Author Topic: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity  (Read 2102 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
The debate over the 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity by Chen Jian  VS  1987 40 mm Shou Xing continues.    Size matters.     NGC has been contacted but no reply.    Can someone else contact NGC?....

36 mm = 1.417 inches (under 1 1/2 inches)     40 mm = 1.675 inches   

1980 36 mm  NGC has 4 or 5 pop?     Clark Smith sold a PF 69 two yrs ago  NGC 4263215-001      Dragonzeng had a PF 70  NGC 4312629-008     PF 65   NGC 4216986-017
1987 40 mm   NGC had 117 pop      NGC 3801749-011

Opinions on the 1980 36 mm;   It is the smaller version and very rare.     Have seen 1 in 10 yrs in the China market.    Surviving pop estimates are 100 or less, 50 or less but probably 25 or less.     VIP silver medal.   

Any information will be helpful.     Will post photos too.......

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2016, 08:17:46 AM »
The box says "China Mint Company, Shanghai Mint"......   Photos of recent ebay sale.    This OMP has been compared to the PF 65 and both are same size 36 mm and same silver medal.    The OMP has more frosting on the God/deer/staff so maybe the PF 65 has been conserved?.....

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2016, 08:20:40 AM »
A few top collectors/dealers say the 36 mm is the smaller version and very rare........

Online ccl

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 297
  • Karma: 6
    • Chinese Coins Live, LLC.
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2017, 04:15:13 PM »
Pandamonium, we have recently added:
1980 36mm Silver Shou Xing Longevity Proof Medal

This is one of more than 5000 Chinese coins, medals and sets we track for pricing data/sales.

There was a sale 10 days ago: $128.73 inc BP
http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/4188489.shtml


Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2017, 07:12:17 PM »
CCL, take another look at my photos and the one you posted.    They are not even close.     Not 100% sure what the medal is you posted but if i remember correctly it is a common, newer issue.      No way a real 1980 36 mm Shou Xing by Chen Jian will sell for that price in China.    Many in China are searching for the 1980 36 mm.      Could it be a NGC mislabel or a fake?     Someone here knows what it is.      A real 1980 36 mm is valued well over $2,000 as a top dealer in China told me......

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2017, 07:27:41 PM »
Dragonzeng had his PF 70 priced at $18,888 then upped the price, about $10K.   Clark Smith sold his PF 69 w/ asking price of $2,500 about two yrs ago.   It is still on Clark's sold list.     Another PF 69 sold for about $2,500 two + yrs ago if i remember correctly.    The cheapest price i have ever seen is $250 for the PF 65 that is not conserved and i have it.    Almost fell out of my chair when i saw it listed maybe 1 1/2 yrs ago.     Very important that we recognize and then double check photos to make sure it is the genuine MCC.      During my reading or emails, i try to keep track of the rarest (that i cannot afford).   I keep notes or have them on my computer favorite list.    This way if one pops up, it is easy to double check.   I will not ask other collectors as they will buy it in 1/2 a second.    For me it pays to do the homework.   This is how low cash flow allows anyone to buy very rare MCC for peanut prices because they come up for sale dirt cheap due to seller mishap.     The OMP posted above was on ebay titled "China Silver Coin" and selling price was about $226.    That is why i sold my 2000 frosty silver panda to pay for it.    Seems like a fair trade to me.    Other rare MCC can be had due to bad photos or other listing errors by sellers.    Lots of rewards for those that work for them ......

Online ccl

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 297
  • Karma: 6
    • Chinese Coins Live, LLC.
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 09:09:36 PM »
It would appear to me that the ones you reference were a mistake by NGC all along. The 1980 you think you have is the 1987.

This appears to be supported by:
1/
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4263215-001/
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/3801749-011/

to all intents and purposes, they look the same - right?

2/ notice how NGC have pulled the link to the census for:
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4263215-001/ (shows as n/a)

3/ the sale I posted (which appears to have strong resistance from medal hypsters, let's be honest),
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4319461-014/

it is the only shou xing longevity medal here:
https://www.ngccoin.com/census/world/china-medals/sc-366/silver/?c=915483

4/ you said you can't get a response from NGC on this matter

5/ the sale I posted DOES have a NGC census link.

This 1980 medal you claim exists is different to:
http://www.zhaoonline.com/jinianxilie-yin/4188489.shtml

and identical(?) to the 1987, the only difference being the 'width/ diameter' that NGC gave it, doesn't appear to be backed by anything that I see anymore.

I reserve the right to change my conclusion but the facts appear to point to a labelling error for the  (1980) CHINA SHOU XING - LONGEVITY 36mm which was actually the 1987.

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 09:38:01 PM »
Compare the zhaooline photo to mine.   They are not even close so forget the zhaooline as it is a completely different and common medal.  Have seen a few of them on ebay in the past.
Badon also says there is no difference between the rare 1980 36 mm and the more common 1987 40 mm.    I agree this is the real issue.    However, the dealers in China say there is a difference and the 36 mm is the smaller one.     They also say the 36 mm is a VIP medal w/ a surviving pop of less than 25.     I do not know as i do not own a 1987 40 mm.    The answer is w/ NGC.    You have a lot more pull than me, so if you were to call NGC then maybe we could get a response.    Could the dealers in China be wrong?    Could NGC be wrong?    We need to come to a conclusion on the 1980 36 mm vs the 1987 40 mm.   (Also a search on this site will show a 1990 restrike? for sale by Jay a few years ago.)   It is confusing.   Please contact NGC........This is the first MCC i have ever owned that the dealers in China were interested in.   Why?  if both the 80 & 87 are the same?.......about all i know......NGC makes many mistakes but are willing to correct them.   After all they grade 2 million? coins/medals a year.....
   

Offline fwang2450

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1009
  • Karma: 172
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 09:39:34 PM »
The fact is nobody knows when the Longevity silver medal by Chen Jian was minted. 1980 is clearly a mistake. The brass version was minted in 1981. In the tradition of Shanghai Mint's medal production, the silver version followed the brass version, because the brass version was minted to "test water". And typically the silver version is extremely limited in mintage, like the silver Plum Flower Great Wall medal.

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 04:17:51 PM »
Fwang, I appreciate your information but how can you be sure the brass was minted in 1981?    If that is correct then why can't we get information on the silver version?
Also in the past the 1987 40 mm shou xing silver had a pop of 117 and the 1980 36 mm had a pop of about 4.    I emailed M. Corley and Craig F. again but no reply.....I emailed NGC almost 2 yrs ago about this and continue to, but still cannot get a reply.....  For now i will trust the dealers in China....

Offline fwang2450

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1009
  • Karma: 172
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 05:03:07 PM »
The dates of early brass medals are mostly taken from the book "Commemorative Coins (and Medals) from the People's Republic of China - 1979 to 1984", the cover of which is attached here. The book was compiled by the Shanghai Numismatic Association, with the help of Shanghai Mint staff. Not all the info in the book is 100% fool-proof, but they are good references if there is no other information available. Unfortunately, there is no record of the silver versions of the brass medals, such as the silver Jianzhen, Goldfish, or God of Longevity.

The year of the brass God of Longevity is underlined in the second picture below.

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 08:12:27 AM »
Good news, NGC is looking into the debate of the 1980 36 mm  VS  1987 40 mm  Shou Xing w/ deer.     Also the Shou Xing w/ peach that CCL mentioned is being reviewed.........

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2017, 09:11:49 AM »
Ebay  391908565803   Seller says silver as they have XRF gun.    Looks like same box so maybe it is OMP.....rarely seen on West Ebay.....

Offline bonke

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
  • Karma: 29
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2017, 01:37:58 PM »
The bidding on the 1980 silver longevity medal reminds me of days gone past.  The top bidder has 49 bid retractions in the last 6 months.  Why bid against anyone who will possibly (and probably) pull his bid before the end of the auction. 

Mark Bonke

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: 28
Re: 1980 36 mm Shou Xing Longevity vs 1987 40 mm Shou Xing Longevity
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2017, 02:52:49 PM »
49 bid retractions in the last 6 months?    Ebay will not allow that.     When i retract 2 bids, ebay sends me notice and i cannot retract anymore bids.      There is no way that i can see how 49 bid retractions can happen unless ebay is just bluffing... Guess i am still learning about ebay bids.....
Why not bid to win it?       A bid retraction before end of auction means lower price......