Author Topic: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001  (Read 6706 times)

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Offline Russ 736

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New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« on: December 13, 2016, 01:27:02 PM »
NGC recently added the 1998 S10Y large date QRD-001 Panda to its registry sets. This coin is a quadruple struck coin so it is a minting error IMO. I am just wondering how the real experts on this site feel about this coin being considered a variety rather than just a minting error.

Thank you for your thoughts and observations

Russ

Offline PQPanda

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 07:12:01 PM »
I'd have to say that I definitely consider this to be a variety. Mint errors are more like broadstruck coins compared to doubles dies have always been considered varieties according to PCGS & NGC. I think that a quadrupled die with a denomination spread on a panda is insanely cool. The only time I've seen a denomination spread that dramatic is on the 1955 penny... you can clearly see the doubling without magnification & from my experience collecting, the more dramatic the denomination spread is, the more collectors are willing to pay for them. Just using the 1955 penny DDO for example, PCGS has graded hundreds of them (so a way bigger graded population) & they now sell for $8-9K in MS64 & upwards of $50K plus for nicer examples... not saying that should be the value of the panda, but I do think having this panda in any grade has a ton of potential. Stacks & Bowers wrote an article about this QDR panda stating that this is the first die variety ever found for MS pandas (so auction houses consider doubled dies to be varieties as well). I'm sure more will pop up in the census over time, but this is a rare find & the first for pandas. So far, there's only 3 of these QDR pandas graded by NGC & 1 of them is for sale on Ebay right now... and according to the experts at Stacks & Bowers, the QDR for sale on Ebay (cert #3549332-008) is the very first one found/ discovery piece for this variety. I'm anxious to see how the discovery piece on ebay does.

Offline NBM

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 07:32:36 PM »

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Offline NBM

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2016, 07:51:29 PM »
TY KOT.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2016, 08:40:39 PM »
A couple discussion on CCF about doubling and even tripling:
NGC 3793556-023,  2009 CHINA PANDA DOUBLE STRUCK, S10Y, MINT ERROR MS 69 as discussed here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9501.0  The error is designated as Mint Error rather than a variety.
Triple struck 2001 snake: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8062.msg46926#msg46926  It is not recognized as a variety so far.

Offline 1668Chris

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 08:44:40 PM »
QDR-002 is very difficult to find

Offline NBM

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 08:53:29 PM »
TY gentlemen.  N48

Offline PQPanda

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 09:21:55 PM »
I'd have to say that I definitely consider this to be a variety. Mint errors are more like broadstruck coins compared to doubles dies have always been considered varieties according to PCGS & NGC. I think that a quadrupled die with a denomination spread on a panda is insanely cool. The only time I've seen a denomination spread that dramatic is on the 1955 penny... you can clearly see the doubling without magnification & from my experience collecting, the more dramatic the denomination spread is, the more collectors are willing to pay for them. Just using the 1955 penny DDO for example, PCGS has graded hundreds of them (so a way bigger graded population) & they now sell for $8-9K in MS64 & upwards of $50K plus for nicer examples... not saying that should be the value of the panda, but I do think having this panda in any grade has a ton of potential. Stacks & Bowers wrote an article about this QDR panda stating that this is the first die variety ever found for MS pandas (so auction houses consider doubled dies to be varieties as well). I'm sure more will pop up in the census over time, but this is a rare find & the first for pandas. So far, there's only 3 of these QDR pandas graded by NGC & 1 of them is for sale on Ebay right now... and according to the experts at Stacks & Bowers, the QDR for sale on Ebay (cert #3549332-008) is the very first one found/ discovery piece for this variety. I understand some people may say this isn't super rare to happen with Chinese coinage, but you could say the same for US coinage as for you see doubled quite often, yet popular doubled varieties still carry huge premiums & are collectors' favorites. I'm anxious to see how the discovery piece on ebay does.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2016, 11:35:38 PM »
There has to be a basic definition of "by design" and "not by design". 

If by design, then it would be a variety.  Whereas not by design would be considered as an error.

Hmm.

Offline PQPanda

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 12:32:18 AM »
A variety certainly does not have to be designed. Just look up any U.S. pcgs/ ngc registry set... if that set includes varieties... anywhere from pennies to dollars... you'll see "doubled" in the varieties. Regarding the QDR Panda, it's not just the denomination that's doubled... the entire coin is doubled (or should I say "quadrupled") & is dramatic enough to be recognized as a variety. I checked out the 2 examples of mint errors posted on this forum... these were manufacturing errors, which is indeed a "mint error".  Although struck twice, look around the rim & you'll notice the strike is out of alignment. I think the confusion lies between a "multiple strike" coin & a "doubled die" coin. With the "multiple strike" / mint error coin, you'll notice the coin is off centered (which the same goes for a broadstruck coin or you will see an NGC label referring to the coin's "collar"). These will always be recognized as "mint errors" by PCGS & NGC because the errors are human &/or mechanical. However, with a "doubled die" / variety coin, the coin will be in alignment (I'm not referring to the words/ numbers/ devices...  the coin itself is centered) & to be considered a "variety", the doubling needs to be a dramatic enough difference from it's original design. Hence the difference between minting error & variety. NGC & Stacks are definitely accurate in calling this QDR a variety. I hope this helps you guys!

Offline eric

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 02:37:08 PM »
QDR-002 is very difficult to find

Apparently! According to the NGC pop report, there are 0 of them so far.

https://www.ngccoin.com/census/world/china-panda-series/sc-367/s10y/

Interesting they would make a variety designation without actually grading one.

Does anyone here have one?

Also do you guys think there are some QDR-001 and QDR-002 out there in existing holders? I'm no grading expert but it seems to me the variety is subtle enough that there are probably some out there in holders already.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 06:47:54 PM »
QDR-001 there are 8.

QDR-002 there are none so far.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 06:52:26 PM »
There are 692 graded large dates in the NGC pop.  I am sure there are several buried in there that their owners have no idea.  Good luck hunting around.  I have a few and find them quite interesting.  Will share pics soon.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2016, 06:56:58 PM »
A variety certainly does not have to be designed. Just look up any U.S. pcgs/ ngc registry set... if that set includes varieties... anywhere from pennies to dollars... you'll see "doubled" in the varieties. Regarding the QDR Panda, it's not just the denomination that's doubled... the entire coin is doubled (or should I say "quadrupled") & is dramatic enough to be recognized as a variety. I checked out the 2 examples of mint errors posted on this forum... these were manufacturing errors, which is indeed a "mint error".  Although struck twice, look around the rim & you'll notice the strike is out of alignment. I think the confusion lies between a "multiple strike" coin & a "doubled die" coin. With the "multiple strike" / mint error coin, you'll notice the coin is off centered (which the same goes for a broadstruck coin or you will see an NGC label referring to the coin's "collar"). These will always be recognized as "mint errors" by PCGS & NGC because the errors are human &/or mechanical. However, with a "doubled die" / variety coin, the coin will be in alignment (I'm not referring to the words/ numbers/ devices...  the coin itself is centered) & to be considered a "variety", the doubling needs to be a dramatic enough difference from it's original design. Hence the difference between minting error & variety. NGC & Stacks are definitely accurate in calling this QDR a variety. I hope this helps you guys!

To clarify a double or quadruple die in this case is not an alignment issue.  The actual die was struck incorrectly from the hub whereby the die has the quadruple image.  The pop will only be limited to either the amount of coins struck until the die wore out or the mint realized their mistake and stopped using the die.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Offline eric

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2016, 02:30:34 AM »
Auction ended with no bids.  :confused1:

If the coin were a 69 I'd probably have bid on it.

Offline 1668Chris

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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 01:34:10 PM »
Back up for auction which started at .99

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SUPER-RARE-1998-QUADRUPLED-DIE-Silver-Panda-QDR-001-China-S10Y-NGC-MS68-/222352451045?hash=item33c53d25e5:g:D30AAOSwJ7RYSyXy



Auctions are always exciting though risky for the seller!

Let's see what will happen with this 10 day auction. There is already some interest.

Good luck!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Online GoldenLord

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2016, 11:20:37 PM »
Sold for $730.
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Online GoldenLord

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2017, 09:47:15 AM »
QRD-002 Pandas?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2017, 02:39:03 PM »
Yes, I think it is the QDR-002 based on which direction the doubled period of the ".999" pointed.  For QDR-001, it smears toward the eyes of panda.  For QDR-002 it smears toward the "yuan" character.  Attached is a photo of my (normal) 1998 S10Y.  The period in front of "999" is sharp without any doubling.  

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2017, 03:39:35 PM »
Yes those are qdr-002.  Nice find.  I suggest you submit to NGC for proper identification and labeling.


Offline eric

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2017, 09:33:10 PM »
QRD-002 Pandas?

Nice find! If you want to sell one, PM me :-)

Online GoldenLord

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 04:36:18 PM »
Thanks, i hope to find more. Looks QDR-001 are often released to USA/China and -002 i have found here in Germany. Pherhaps they are from "MDM".
Ill have a look for more at Berlin.

Ill send the two coins to NGC over the munich Office and when they are back ill sell one here.

Offline Clark Smith

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2017, 02:59:12 PM »
Please PM me if you would like to buy a QDR-001 in NGC MS-69.  No spots or toning.

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 04:49:22 PM »
Here is an excellent article on the difference btw double dies and machine doubling:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5688/Double-Dies-vs-Machine-Doubling/


Offline Clark Smith

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM »
China 1998 10 Yuan,  QDR-001, MS-68 Quadruple die for sale,  Starting $1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/371838958204?

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2017, 01:53:43 PM »
The first 69 available for sale.   N66  given a 68 sold for $600+ this seems like a good price (disclosure...I collect these).

http://www.coinvault.com/newchina.htm


Offline eric

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2017, 02:28:53 PM »
Seems like a fair price to me, I bought one from him. Now I just need the QDR-002 ;-)

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2017, 08:57:38 AM »
My set is now complete

Offline Agpanda

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2017, 10:47:17 AM »
Congrats, a nice pair of pandas  :001_wub:

Offline eric

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2017, 09:31:02 PM »
You got lucky on that ebay grab! Congrats! I guess me, you, and GoldenLord are the only collectors that have the pair so far :-)

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: New Variety-1998 S10Y QRD-001
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2017, 08:38:07 PM »
I kind of stumbled on it.  I did not check eBay for several days and when I did I was pleasantly surprised.  I did not bother with a best offer just bought it at asking price.