Poll

Generally how do you prefer the state of coins to be stored in your personal collection?

Original Packaging
27 (35.5%)
NGC holders
38 (50%)
PCGS holders
10 (13.2%)
Other
1 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Author Topic: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll  (Read 28456 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 25Grizzlies

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 0
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #105 on: February 29, 2012, 01:56:36 AM »

[/quote]
A memorable quote from a Newbie (Chinese?) here: "Accept and enjoy them as they are" and I would add: even with some authentic red spot or snowball on it! Just store them the right way. Keep your money in your pocket, stay away from this corporate (and their links) "grading bubble". If eventually you sell, the buyer will pay and take the risk for what he wants/likes, not you. IMO.

I couldn't agree more... OMP for me.

Offline 25Grizzlies

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 0
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #106 on: February 29, 2012, 03:17:09 AM »
I'm new to the Chinese market and am in awe of all you long time collectors and educators so please excuse my ignorance, this is but opinion and observation. 2 cents worth.

The more i think about getting my coins slabbed the more I think it will be with PCGS, especially if they soon offer a conservation service.  I'm still not 100% sure about conserving however and I wish they were more transparent about the process.  I'm OK with cleaning production films and grime off coins, as a painiting is cleaned when it gets too dirty, I think coins are Ok to be cleaned... but if I have a gem looking OMP coin I wouldnt bother getting it cleaned.

So on the PCGS/NGC holder debate it only aesthetics about the PCGS holders that guys on this forum don't like?  A simple case of preference?  Or do they stack funny or what?  I don't understand why the frame is crucial... I don't mind the looks of the PCGS edge view holders but haven't seen any in the flesh.

Talk of stricter grading at NGC is akin to a chess player taking their fingers off a piece and playing it again, it's against the rules.  I won't purchase any NGC slabbed coins or get my coins graded there as my small way of protest.

tamo42

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #107 on: February 29, 2012, 08:55:30 AM »
I for one have a personal preference for NGC holders because I think they look better. Many people also say that NGC holders are more airtight than PCGS holders, which is important for silver coins.

Offline GDG's

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 658
  • Karma: 45
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #108 on: February 29, 2012, 12:56:33 PM »
I just checked NGC site and found 20 Silver Lunar China Proof coins I sent in to have graded. All were removed by me from their plastic and then removed from plastic holders (1998 Tiger Proofs). I used cotton gloves (always do) and put them in non pvc flips before I shipped to NGC. I examined each coin very carefully and have been doing this a long time. I was expecting all 69's with a few 70's.

I received 11 69's and 9 68's. I was flabbergasted. This is proof, IN MY OPINION, that there are graders working at NGC who are inept. I paid over 1K for some schlep who doesn't have a clue how to grade give me these grades. I've been doing this a long time and know I'm correct. I'll continue to use PCGS again.I know that most CMC collectors like the NGC holder better I I'll defer to the grading service I believe knows how to grade. Maybe they caught my previous posts here saying  PCGS does a better grading job?  Who knows but I know how to pack and know how to grade. I like to have coins encapsulated to protect and some to sell but the rest of mine will remain PCGS.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2012, 01:21:39 AM »
If PCGS can improve their holder to match or exceed NGC's quality, I would run out of excuses to not buy PCGS. PCGS can only be good for the market, if they become serious competitors to NGC.

Offline glgehman001

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2012, 08:20:55 PM »
Here, here 25Grizzlies.

The new PCGS holders are nice, where you can see the side view, they look like the NGC holders but instead of having white gaskets, they have clear.  Watch the video PCGS' homepage.

As for white gloves, wow, this is such a selling technique it's sad.  On a colored surface a white glove will show you if there is dust or residue on the surface, if you wipe your smart phone glass with one, you'll notice it leaves behind a residue, most likely oil from your hands, just try it, squeeze the edges of your phone so your fingers go over the sides with your gloves one, see any spots? If the glass were more sensitive could these be interpreted as hairlines?

Now grab a coin with your gloves on, of course you won't be as harsh with the squeezing, just enough force to hold and transfer the coin  (this works best with a proof coin for the Mr. Wizard demonstration)  if you have a usb microscope, photo the coin before and after, now use your bare washed hands, make sure your have thoroughly dried them and try the same thing.  Photo the coin before and after  preferable a proof coin that you have a double of, same date variety etc.  You can even mark on the coin where you handled it with a sharpie.

If the cotton gloves leave no difference from bare hands, then congratulations, but the more coins you handle the more of a chance the cotton is going to lightly rub the obverse or reverse of the coin just enough to miss that 70 mark.

At least that is all I can figure out, cause the 2000 Australian Dragon I sent in was flawless from all angles under 20x magnification and from what I understand it only has to be flawless under 10x mag.  So from what I can tell it was my handling of the coin with cotton gloves, transferring it from the coin sized plastic holder to a 2.5 mylar flip, that lost me the 70.  Granted I didn't do Mr. Wixard's world before and after I just have before pics, and after it has been slabbed, if there is dust in there are a mark it is oftentimes hard to tell coin? or slab?

you can even use plastic tongs, best for beveled coins though, but the gloves are mainly to give you more grip in a coin store or when you are moving your collection around, and how can you get more grip if you don't have more surface area or a grippier surface.

If you have been around coins long enough you know how to handle them, you don't need gloves, by the edges only, with as little pressure as you can to get what you need done.  Just watch the grading guys, they are animals with the coins, and they don't wear gloves, hell I have seen them spin them by holding them between their fingers and tapping the edge.  I'm taken back to high school and paper football.

My 2 cents.
G

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2012, 08:40:10 PM »
Cotton gloves trap dust from the air, and the dust scratches the coins. Bare skin does not trap dust, and so it's much less likely to scratch the coin. The only way you can use gloves effectively is if you use them once, then throw them away and use a new set of gloves. Obviously, that gets expensive really fast.

I've done it in all sorts of areas, including a clean room environment. I've been involved in analysis of metal surface finishes, and polishing of "perfect" mirror surfaces. Only in the clean room were gloves used, and even then, it was only in a few special circumstances. Otherwise, clean fingers were always superior.

Dirty fingers can scratch coins, but with clean hands and careful handling, a coin can be handled and still get a 70 grade, no problem. It takes an expert to do this, though. When I look at unsophisticated people mishandling coins, it is clear they're not even aware they're damaging the coins. They have no knowledge of exactly how damage occurs and what it looks like.

It would be like trying to explain the weathering of rock by water in a stream to someone who knows nothing about atoms. They would look at the rock in the stream and conclude that somebody must have put all those round rocks in there. They can't see the individual rock atoms and molecules floating away one by one, over many years.

That's why most European collectors destroy ancient coins within 50 years. They're completely unaware that every time they touch the coin, they rub some of the metal away. If you ever get the chance, compare photographs of ancient coins in collector hands from 100 years ago, to the same coin today. If it still survives at all, it will have noticeable wear if it was in the possession of a "see with your hands, not with your eyes" collector.

That's why it's always wise to handle a coin by the edge only, and never touch the 2 flat sides of a coin. Wear on the edge takes a lot longer to become obvious. Plus, if you just never touch your coins at all, they can survive in pristine condition for thousands of years, and probably far, far longer.

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2012, 08:41:09 PM »
I locked voting on this poll now that NGC and PCGS are rapidly changing. We can do another poll in the future when things settle a little. It will be interesting to see the numbers then.

Offline glgehman001

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2012, 04:18:19 AM »
Excellent points, Badon.

Also, if you notice clean rooms used in the handling, production of semiconductors where humans are involved and you get down to the micrometer and even nanometer scales, 1/1,000,000 and 1/1,000,000,000, 1/millionth and 1/billionth of a meter respectively, what kind of gloves are the humans wearing, nitrile gloves.  Now I do not know how reactive these are with coin metals, but considering that gold, platinum, silver, copper and palladium are used in various semiconductors and computer pathways I would venture to guess they are non reactive.

They are also protective in that they are usually 6-7 mils in thickness and chemical resistant.  While you would obviously not want to have chemicals on your gloves while using your coins, a box of 500 can usually be had for about $15 or less, they are usually form fitting, if you buy the correct size and if you need to dispose of a pair between coins, you get a while box for the price of one graded coin, well worth the trade off.

I used these while dealing with various electronic equipment and chemicals and highly recommend them for that, as far as their usage in coins, I cannot say.

Although the cotton gloves on the market at 1.39$ a pair are certainly not 1000 thread count, are rarely form fitting and are useful if you don't want to wash your hands.  I still think that bar far non reactive coated coin tweezers are a better handling mechanism than gloves, but it takes practice and a delicate touch, something one's clean hands excel at and are the superior choice, best of all they are free.

For all intents and purposes if you believe you have a 70 coin and want to send it off to be graded, handle it with clean hands and package it properly.  The grading gurus may still find something to you may have overlooked, far and away your best chance is to use what the pros use in examining your coins.

Badon, I had a question for you, what type of surface to you recommend resting a coin on to use a magnifying device which doesn't allow you to hold the coin and view it?  Obviously you don't want to slide your coin on or off of the surface, but pick it up and put it down.  I usually use a sheet of fresh white paper, but even paper can leave residue and sliding....ugh.  Suggestions?

Unfortunately, I have 39 coins at Great Collections yet to be offered for auction, and looks like they won't be this or the next auction, I assume that he will wait until they have all be listed, sold and collected upon before we settle, but I would like buy a 5 oz Silver 2012 Chinese Dragon, can you recommend anyone?  It concerns me when shops sell graded coins right alongside nongraded coins of the same year and design, as if those not graded were the rejects, this may not be true, but it is the sense I get.

Also seeing as how PCGS will be including the COAs with the coins in the near future if anyone has purchased any of my coins from great collections (while most I sent in their holders with the coas to the auction house) I do have some coa's I found for the following:  98 HK 5Y 1/2 limited to 30,000, 98 10Y 1oz silver for "In commemoration of 98 China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition 50,000, and 10Y 1oz silver "in commemoration of Beijing International Coin Exhibition 2005 (30,000).  If you have purchased these (some of them may have not been listed yet) from me and would like the coa, I can send it to you free of charge, just send me a pm.

Sorry this message was all over the place...

Happy collecting,  now to just find a job and rebuild my Pandas  :(
G

Offline badon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Karma: -81
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2012, 04:56:43 AM »
Nitrile gloves are great, but are unwise to use near machinery. They don't tear away easily enough, so I always preferred old-fashion latex surgical gloves that would shred instantly instead of pulling your hand into "the chopper". Dust and debris sticks much less to latex gloves than it does to cotton gloves, but nitrile is much better at repelling dirt. Still, for coins, bare hands are always the winner.

As far as a surface for laying down coins - I almost never do that. The few times I have done it, I did on freshly washed cotton towels. There's much less chance of damage from a towel than there is from a glove, but cotton fibers do get in the way...

If I had to lay coins down regularly, I would probably use something made of black silicone. A firmer cutting board might be better, since its easier to keep clean. The first thing that comes to mind are the silicone TypeMatrix keyboard "skins". They're thin silicone, and they come in black. I would put it on a cutting board or same other firmer coin-safe surface. They have a lot of "give" to them, which makes it easy to pick the coin up without needing to slide it around. You basically just reach under the coin.

In practice, now that I think about it, I have actually used that method, except my "cutting board" was my TypeMatrix keyboard :) I used a large size Giottos "rocket" to blow bits of dust away (or into the grooves where they won't touch the coin). Keep in mind it's risky to blast a coin with any blower that doesn't filter the air. If there's dust in the air, it acts like shotgun BB's on the coin's surface.

The fact that I've gone so long without ever needing to lay a coin down is a testament to how strongly I avoid handling coins! I have examined huge numbers of coins, but I always kept them inside at least one half of their capsule. They were almost never open long enough to gather any dust from the air, but in the few cases where I saw some specks land, I was able to GENTLY blow them away with my Giottos - gently enough to avoid the shotgun effect.

If I were to put a coin under a microscope, I'd probably leave it sitting in one half of its capsule. Then I can slide it around all I want, without worry.

Offline glgehman001

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
Re: NGC vs. PCGS vs. Original Packaging: The Poll
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2012, 05:38:43 PM »
Again all excellent points, which is why I come to the man with the crystal ball.

I happen to have 2 sizes of Giottos "rocket" blowers which I would use as they were easily portable and the fact that you mentioned nitrile repelling dirt, I used these gloves when I was a Xerox engineer and would have to come in contact with toner which is most cases is smaller than dust, but when it piles up, yech, hate that stuff.  Wonder how much is in my lungs,

I too try not to handle the coins to much and now that you mention it I have used one side of an open case to view/photograph the coins under the usb microscope, that is usually he only reason I take them out.

When I have sent them off for grading  I usually leave them in their holder and then slip them into the 2.5 mylar flips, good or bad idea?  If I feel them move even the slightest bit in the holder, then I look for a smaller holder, but I am sure there are times that a coin in a slightly larger holder has gotten by me, and I'm pretty sure through shipping it may have been damaged just enough to take it down half a grade, therefore a while grade.

Thanks for your input.
G