Author Topic: Crossing over PCGS to NGC  (Read 4119 times)

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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 06:41:44 AM »
thanks Arif for the insight ! My experience is like yours and your analysis makes total sense ,I have submitted multiple set,s from one small hoard that was laying in a safe deposit box since 1983 with receipts to prove it ...  I sold a few of the sets in capitol holders raw ,they where pristine coins and I never was privy  if the buyers did grade or not ,I personally graded 7 more sets in OMP and some pristine raw coins  without 1 ms69 1oz or 1/2oz  ( the smaller coins did better) ..Keep in mind these coins sat untouched and untraded in a climate controlled bank safe  deposit box since 1983 held by a grandma who bought them as bullion .I purchased them from her heirs when she passed away... they where not picked over OMP as no one had even seen them for over 30 years...  IMHO the census with 14% ms 69 or whatever it is??  for the 1 oz or 1/2 oz is not reality :) trust me reality :) on coins in OMP floating around e bay or in auctions that have gone thru multiple hands may very well be less than 5% success on the 1 oz and 1/2 oz   ...again my opinion a pcgs graded ms69 coin should stay right in its holder :) certainly  cracking it out to send to NGC is a bad strategy .... try to cross it and if it doesn't just hold it!

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 08:42:14 AM »
one more thought   THE 1982 gold panda may arguably be one of collectors favorites and 1st in series so the total graded amount of 1 oz coins speaks to the quality of the coin most astute collectors have experienced my dismal results and are very hesitant to submit them as the coin is worth more in OMP than in ms68,ms67 the common grade .The coin is not really rare you can buy 5 on any day of the week. So why does a 1 oz ngc ms69 easily commamd 7 to 9 k   GRADE RARITY   same goes for the 1/2.   ,the problem is it was not minted well as Peter Anthony has mentioned on occasion .Ngc does not take this into account when considering grade.    Fast foward 4 or 5 years and look at the percentages of ms69 one would find the china mints quickly got better at minting quickly

Offline tater

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 12:28:40 PM »
one more thought   THE 1982 gold panda may arguably be one of collectors favorites and 1st in series so the total graded amount of 1 oz coins speaks to the quality of the coin most astute collectors have experienced my dismal results and are very hesitant to submit them as the coin is worth more in OMP than in ms68,ms67 the common grade .The coin is not really rare you can buy 5 on any day of the week. So why does a 1 oz ngc ms69 easily commamd 7 to 9 k   GRADE RARITY   same goes for the 1/2.   ,the problem is it was not minted well as Peter Anthony has mentioned on occasion .Ngc does not take this into account when considering grade.    Fast foward 4 or 5 years and look at the percentages of ms69 one would find the china mints quickly got better at minting quickly

So its rarity is not due to mintage like most think or survival rate like others but is so similar to the 1934 S Peace Dollar if you know your US Coins and is a true conditional rarity.  Interesting  Thanks for the good information.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2017, 07:40:56 PM »
one more thought   THE 1982 gold panda may arguably be one of collectors favorites and 1st in series so the total graded amount of 1 oz coins speaks to the quality of the coin most astute collectors have experienced my dismal results and are very hesitant to submit them as the coin is worth more in OMP than in ms68,ms67 the common grade .The coin is not really rare you can buy 5 on any day of the week. So why does a 1 oz ngc ms69 easily commamd 7 to 9 k   GRADE RARITY   same goes for the 1/2.   ,the problem is it was not minted well as Peter Anthony has mentioned on occasion .Ngc does not take this into account when considering grade.    Fast foward 4 or 5 years and look at the percentages of ms69 one would find the china mints quickly got better at minting quickly

I have to echo some of your thoughts on the matter specifically the difficulty with getting a grade for the 1oz and 1/2oz 1982 gold panda coins that is better than MS67/68. I haven't had that luck no matter how "good" my coins looked pre-grading. Therefore 67-68 could be regarded as the new normal for those 1982 coins (not the 1/4oz and 1/10oz).

I agree with the advice to keep the PCGS69 as it is. I have MS70 PCGS First Strike sets of some other years. It doesn't make sense for me as a collector to risk trying to cross them over to NGC if there is no grade maintenance guarantee. It is also possible that the current apparent predilection for NGC slabbed MCC will not continue on a permanent basis. In some ways it is already an aberration, given how widely accepted and highly regarded PCGS slabs are elsewhere.
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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 08:05:24 PM »
The pop reports are tricky to interpret at face value, because bulk grading and crossovers skews the results. 

First, over the last 5-6 years I and several others have been submitting PCGS MS69 coins for crossover and every time a coin crossed over, the PCGS MS69 pop went down by 1 and NGC pop went up by 1, this would skew the PCGS grading toughness in its favor. 

Second, when you submit bulk grading you specify MS69 as the minimum grade, depending on which grading company gets the majority of the bulk business only MS69 coins show up in the pop report from these submissions, the ones that don't meet MS69 standard are returned with no indication in the pop report of the coin ever being graded. 

There are other factors, such as NCS service for NGC has been around since early 2008 to help improve the grades of coins, coins that go to NCS go exclusively to NGC for grading, therefore they on average get better grades.  PCGS conservation services are unknown to general public and therefore those that submit to PCGS don't get coins conserved so on average grades are lower.  Finally, anyone that is knowledgeable about MCC know it is best to submit coins to NGC to get best price and liquidity, so those in the know often prescreen coins before sending in to NGC, while those that submit to PCGS are less aware of the MCC market and are less likely to prescreen, therefore PCGS gets on average lower quality coins. 

Finally, I watched the 125th ANA gold medal get graded real time at the show from NGC and PCGS.  NGC 18 out of 32 graded PF70 (56%), while PCGS 7 out of 9 graded PR70 (78%).  For silver NGC 381 out of 779 graded PF70 (49%), while PCGS 34 out of 76 graded PR70 (45%) - for silver my experience PCGS is actually tougher on the coins, but for gold NGC is tougher. 

The weighed score covers all graded coins, not just MS69. It is a fair method to examine the grading standard difference of these two companies.
 
Assuming 20% of PCGS MS69 had been crossovered to NGC, the weighed score will not be changed too much, since the majority of coins were graded as MS68 and MS67, as shown in the revised table.
 
The grading companies did not actively in grading MCC until 2003. After 20 years, most 1982 gold panda were in the hand of collectors and the chance of bulk submission by dealers for 1982 gold panda is very limited. This is substantiated by the fact that less than 10% of the mintage have been graded by grading companies after so many years. The bulk submission may be a factor for post 2010 MCC, but not for 1982 gold panda.

NCS can remove red copper spots and fingerprints to improve the appearance of the coin, but the coin has to be free of hairline scratches or other defects to be graded as MS69 or better. Majority of 1982 1 oz. gold panda were graded as MS67 and 68. This suggests all those coins have some defects and the potential improvement from NCS is very limited.


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 08:20:15 PM »
thanks Arif for the insight ! My experience is like yours and your analysis makes total sense ,I have submitted multiple set,s from one small hoard that was laying in a safe deposit box since 1983 with receipts to prove it ...  I sold a few of the sets in capitol holders raw ,they where pristine coins and I never was privy  if the buyers did grade or not ,I personally graded 7 more sets in OMP and some pristine raw coins  without 1 ms69 1oz or 1/2oz  ( the smaller coins did better) ..Keep in mind these coins sat untouched and untraded in a climate controlled bank safe  deposit box since 1983 held by a grandma who bought them as bullion .I purchased them from her heirs when she passed away... they where not picked over OMP as no one had even seen them for over 30 years...  IMHO the census with 14% ms 69 or whatever it is??  for the 1 oz or 1/2 oz is not reality :) trust me reality :) on coins in OMP floating around e bay or in auctions that have gone thru multiple hands may very well be less than 5% success on the 1 oz and 1/2 oz   ...again my opinion a pcgs graded ms69 coin should stay right in its holder :) certainly  cracking it out to send to NGC is a bad strategy .... try to cross it and if it doesn't just hold it!


 
The best quality 1982 1 oz. is packed in a dark brown wooden presentation box and coin is in an Air-Tite capsule with black ring. This package comes with a certificate from PCS and a promotional booklet of 1982 gold panda from China Mint. (Disclosure: I do own one.) I doubt very much if collectors who own this package will ever  submit it for grading.