Author Topic: 1911 China coin to see is to believe  (Read 20726 times)

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Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2017, 07:33:54 PM »
見識真幣刻刀痕...您說...好仿不好仿? N28

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2017, 11:48:59 PM »
您好..在您標示的4圖當中..各部分細節是大致相同大不同.就是說紅線標示的區塊刻痕各不相同.只是有不同程度的磨損.
流通幣需多組模就是讓同一個人雕刻同一幣種幣模也不會完全相同.您認為這4枚是同模假幣...我卻認為這4枚並非同模..真正同模幣各部位細節將完全相同.
底下放兩枚同模傷假幣供參..NGC假幣入盒前三圖這枚為美國華人所有..末2圖為中國大陸泉友民风所有...請您見識同模假幣的仿製功力


Yes, these two NGC certified coins are counterfeit and NGC had made mistake. I am surprised that counterfeiter can make such high quality fake, but stupid enough to make antique surface in the same area.

However, these two fake coins were not polished as bad as 4 coins mentioned before. I do not have time to show you additional identical pimples for those four coins tonight and will try to do it in the next two days.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2017, 12:02:59 AM »
見識真幣刻刀痕...您說...好仿不好仿? N28

Yes, it can be copied with current technology.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2017, 07:38:37 PM »
您好..機制造幣是絕對的秉持一個幣模一個樣.像蓋章一樣..任何細節的相對位置絕對一樣.就是說連此人物鼻上細微線條刻劃也會完全相同.模損等情況不計.
我個人不相信依目前技術能全盤仿製在原幣大小的錢幣上.
前面A.B.C.D四圖除非您能證明圖文的各相對位置細節完全相同.否則就非同模..
幣模雕刻工具與刻工刀法都有時代的特徵..老錢幣刻工為滿工..整個幣面圖文刻得細膩精緻.後仿刀工大而化之.在立體層次的轉折處交代不清.呈現斷崖式.
個人認為所謂的掌握機制特徵就是掌握刻鑿痕..或許錢幣鑑定公司也該朝此方向思考.

錢幣看真.看假並無對錯之分.至多只是反應眼力的高下而已..看法是否正確...等時機到了...自會明白.. N28

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2017, 10:44:33 PM »
首發..

老錢幣除了歷史價值.文物價值.還可遇見藝術價值.

不怕被仿.只怕不懂停歇欣賞 N28

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2017, 11:00:19 PM »
For those members who can not read Chinese, the discussion in this thread is related to the importance of knife marks on the detection of counterfeit coin.

Linlaujiou claims that coin with visible knife marks is always genuine, since the knife marks can not be copied. In his opinion, the four coins with identical deep scratches/marks in the same area of the device are genuine, since knife marks are clearly visible in those coins. He further claims that NGC MS64 coin posted in Reply #41 is a counterfeit, based on artificial toning, lack of 3-dimentional details in Chinese characters, incorrect style of Chinese character at 3 o’clock, die crack lines are added to the fake die and the shape and size of dots in the inner circle is too uniform to be considered as genuine, most likely is made by a computerized machine.

IMO, the knife marks can be copied, similar to the scratches lines. Clearly, those four coins were made with a die copied from a genuine/fake coin. The valuation of NGC MS64 coin was about $23,000 in 2010 HA auction.

Attached is a picture of the 1903 Fengtein silver dragon dollar found in website. IMO, this is another coin made by the same die for the four coins posted by linlaujiou. So we have quintuplet now. Additional pictures of NGC MS63 and PCGS XF details-tooled  coins are also attached to show the dots of inner circle is quite uniform in size and shape without any extra material in the space between the dots.

Just for information,

Transfer dies are most common practice used by modern counterfeiter. A genuine coin is scarified to press into die steel to make a working (production) die. In general, the genuine coin will be about XF condition, since mint state coin is too costly for counterfeiter, especially for rare one. The working die so produced will have all defects such as scratch marks generated during the circulation of the original copied coin. The deep scratches will create lumps on the die surface, so the same scratches in the produced coin. Sometimes, the counterfeiter will try to remove those lumps by chipping or polishing the die surface. However, if the counterfeiter is not skillful enough to fix the die properly and remove too much die surface, the resulting coin will show small pimples or short raised lines at those areas. In order to remove/mask the pimples, raised lines and scratch marks from coin surface, the reproduced coin will be polished by the counterfeiter. The counterfeiter also will add additional marks to the surface to avoid the detection. The collectors shall always be very careful to study highly polished coin before buy.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2017, 09:31:19 PM »
不要以為評級入盒就是真..個人看此兩枚NGC評級幣只是普通耗子藥..一眼假..描眼影技術有待磨練 N4 N4

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2017, 11:09:29 PM »
不要以為評級入盒就是真..個人看此兩枚NGC評級幣只是普通耗子藥..一眼假..描眼影技術有待磨練 N4 N4

Please post picture of a genuine 1903 Fengtein silver dragon dollar, since you believe that all graded coins by NGC and PCGS are fake.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2017, 04:00:31 AM »
 1.何謂包漿漸層?....懂嗎?
2.只要適當表達個人對錢幣的看法即可.其他....淡然處之..才是人生最美的姿態.
3.Take  it   easy  N28

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2017, 12:06:30 PM »
1.何謂包漿漸層?....懂嗎?
2.只要適當表達個人對錢幣的看法即可.其他....淡然處之..才是人生最美的姿態.
3.Take  it   easy  N28

This is a friendly forum to share information related to Chinese coins. Please post the pictures of your four "genuine" 1903 Fengtein silver dragon dollars, both obverse and reverse. This will allow us to compare your coins with NGC and PCGS certified coins which you claimed to be fake.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2017, 12:34:07 PM »
Here are high resolution pictures of PCGS MS64 1903 Fengtein silver dragon dollar Y-92 and Y-92.1(Manchu characters in center reversed).

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2017, 09:30:22 PM »
1.   謝謝再次提供PCGS64假幣入盒笑話兩則 N48 N48
2.   刀痕.鑿痕是構成幣面圖樣.文字.底版的一磚一瓦.
3.   包漿漸層的色澤差異會小至以單一鑿痕為單位.直接描線是阿呆.
4.   刀痕.鑿痕該怎麼看..會嗎?
5.     笑話6則打賞6杯咖啡N28 N28 N28 N28 N28 N28

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2017, 07:04:07 PM »
Thanks for such nice pictures of fake coins and provide excellent educational material for learning to spot the fake coin. Instead of posting the pictures of quadruplets of 1903 fake Fengtein Y92.1 Manchu characters in center reversed) which I had mentioned to be fake, you decided to post Y92, since I did not mention them to be fake when you posted the partial pictures in Reply #35.  In fact, I can tell you now that two coins of Y92 are fake and twin as shown in the attached pictures. It was clear shown in the partial pictures posted in Reply #35 and now being confirmed by your completed pictures of both sides posted in Reply #56.
 
For most collectors, the chance of acquiring quadruplets and twin fake coins is very limited. I am just wondering if you are associated to counterfeit factory in China/Taiwan and trying to promote those fake coins at this forum.   

Offline Little Finger

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2017, 12:12:16 AM »
Seems like the same scratches on both FengTien coins, the fakes are so good that you can only look at the fake wear to determine authenticity....

Offline Bearcat

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2017, 12:45:24 PM »
Thanks Poconopenn for your intelligent and direct comments... especially the point about possible ties to counterfeiters. Unfortunately clear comments about the "tells" of counterfeit coins educate the good guys, but also enable the bad guys to make fakes that are increasingly more difficult to detect.