Author Topic: Crossing over PCGS to NGC  (Read 4122 times)

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Offline Russ 736

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Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« on: October 19, 2016, 11:37:59 AM »
I have tried to cross over PCGS to NGC with mixed results in the past. NGC will cross the coins/medals over but usually with a reduction in grade. If you insist on the same grade on your application then I have had them reject the cross over. I started cracking the coins/medals out of the PCGS capsules and sending them in raw with decent results but it's kind of a pain to do. I am interested in any member input on recent cross over experiences with NGC to see if it's worth it to give them another shot. BYW, even though NGC says you can cross over 70s, I have never had that work. I'm just interested in 69s crossing over.

Russ

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 12:40:04 PM »
I have tried to cross over PCGS to NGC with mixed results in the past. NGC will cross the coins/medals over but usually with a reduction in grade. If you insist on the same grade on your application then I have had them reject the cross over. I started cracking the coins/medals out of the PCGS capsules and sending them in raw with decent results but it's kind of a pain to do. I am interested in any member input on recent cross over experiences with NGC to see if it's worth it to give them another shot. BYW, even though NGC says you can cross over 70s, I have never had that work. I'm just interested in 69s crossing over.

Russ

I have recently been successsful in crossing over a PCGS MS69 1/4oz gold panda coin to NGC with maintenance of the same grade. I have been unsuccessful in crossing over PCGS PR70 copper and brass medals to NGC and I had them return the medals as they were. The reason I tried crossover was to include the coins in the NGC Registry.

At the same time I have scored some spectacular MS/PF 70s recently for OMP coins and medals.

My impression is that NGC will use the most stringent and "objective" criteria to assign a PF70 grade to a crossover coin or medal. One has to assume that there will always be a less than 50% chance of successfully achieving this.

Will a PCGS MS/PR69 encourage NGC to maintain that same grade during crossover as compared to a "virgin" or OMP coin or medal? Will NGC graders ask themselves why a coin is not in OMP? These are just thoughts but I still assume that NGC graders maintain the highest level of objectivity and professionalism.

The larger question is why don't these TPGs subject themselves to quality control oversight by a central body similar to what you have for a lot of labs, manufacturers etc? This should narrow the variability of grading results amongst TPGs. I am quite sure that it will be easy to set up uniform grading standards for all TPGs. But how about the politics of it all. Furthermore, who will pay for the QC fees? Us?

KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2017, 09:49:37 AM »
Recently submitted one PCGS MS69 1/2OZ panda to NGC Shanghai, rejected for unknown reason.
Just need to use the hammer unfortunately.

Offline eric

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2017, 06:20:00 PM »
Recently submitted one PCGS MS69 1/2OZ panda to NGC Shanghai, rejected for unknown reason.
Just need to use the hammer unfortunately.

I would be hesitant to bust it out of the PCGS holder unless you know the reason. I mean right now PCGS is standing behind it with a MS69 grade, but if you bust it out...

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2017, 09:07:33 PM »
What year is the coin?  NGC is not crossing PCGS coins unless it is perfect. Depending on the year I would recommend cracking it out, the downside for 1/2 is very limited for almost all years as main demand driver is master sets which doesn't care about slab, just need ms68 quality coin.

In 2008 PCGS would cross over roughly 30-40% of NGC MS69 gold MCC into PCGS MS69 holders.  At the same time NGC would cross 100% of PCGS MS69 coins into NGC MS69 holders.  Today it has flipped and NGC is being even tougher with maybe 20% crossover percentage.

Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 11:06:52 PM »
I think I'll try to avoid the need of crossover, for example only buy NGC graded one. Grading is an art not science to me, which make crossover potentially being a way to suppress your competitor.

Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2017, 11:12:19 PM »
@Arif,   It was a 1982 1/2oz. Crossover for my case is just because of the market price. It cost about US$20 for raw coin submission to NGC, but the price difference between NGC69 & PCGS69 is much more significant than that.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 12:47:03 AM »
1982 I would not crack out.  NGC MS69 is much tougher than PCGS MS69, same goes for 1oz.  Put it away and hope one day PCGS is on par with NGC.

Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 05:31:12 AM »
Thanks for your advice! what a shame...

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 10:08:01 AM »
IMO  1982 extremely tough year to grade    especially at NGC  less than 10%  grade 69 in the 1 oz variety  and 1/2 oz is not much better leave the coin alone:)    I have graded quite a few very nice coins (over 10)  without a 1 oz  in 69   ,I have essentially given up:) ...thus the 6 to 7k price tag on a 1oz in 69

Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 10:16:33 AM »
Just check the census of 1982 1oz, there are already 145 @MS69, not a small number.
145 out of 1070, that's not a small number, a bell shape curve with mean @68, with fat tail on the low side,
if there will be one MS70, that'll be interesting.

It seems to be 14-17% graded at MS69

See someone got 2 out of 2
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/1830895162/
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/1830895163/

Offline Rarityhunter

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 10:35:51 AM »
That's an example of intensive cherry picking.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 11:42:10 AM »
trust me   14 to 17%  of total graded  at ms 69  ...does not in any way represent the coins that are left out there ...between myself and another prominent member (and I am only speaking for myself)  we have graded more than 20 1oz  pristine coins ..both of of us would not waste money or time  sending in coins that we did not think had a very good chance of being 69    all came back 67,68 .... NGC is VERY TOUGH ON THIS YEAR   

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 05:03:54 PM »
Based on the population data, dated 2/6/2017, from NGC and PCGS, I can not see NGC has a tougher grading standard than PCGS for 1982 gold panda. In fact, PCGS has a much tougher grading standard and it is statistically significant with a P value <0.05.

Weighed score is provided, based on point score;

<MS66: 1; MS66: 2;  MS67: 3;  MS68: 4; MS69: 5; MS70: 6

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Crossing over PCGS to NGC
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2017, 12:16:43 AM »

The pop reports are tricky to interpret at face value, because bulk grading and crossovers skews the results. 

First, over the last 5-6 years I and several others have been submitting PCGS MS69 coins for crossover and every time a coin crossed over, the PCGS MS69 pop went down by 1 and NGC pop went up by 1, this would skew the PCGS grading toughness in its favor. 

Second, when you submit bulk grading you specify MS69 as the minimum grade, depending on which grading company gets the majority of the bulk business only MS69 coins show up in the pop report from these submissions, the ones that don't meet MS69 standard are returned with no indication in the pop report of the coin ever being graded. 

There are other factors, such as NCS service for NGC has been around since early 2008 to help improve the grades of coins, coins that go to NCS go exclusively to NGC for grading, therefore they on average get better grades.  PCGS conservation services are unknown to general public and therefore those that submit to PCGS don't get coins conserved so on average grades are lower.  Finally, anyone that is knowledgeable about MCC know it is best to submit coins to NGC to get best price and liquidity, so those in the know often prescreen coins before sending in to NGC, while those that submit to PCGS are less aware of the MCC market and are less likely to prescreen, therefore PCGS gets on average lower quality coins. 

Finally, I watched the 125th ANA gold medal get graded real time at the show from NGC and PCGS.  NGC 18 out of 32 graded PF70 (56%), while PCGS 7 out of 9 graded PR70 (78%).  For silver NGC 381 out of 779 graded PF70 (49%), while PCGS 34 out of 76 graded PR70 (45%) - for silver my experience PCGS is actually tougher on the coins, but for gold NGC is tougher.