen only one set on eBay.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2017, 02:39:56 PM »
Here are some more pictures of Feng's set modeled on the four divine animals on the end eave tiles from the Western Han Dynasty. The tortoise is actually a combination of tortoise and snake.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 03:33:22 PM »
Just for information

1979 12-medal silver set of unearthed artworks was auctioned inside China (Beijing) in June, 2013 with an estimated value of RMB 1500. The silver medal weighs 10 gm/each. The auction was ended with no bidder. The set has COA (#2015) and original box. The mintage of this set is 3000.

http://auction.artxun.com/paimai-98590-492947832.shtml

Here is another auction inside China on 5/16/2016 for 1974 silver and copper medal set made by Toye Kenning & Spencer in commemorating the Exhibition of Cultural Relics Unearthed in China at UK in 1974.

http://auction.artron.net/paimai-art0055881694/

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 03:58:55 PM »
Fwang, those tile medals are some of the strangest i have seen.    I wonder how they came up w/ those designs way back when......

Poconopen, the 79 Archaeological 12 silver set did not sell in 2013?    4 yrs later to today, there are many looking for these Feng sets and none can be found.   A top collector/member here has been searching and can only find singles rarely in the US and in Asia......

I was contacted by another collector that has a Souvenir gilt set.    That is 3 of those sets that i know of.    I have the 1 CATTE gilt set and MAYBE a collector has another.     Lots of people are looking for these sets now.     Ebay has 3 Feng silver sets, 2 are Chinese Painting and 1 is Lu Xun.   Will keep a eye on them.......

I am a moth, Chinese Art is the light!....

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 04:00:01 PM »
Just for information

1979 12-medal silver set of unearthed artworks was auctioned inside China (Beijing) in June, 2013 with an estimated value of RMB 1500. The silver medal weighs 10 gm/each. The auction was ended with no bidder. The set has COA (#2015) and original box. The mintage of this set is 3000.

http://auction.artxun.com/paimai-98590-492947832.shtml

Here is another auction inside China on 5/16/2016 for 1974 silver and copper medal set made by Toye Kenning & Spencer in commemorating the Exhibition of Cultural Relics Unearthed in China at UK in 1974.

http://auction.artron.net/paimai-art0055881694/

To use one auction by a little known auction house as the price point does not seem to be fair. I would happily buy the silver set for twice the auction price. Recent eBay auctions of the set have been in the $500-800 range.

Offline ccl

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 07:30:07 PM »
Lots of people are looking for these sets now.

Would you mind setting the record straight on what you mean by lots of people? 5, 50, 500, 5000? Thanks

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2017, 09:17:18 PM »
500 million!     About 7 have sent personal email to me.     About 3 to 4 on badon's forum wants a set too but did not send a personal email.     Lets call it 10.     I think that number could be higher/lower depending on price.   Another member here messaged me and has a Souvenir gilt set but refuses to consider selling it.   He ain't stupid and will be anonymous unless he wishes to post.    He is looking to buy so he gets the picture and probably sells as many MCC as you do.    You may not believe this but there are collectors on this forum that are Feng fans like me.    I wish someone would list one on ebay so we could see selling price and number of bids.    The past selling price of these sets is close to $50.   Do you have one for sale?.......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2017, 09:46:51 PM »
Emails and photos keep coming in.    Here is another CATTE aluminum medal.   I was told aluminum was the rarest.    I have 5 of them and this Rhino too......  Photos belong to anonymous member here and he has only one aluminum.......The CATTE medals in gilt brass or aluminum reverse are different from Souvenir medals.    Souvenir medals look like the 79 Archaeological silver set medals....

Offline Clark Smith

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2017, 11:07:39 PM »
Anybody know what this medal is ?    It came with one of "The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation" sets.....
Seems to be gold plated brass....

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2017, 12:52:28 AM »
I suspect this is gilt brass, and from the hands of Feng Yunming. The silver medal of Sun Yat-Sen below is definitely Feng's work. it is well recorded. I also have a gilt one with the same obverse design. These gilt medals do resemble the silver one.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2017, 07:52:48 AM »
I found these on ebay sometime ago for less than peanuts, basically in my price range and they are Feng brass....not my photos, got them online....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2017, 07:03:54 PM »
I am posting because there are buyers for these sets......please list on ebay or contact me here....

Final tally:     1 CATTE gilt brass set w/ box.     7 CATTE aluminum medal singles.                     1 The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation gilt brass w/ box.        1 The Souvenir in Xianyang in China gilt brass set w/ box       1 Souvenir set but owner did not mention details.....

Any additional information will be greatly appreciated.....

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2017, 12:17:56 AM »
I am posting because there are buyers for these sets......please list on ebay or contact me here....

Final tally:     1 CATTE gilt brass set w/ box.     7 CATTE aluminum medal singles.                     1 The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation gilt brass w/ box.        1 The Souvenir in Xianyang in China gilt brass set w/ box       1 Souvenir set but owner did not mention details.....

Any additional information will be greatly appreciated.....
For your info, I have two sets of "The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation gilt brass w/ box" and one set of "The Souvenir in Xianyang in China gilt brass set w/ box".

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2017, 03:47:45 PM »
Heard back from another anonymous owner.    Final tally....

(1)   CATTE gilt brass set w/ box

(7)   "Single" CATTE aluminum medals (no sets)

(4)   The Souvenir for Chinese Excavating gilt brass set w/ box

(1)   The Souvenir in Xianying in China gilt brass set w/ box.......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2017, 08:29:08 AM »
Has anyone found anymore of these 4 sets or individual medals by Feng Yunming?      IF so, please post or contact me or Fwang....   All 4 are very rare if not extremely rare.     Much more rare then the silver 12 pc Archaeological set.....

The Souvenir for Chinese Excavating gilt brass set now has 4 sets plus 5/6 of a set w/ no box.     Prices are up so maybe more will come to market?      I asked a dealer/collector in China and he owns zero.     Fwang is right again, these tourist medals were sold to tourists and shipped overseas.        Early year unknown medals by early year artists should have very big potential.     (do i dare say explosive potential when a publication comes out?).     

Ebay 152787812835     Rhino                 $100
         382285519457    Kneeling Soldier  $35
         382282848495    Bird w/ ring        $100.11
          152795989912   Creature             $102.61
          382290068409   Elephant             $102.61

Missing Horse w/ rider.    Some are in not good condition, but so rare it may not matter much......Ebay photos....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2017, 08:31:32 AM »
More photos.....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 07:49:04 AM »
Higher prices has brought 4 more medals to ebay 282753451757   photos off ebay below....

Fwang, regardless of box, the above gilt brass look to be the same as Feng's Archaeological 12 pc silver set.    Could these have been struck first before the silver?....
The photos below of new ebay listing have words  "The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation" as noted on box.     Maybe these are the real Souvenirs and the above are gilt brass Archaeological set.....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 07:51:33 AM »
Rare unknown medals and more photos off ebay.....

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 10:43:22 AM »
Higher prices has brought 4 more medals to ebay 282753451757   photos off ebay below....

Fwang, regardless of box, the above gilt brass look to be the same as Feng's Archaeological 12 pc silver set.    Could these have been struck first before the silver?....
The photos below of new ebay listing have words  "The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation" as noted on box.     Maybe these are the real Souvenirs and the above are gilt brass Archaeological set.....
It is possible that the silver set recycled the designs of the gilt medals.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2017, 07:45:17 AM »
From the feedback i get, these gilt brass, aluminum, etc...  Feng medals are much more rare than his Archaeological 12 pc silver set or his other total 5 silver medal sets.       Not many of these in China so they were shipped overseas.   
I think the Archaeological silver set was struck in brass first but zero information on them as usual.       It would be good to own both silver and gilt brass Archaeological set.
There are some dealers/collectors in China looking into these medals.    Wish some China Mint people/NGC/PCGS/any collector would study them too and hopefully they are........

Offline beethovenooie

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 08:32:08 AM »
hello !!!  mike b. ..   (pandemonium)..you. find the most uncommon Chinese coins/medal!!.damn..great stuff..!!

how do you do it! ?..

I look forward reading.. your posts.. on both forums!..every week!..you keep me looking and going!..you don't get too much credit!...I love your insights..all these years!

your a good friend..helping me..with my mcc/m collection..plus thanks to many others..badon..frank w. and mark b..agnd ggoodluck thinhcat...and others....!!

oh..quick note...   member..mmissinglink...please contact me..at my email..thanks!
 pete      I still have my collection of many great wall medals!
 
                                                                                              whitedog1953@gmail.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 08:47:48 AM »
beethovenooie,   are you selling one of your 1984 Great Wall 3.3 oz silver medals?      If so, list it on buy/sell as there will be several interested parties on this forum......

Thanks, but i post to learn.    How else do we get private information?    Wish your Great Wall was mine!.......

Offline beethovenooie

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 12:40:46 PM »
mike,,..thanks for your question!.

i am selling my 1982-84..? 3.3 tael  ounce, matte silver..great wall medal !..plum tree version
one. ,,in great condition,,omp!    please ..send personal message to me.. or better .. email  me!        tx     pete             

                  whitedog1953@gmail.com 

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 04:50:54 PM »
fwang2450 , the breath of your knowledge on Chinese medals is most impressive.


beethovenooie , I sent you an e-mail a little while back today....did you receive it?

Offline beethovenooie

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 06:25:32 PM »
mmisinglink...I sent email to you,,tx  pete

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2017, 09:07:41 AM »
Sold for $255    Ebay 282753451757       4  Feng  The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation medals.    Gilt brass?  Aluminum?    I remember seeing some of these medals on ebay in the past but ignored them.      Maybe this higher price will bring more to market.     All these gilt brass or aluminum medals are very rare and much more rare then Feng's 5 silver sets.      The market is asleep but will awaken when a publication or article comes out.....

Rarest...

1 CATTE gilt brass set w/ box...

7 CATTE aluminum single medals...

1 The Souvenir in Xianying in China gilt brass w/ box

next rarest...

4 The Souvenir for Chinese Excavation single medals.....(have seen others in the past)

4 & 5/6  Gilt brass Archaeological sets w/ wrong boxes....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2017, 07:30:39 AM »
This group sold for a lower price due to seller based in New York and auction ending at 8 am EST or 5 am PST on the West coast.     Ebay prices are lower for off hours auctions or holidays.     I do not think we will see sets or groups of these medals selling for $25 to $50 anymore but i hope we do.      Maybe more will be listed......

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2018, 06:32:11 PM »
Sold on Super Bowl Sunday before the game.     Ebay 372204781553   $31    CATTE aluminum Kneeling Soldier.    See ebay photos...

Seller sold 2 Kneeling Soldier $31 each...

That brings the total of CATTE aluminum to 9 medals..... 2 Rhino, 2 Kneeling Soldier, 2 Camel & a Horse, Bird w/ ring & Dragon.

RAREST;  tie for 1st

The Souvenir in Xianying in China gilt brass /w box   1 set = 4 medals

CATTE gilt brass set box                                          1 set = 6 medals


Next rarest: 2nd

CATTE aluminum                                                     9 medals


Next:   tie for 3rd

Gilt brass Archeological sets in wrong box                  4 sets + 5 = 29 medals
 
Souvenir for China Excavation medals                        4 medals plus others seen in the past


Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2018, 11:57:16 AM »
Maybe Fwang posted this link earlier.     It makes sense to me a Chinese coin collector could interview Feng in China to write a publication but so far no luck.     I keep pulling chains to accomplish this task and will continue to do so.     The Grandfather of MCC medals should have some importance.     Some experts say pre MCC so no big deal while others totally believe in his contributions to the Chinese coin/medal community and have high regard for him.      As stated earlier, many Asian dealers/collectors have never heard of him.     The author of a publication should so well selling a book on Feng Yunming.....






here is the link:  http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4e39865b01009n89.html

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2018, 11:59:55 AM »
I will post here so i do not have to answer questions to others.      Please correct me if i am wrong or if new info comes out...

All the info we have on Feng Yunming including Fwang's translation blog, comes from Mr Yu Fuhui.     Mr Fuhui was Feng's neighbor and is a serious medal collector.    Coin dealers in China know Mr Fuhui.   
I believe Yu Fuhui is a honest gentleman.    If he was dishonest then that would be known.     His blog above shows his Feng info but his main blog has many Chinese collectible items.    http://blog.sina.com.cn/artmedal
Mr Fuhui is the only person i know of that has interviewed Mr Yunming and says Feng is the Grandfather of Chinese medals.   Does Feng have China Mint paper proof from back in 1978?   Anyone that holds that title of Grandfather of Chinese medals will have great importance in the near future.   
If i lived in China, i would make a bee line to Mr Fuhui and Mr Yunming to ask questions.    Why has anyone not done that?   
Hopefully others will see my reasoning in this post and this will answer questions.      IF Feng is the Grandfather of Chinese medals then why are his contributions ignored?....... 

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »
Temple of Heaven gilt brass     $33                                                Ebay 382528164829...Have seen 2 in 5 yrs..

Archaeological gilt brass   $25 each      6 total                                 Ebay 192602842215..
                                                                                                   Ebay 192602843121..
                                                                                                   Ebay 192602855644...
                                                                                                   Ebay 202374107980..
                                                                                                   Ebay 202374113293..
                                                                                                   Ebay 202374114007....29 + 6 = 35 total medals...

Ebay photos....

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2018, 01:57:33 PM »
RAREST in order      (non silver)
                                                                                                               Total known at this time
Temple of Heaven gilt brass                                                                            2 medals
The Souvenir of Xianying gilt brass 4 pc set  box                                   1 set = 4 medals
CATTE gilt brass  6 pc set  box                                                             1 set = 6 medals
CATTE aluminum                                                                                            9 medals
Souvenir for China Excavation  gilt brass?                                                         4 medals plus others seen in past/not recorded
Archaeological gilt brass  (same a silver Archaeological)                                    35 medals

photos on previous pages, this topic...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2018, 06:17:00 PM »
For those that have received my email,  Google to  "Feng Yunming and early semi official medals".      He is the Grandfather of MCC medals.   Stop to think about that.....

Hopefully i can motivate a Chinese expert to interview and research...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2018, 08:01:48 AM »

Temple of Heaven gilt brass                     3 medals               

Dealer in China has one and has seen a few on the market there but little demand as they are unknown....   at this time...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2018, 04:13:16 PM »
August 7-9 Hong Kong auction see results at spinks.com  Lot #2851   $338  USD    1st time for sale that i know of Feng Archaeological Finds 6 pc aluminum 25mm set w/ box.    See photos from auction.   No photo of box yet, COA is unknown too.    CCF member attended auction and said the set is aluminum, thicker medals too.      Archaeological Finds now in silver, gilt brass and aluminum.     Lets upgrade list....

Temple of Heaven gilt brass                                                    3 medals       others seen in China market...
The Souvenir of Xianying gilt brass 4 pc set box            1 set = 4 medals
Souvenir for China Excavation  gilt brass?                                4 medals        others seen, not recorded, a few boxes too
Archaeological Finds aluminum 6 pc set box                  1 set = 6 medals        just found at HK auction above
CATTE gilt brass 6 pc set  box                                      1 set = 6 medals
CATTE aluminum                                                                    9 medals
Archaeological Finds gilt brass                                                 35 medals


















Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2018, 06:28:14 PM »
Due to some comments, I understand how the game is played.   I do not want to pump and dump.    Have no interest in selling any of my Feng medal treasures.    Maybe to very close collector friends but none now.     I post to learn and the goal is for Feng Yunming to be interviewed.     If not, Feng is no spring chicken and he could pass before his past knowledge is revealed to the Chinese coin/medal community.     Then his medals and other contributions will have little value or no relevance.     Very important that we learn about him soon and hopefully someone will sit down w/ him and maybe other early year artists so they can comment and refresh their memories.....   I hope it happens...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2018, 09:53:58 PM »
I hope this link post to recent HKLink to recent HK auction....




  Lot # 2851 is the aluminum Feng set i think....

Click "previous lot" or "next lot".   #2849 & #2850 are Feng's gold horse
medals   $1,846  USD  &  $3,076  USD





https://www.spink.com/lot/CSS34002850



 auction...

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2018, 12:00:03 PM »
August 7-9 Hong Kong auction see results at spinks.com  Lot #2851   $338  USD    1st time for sale that i know of Feng Archaeological Finds 6 pc aluminum 25mm set w/ box.    See photos from auction.   No photo of box yet, COA is unknown too.    CCF member attended auction and said the set is aluminum, thicker medals too.      Archaeological Finds now in silver, gilt brass and aluminum.     Lets upgrade list....

Temple of Heaven gilt brass                                                    3 medals       others seen in China market...
The Souvenir of Xianying gilt brass 4 pc set box            1 set = 4 medals
Souvenir for China Excavation  gilt brass?                                4 medals        others seen, not recorded, a few boxes too
Archaeological Finds aluminum 6 pc set box                  1 set = 6 medals        just found at HK auction above
CATTE gilt brass 6 pc set  box                                      1 set = 6 medals
CATTE aluminum                                                                    9 medals
Archaeological Finds gilt brass                                                 35 medals






















Apparently the HK auction 6 pc set is NOT aluminum.   It is cu ni.    Those that attended the auction said this...

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2018, 02:36:45 PM »



Apparently the HK auction 6 pc set is NOT aluminum.   It is cu ni.    Those that attended the auction said this...
That is even more weird. Cuni medals are very few.

Offline bonke

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2018, 04:05:21 PM »
CuNi?  I doubt it.  I previewed the medals in Hong Kong a few days before the auction.  They looked like aluminum in color and finish.  They were very, very light in weight.  Unfortunately, I was not the successful bidder so that I am unable to verify my impression.  Hopefully, the successful bidder will submit them to NGC for authentication, grading, encapsulation and a metal test.  If I remember correctly, NGC charges $75 or so per coin or medal to test metal content so this may not be realistic unless the medals are, in fact, very, very, very rare.  I would imagine they were sold to foreigners in the Friendship Stores for nominal amounts and are to be found on back shelves of elderly tourists closets.

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2018, 07:43:35 AM »
I got the info from a dealer in China whose coin friends attended the auction.     Others agree w/ you and say they look like aluminum when viewing the photos.    I trust your opinion Mark and opinion of the dealer in China so lets see what content it is IF it is not locked up in a safe for then next 20 yrs.    Time will tell.    Wish we had photos of box and maybe COA if any.    I hope the children of elderly tourists start to sell their treasures on ebay as we have seen in the past.     It is a very rare set and most everyone tells me they have never seen it before....

Offline bonke

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2018, 12:31:02 PM »
Do I really care if they are aluminum or CuNi?  No.  I just gave you my best opinion based upon holding the items in my hand.

I do care if items identified in a catalog as gold are truly gold.  This holds true for silver and platinum.  As to the rest of the items made out of copper, brass, bronze, CuNi, etc., I do not care.  They were inexpensive items which were made to sell at low prices to tourists who traveled to see the world on limited budgets and wanted to bring some "junk" home to the family or as a memory of a particular location.

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2018, 06:48:27 PM »
I agree w/ your opinion for the most part.   However, Fwang also posted that some tourist medals are in demand/price depending on the artists so there are collectors that take it seriously....

USA watchdog   by Jim Sinclair & Bill Holter   "$174,000 oz gold not funny-scary"    Again China/Russia own the gold, the Yuan will rule.   This means it is very important to own Chinese money and even high demand tourist medals for Chinese buyers will have more value....

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2018, 07:07:57 PM »
Do I really care if they are aluminum or CuNi?  No.  I just gave you my best opinion based upon holding the items in my hand.

I do care if items identified in a catalog as gold are truly gold.  This holds true for silver and platinum.  As to the rest of the items made out of copper, brass, bronze, CuNi, etc., I do not care.  They were inexpensive items which were made to sell at low prices to tourists who traveled to see the world on limited budgets and wanted to bring some "junk" home to the family or as a memory of a particular location.

Mark Bonke
Some of the "junk" were designed/engraved by the best mint artists with the care and passion never seen again in the Chinese mints' history. Will any mint over the world ever produce hand-engraved coins or coin-sized medals like the goldfish and pagodas? The following tourist set was designed and engraved by a team led by Chen Jian, well before he started to work on pandas.

Judging the value of coins based on their metal can be misleading. The Xinjiang and Tibet 1 Yuan CuNi coins are priced higher than their 10 Yuan silver counterparts already. With more collectors going into circulating coins, the gap will only grow.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2018, 11:54:35 AM »
the link below and numbered medals correspond to photos 1 & 2.


http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_609ac53d0100xhki.html
I have marked all that mentioned

1.    Soong Ching ling

2.    Sun Yat-sen

3.    Sun Yat-sen

4.    Sun Yat-sen

5.    Sun Yat-sen

6.    Sun Yat-sen

7.    The white pagoda of Maoying temple

8.    Panda gold-plated

9.    Panda silver-plated

10. Badaling Great Wall

11. Liuhe pagoda Hangchou

12. Beihai park China

13. The god of longevity

14. Reclined Budda

15. Dunhuang murals

16. Temple of Heaven

17. Bronze Galloping Horse




Photos 3 & 4   5 & 6 are of Feng's Panda & Temple of Heaven medals.     Since Fwang's translation blog of "Feng Yunming and early semi official medals" came out in 2013, i have searched for Feng medals daily.    In that 5 to 6 yrs i found 2 Temple of Heaven on ebay and zero Panda medals. 
 
1)Was Feng Yunming a jewelry designer that designed a few medals then had no impact on the MCC market?

2)Were Feng's many medals the inspiration or copied design for all the pandas we see today?    Was his God of Longevity the first?    Was his silver 12 pc Archaeological in gilt brass & cu ni (aluminum?) the first?   Many other questions when we study the photos.   

IF/When he is interviewed, hopefully w/ other early artists as they can rejog each others' memories, then we will know the truth.    Does he have early year paperwork?     Could his designs be part of the foundation of MCC?    If his medals have value in the near future, could the entire market accept medals as a very important part of the MCC collection market?     Think about these questions and you may come up w/ more.....



Several of these medals in the 1st two photos are getting listed in a day, two or three on ebay.     Seller will not deal outside of ebay.   Will post when these medals come up for sale......






Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2018, 07:12:05 AM »
Looks like Feng's Panda medals got listed   Ebay 132768509285  plus some others........

Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2018, 09:15:05 PM »
Dragonzeng has 3 left, sold 2....   Ebay 153183780835    $56 each....


Offline pandamonium

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2018, 09:40:06 PM »
I get some negative comments and positive too on why anyone would want to buy Feng Yunming medals.     I have little experience....Correct me if i am wrong..

Feng medals are crude...   Some are but his are not official mint, mostly National Arts and Crafts...
Feng medals are very early year of MCC.. This is important as at least one opinion says he is the Grandfather of medals.   
Feng medals are cheap....for now yes, but so were some circ coins, republic, empire, etc... until Mr Sun's book came out.
Feng medals are only collected by few... yes, but many of those collectors are highly experienced and do not post here.
Feng medals are plentiful....no, they are low pop especially the non 5 silver sets, non gold horse.  Not enough buyers yet..

It is a good gamble to buy when MCC are early year and unknown.   Look at the 1988 Brass Pandas that were cheap and unknown until studied and information was published.  By then most were in hands of knowledgeable collectors/dealers that cashed in.

See 1st photo of 1984  35th Anniversary 3 pc set cu ni.    Ebay 153179412307  $240.50  Sold   I bought one or two of these a few years ago for about $12 ea., maybe less.   Mr Sun's book changed the market.   They look crude to me and 200,000 + mintage??   The highest mintage for a Feng silver medal is 5,000...

The 17 gilt medals (photos in previous post) were just recently discovered in one stash.    A stash of about 100 pcs and most have been sold.    A few came up on ebay, i think i counted 7 since Fwang's translation blog in 2013.    There maybe more in the China market that pop up.   Several were basically unknown.    See photos 2 & 3 of a recent ebay sale 173528670396 Galloping Bronze Horse or Kansu horse that sold for $16.50 listed as imperfect.    This might be the rarest one.   

What the market needs is for Feng to be interviewed w/ other early artists like Chen Jian, Yi Shizhong & Sun Qiling if all are around and not pushing up daisies.   Feng's former neighbor Mr Yu Fuhui would also be a good contact.   I was told that some early year artists show up at coin shows.    Interview them together to jog each other's memories would be best.    Not only would we get info on Feng's contributions but maybe valuable info on the other early artists.   

In short Feng Yunming medals have potential, are undervalued, and some are rare.    All it will take is one publication or a few paragraphs probably on a Chinese coins site first, to turn the market around for his medals......

 

Offline fwang2450

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Re: CATTE aluminum Feng Yunming set
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2018, 11:14:42 PM »
That cuni set of 35th Anniversary is Proof. Yours may be the MS version.