Author Topic: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research  (Read 12398 times)

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Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2016, 06:15:39 AM »
Just from what i have seen, i like it.    This small, once a hobby, is growing up.    We need a service like this but it is too spendy for me at this time.......

Offline ccl

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2016, 08:12:59 PM »
Just from what i have seen, i like it.    This small, once a hobby, is growing up.    We need a service like this but it is too spendy for me at this time.......
Thanks pandamonium, we look forward to sharing more with you. Not sure if the free PDF was mailed to you or not, but it is available by visiting pandacoins.com

It has come to our attention that some users are finding our emails from hello@chinesecoinslive.com in their junk email inbox. If you were expecting something from us, please:

1/ check your junk mail
2/ add us as a known contact to prevent this happening in the future

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2016, 08:03:11 PM »
I joined CCL on a trial one week basis so my access is limited.     Have spent some time on it but not enough.    I noticed a glitch when i click View All Auctions it shows My Account.   Is our credit card information safe?     This market needs a upscale site for MCC.    Prices, graphs, widgets, photos of MCC, color charts, etc.. is what new buyers want.   I agree CCL could attract big money into MCC and probably will.     For a small collector like me it is priced too high but that is OK.     With the on line sites, books, price guides, etc it looks like this market is ready to rumble.........plus a world wide demand for bullion is of big help too.......low price era of MCC is coming to a end......

Offline ccl

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2016, 08:31:00 PM »
I joined CCL on a trial one week basis so my access is limited.     Have spent some time on it but not enough.    I noticed a glitch when i click View All Auctions it shows My Account.   Is our credit card information safe?     This market needs a upscale site for MCC.    Prices, graphs, widgets, photos of MCC, color charts, etc.. is what new buyers want.   I agree CCL could attract big money into MCC and probably will.     For a small collector like me it is priced too high but that is OK.     With the on line sites, books, price guides, etc it looks like this market is ready to rumble.........plus a world wide demand for bullion is of big help too.......low price era of MCC is coming to a end......

Hello Pandamonium, not a glitch, just not a feature available in the trial. Coins in auction is Expert level only. The GUIDE at $9.95 is the lowest price option. You might find everything you are looking for there if the $19.95 COLLECTOR license is more than you are looking to pay at this time. You'll get the links to the sales like the site, see https://www.chinesecoinslive.com/guide for more.

The free guide IS lightweight but serves as a free resource to share with those new to MCC/ Pandas.

COLLECTOR license includes the paid Guide.

Yes, of course all credit card data is secure and encrypted through a ssl cert. We use https protocol and STRIPE is the processor for payments.

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2016, 11:10:55 PM »
This quite an undertaking, I commend you on your effort.   I amazed you already have 5000 monthly readers, that is an amazing reach in such a short time.

A couple of ideas for you to think about.

1) Have Paypal as a payment option, I would never entrust any website to hold my credit card info except Paypal.  You could have all the safe guards in place, but there are hackers that can circumvent these basic protections.

2) The file sizes you are sending via email are ridiculously large, most emails have limits of 5-15 MB limit on attachment. 1MB-3MB should be the largest attachment size.

3) The biggest challenge with price guide is the quality of data, I scanned just a handful of transactions in the free PDF that looked suspicious and all reveled data integrity issues. 
It shows a 1988 1/2 that sold for $511, I looked at that one and it appears buyer premium is missing from the posted price.
It shows a 1993 1/2 that sold for $999, the transaction is over a year old and quality is non-omp, it is hard to believe no other transactions for this coin exist in the last year and having non OMP coins in the price guide makes the price posted highly subject to condition of the coin. 
It shows a 1993 1/4 gold panda proof sold for $349, the transaction it refers to is for peacock coin rather that panda.



Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2016, 07:51:04 AM »
You have 5000 readers already?    I would guess most are newbies and some w/ deep pockets.    Your site is what this market needs.    For me it looks like the end of cheap prices.     Good site and you can always make adjustments.     Please dispose of my card information in case of hacks.    Hopefully the crooks/hackers will be looking up Hillary's emails and not CCL's personal information........

Offline ccl

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »
We don't store your credit card details (only last 4 #'s). A token is stored instead.
You may delete your own credit card when logged in here:

https://www.chinesecoinslive.com/my-account

We use TLS. Additional reading here:

https://stripe.com/docs/security

STRIPE is certified as a PCI Level 1 Service Provider. If you haven't heard of them before, they probably have your credit card info already as they are one of the main payment processors.

https://stripe.com/gallery

Offline Birdman

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2016, 12:43:32 PM »
Richard Blair contacted me yesterday and asked if I would be interested in having access to the top level features of the Chinese Coin Live site in exchange for writing a review.  I wrote back saying that I would be glad to do so, as long as he was OK with me writing thoughts on China Coin Forum without him seeing them first, and I could not guarantee that my ultimate review would be positive.  And, I asked that I be able to post a few screenshots that might show some of the data.  He agreed.  As a further caveat, I would describe this more as my highlight observations after perhaps ten hours of tinkering, thinking, and writing.  That is all the time I have available this week.  As with any complex site, there is a learning curve to getting comfortable with the features, and it would take more time than I have available to appreciate the full potential and do an exhaustive review.  I would also say that I leaned towards looking at the features that are only found on the “Expert License,” as that was what many people were curious about (Is it “worth” $1200/yr?).  I gather that there are some promotional introductory subscriptions available for the licenses with lesser access, and many people are already taking advantage of those right now.

My comments

The marketing for the site says, “The Future of Chinese Coin Collecting Has Arrived.  A New Era of Transparency and Intelligence.”  Since it is marketing, we might forgive them for leaning towards overstatement.  Overall, I would say that it does give access to data that I might not otherwise have seen (transparency), but I would like to comment on the “Intelligence.”  Although it gives you mountains of data at your fingertips, it does not relieve you from thinking for yourself.  I will mention a few cases where blindly following the compiled data might have caused some issues.

Expert License:  “Coins in Auctions—A powerful and essential tool to see (and filter) Chinese coins in auction around the world right now.  A simple and convenient way to make money on the buy side and save time searching.”  This is a very interesting feature that compiles many auctions for Chinese coins in one place. 
Although there still might be a few bugs in the search function (for instance, when I typed in “china gold 1/2,” I got zero results?), I see the potential.  I remember last year I got busy and forgot about the August 2015 Stacks Auction.  As a result, Arif (keydatepanda) was without stiff competition for bidding on G1/2 and he got some at cheap prices. 

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11617.msg67761#msg67761

A reminder of a few of the coins that sold in that auction.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1C7IN  1994 G1/2 NGC MS69 $3,500
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1C6WQ   1995 G1/2 NGC MS69 $10,000
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1C7FN    1996 G1/2 NGC MS69 $1700
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1C7CJ    1999 G1/2 NGC MS69 $1800
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1C7B3  2000 G1/2 NGC MS68 $1,500

Given what has happened to G1/2 over the past year, missing that auction may have cost me many thousands of dollars. 
We, of course, cannot expect all coins to behave like G1/2 in a certain year, but this is a personal story that illustrates that, yes, I could have monitored all of these auctions by myself without paying for a service (But, I didn’t, and I dropped the ball).  I would imagine that this service would prevent you from missing opportunities (call it insurance against letting things fall through the cracks).  It appears the site currently covers 10 auction houses.  That is about twice as many that I monitor individually (and some of those sometimes only sporadically).   The “insurance” might not pay off at all for weeks, but occasionally it may result in a big payoff, because it allows you to take full advantage of an opportunity that others missed (and you might have otherwise missed).
 
Expert License #2:  “Movers—All access to the coins going up and down the fastest”

An interesting feature that highlights coins that have sold for significantly more, or significantly less than the last sale.  Since the “Expert License” is updated every 1-2 days, this may give you an early notification of coins that are moving up, and may allow you to quickly buy in your local coin shops or coins shows before competitors.  Conversely, for the coins that are recently big “losers” it may give you a heads up to coins that have become out of favor, and now are available at accessible prices, and may be good contrarian long term purchases. 

I’ll emphasize, however, that the data are only what the algorithm computes when comparing a few recent sales.  Before you go out and buy based on this information you need to double check the data to make sure that there weren’t any errors in the auction listings (more on that later), or to make sure that there weren’t other issues.  For instance, perhaps both auctions were indeed MS69s but did one coin have White Spots of Death or some other condition issue, or was one an MS69 Star and the other just an MS69?  The algorithm doesn’t do that thinking for you, and that might be the explanation for the changes in price in subsequent sales.  The algorithm does, however, crunch a huge amount of data and present you with some prospects to focus subsequent research.  That could give you a first mover advantage that could result in some investment advantage.

Many of the above comments were fairly positive, illustrating the potential value of the expert features to an investor.  I’ll balance that with a key “area for improvement” for the site.  It is critical that you double check the leads that the algorithm gives you.  For instance, one of the first coins I checked was the recent sales data for the 2006 G1/4 gold panda.  Three of the last four auction results the database provided were not as they seemed.  Two 2006 sold on eBay on July 18.  One was an MS70 and one was an MS69.  The eBay auction listed them as G100Y in the title, so the algorithm sorted the sales into the 2006 G1/4 category.  If you look at the auction, however, the coins are actually G500Y (1 oz not ¼ oz).

Another 2006 G1/4 (an MS70) sold on eBay on July 24.  That auction was subsequently canceled by the buyer (I know because it was my listing) and the coin was relisted.  The “sale” still shows up in the data that the algorithm processes, but if you go to the auction listing you see the message that the item has been relisted.

Clearly, just as my example with the G1/2 is not typical of missed investment opportunity, I’m certain that majority of the data do not have the number of issues that this 2006 G1/4 subsample does.  I include it, however, just because it illustrates a point.  You need to double check the data on your leads.  One nice feature of the Chinese Coins Live site is that after each auction listing there is a button to click to go to the actual auction results.  This makes following up on things easy.  I mentioned this 2006 G1/4 issues to Richard and he pointed out that there is a convenient way to flag any result that appears to have a problem and they will double check the listing. That may be true, and by the time the data becomes available to the “Collector” license one week later, many of the problem listings might have been addressed.  Having said that, if you are one of the “Expert” licensees who is eagerly scanning the data as soon as it is generated by the algorithms, keep in mind that all of it is not examined for issues before it becomes available.  I imagine that some sort of data review and proofing is on the list of areas to address by the people at Chinese Coins Live as the continue to improve this new website. 

That’s all I have time for folks.  Let me summarize by saying that the Chinese Coins Live site is a powerful construct that allows access to huge quantities of data.  Many of its features may indeed represent the future of how coin data is processed.  Just keep in mind, though, that it can be like sipping water from a fire hose, so just be careful.  With all that power comes a risk of letting the black box computing do all the thinking for you.  If you recognize the strengths and limitations of the process, however, I think it can allow significant advantages.  It can save time and prevent you from letting opportunities slip through the cracks.  It can give you early notice of pricing trends.

Taking a quick glance at the features shared by the entry-level-price “collector” level, there are plenty of interesting information available at a more basic price of $19.95 per month.  You will have to determine whether it is worth the price for you.  One way to look at it is that $19.95 per month is the price of several Starbucks drinks or one dinner out.  Does having access to those data give you an equal amount of pleasure of insights in your collecting and investing?  If so, it might be worth trying it for a month to play around.  Or try one of the promotional rates that I hear are being offered.

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2016, 01:47:58 AM »
We don't store your credit card details (only last 4 #'s). A token is stored instead.
You may delete your own credit card when logged in here:

https://www.chinesecoinslive.com/my-account

We use TLS. Additional reading here:
https://stripe.com/docs/security
STRIPE is certified as a PCI Level 1 Service Provider. If you haven't heard of them before, they probably have your credit card info already as they are one of the main payment processors.
https://stripe.com/gallery

With PayPal I have two layers of protection, PayPal and my credit card company.  With Stripe I have just my credit card company to file dispute with if my information gets stolen. 

Offline Birdman

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2016, 07:01:43 AM »
My temporary guest license to the site expires in a few days, so if you have any other curiosities, let me know, and I can log on and have a final look, and give you an every day forum member perspective.  Of course, I'm sure Richard would be happy to continue to answer any questions you have about the website.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2016, 07:51:17 AM »
CCL is a game changer.    5,000 readers?      How many are paying members?     At $99 month X 1,000 = about $100,000 month.     Now that will buy some rare pandas.    To the victor the spoils.....

Offline bonke

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2016, 12:40:57 PM »
The comments are interesting.

I do not believe the new product will be a game changer for collectors or investors.

In the past, we have discussed the difference between dealers, investors and collectors.  As a dealer, it is critical to know the current "dealer-to-dealer  price," the "retail price" and price trends for a coin or medal so that the dealer may decide whether the spread creates an opportunity for a short term profit.  The dealer must keep turning his or her money over quickly to maximize profit.  The investor may have a longer view of the market, and real-time prices and price trends may not be as important.  Collectors are an altogether different breed.  A collector may purchase because of an "attractive" design, the condition, the price or just because their daughter was born in the year of the Dragon and the coin has a Dragon design.

As a collector who purchases most items for my collection at coin shows or at auctions, current "dealer-to-dealer prices" are not important because the dealers never seem to sell to me at these prices and the "retail price" for previous transactions is not important because I must decide whether to buy an item from a particular dealer at a coin show for his or her price or I must decide whether to continue bidding on an item in an auction.  I am creating the "retail price" as I make these decisions.  Am I wrong when I make these decisions?  Often!  Would a better price list help me?  Normally, not!  [I carry Peter's price list with me at shows and auctions, and I do refer to it as I make my collector decisions.] 

The world is afloat with modern Chinese coins.  Imagine.  Heritage will hold an auction at the ANA show in Anaheim.  Eurseree will hold an auction in Bangkok, Thailand.  Stacks, Spinks, Rarehouse, Champion and Baldwins will hold auctions in Kowloon.  All of these auctions will be held during the month of August.  And I do not follow the auctions in mainland China, Japan or Europe (unless they send me a catalog).  Along with these auctions, coin dealers are completing an untold number of purchases and sales which are mostly unreported.  And then there is the internet (Ebay, dealer web sites, domestic & foreign online auctions, etc.).

I am pleased to be a small collector and not an investor or coin dealer.

Mark Bonke

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2016, 02:08:25 PM »
It's funny....I must have tried to buy coins dozens of times using market prices from the pricepedia.  The response is always the same....sorry but I'm into the coin for more than that so I will just wait or that's nice but I want $x.

From my perspective at least I don't overpay which is where the real value for me comes.

Offline silberschatzimsee

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2016, 04:27:35 PM »
It's funny....I must have tried to buy coins dozens of times using market prices from the pricepedia.  The response is always the same....sorry but I'm into the coin for more than that so I will just wait or that's nice but I want $x.

From my perspective at least I don't overpay which is where the real value for me comes.

Then there will be no deal with me if a dealer demands "top of the moon prices".  I bet he got it for a fraction of inheritance-sale anyway. N8

Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: "Chinese Coins Live." A competiting subscription for pricing research
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2016, 05:35:56 PM »
Then there will be no deal with me if a dealer demands "top of the moon prices".  I bet he got it for a fraction of inheritance-sale anyway. N8

It doesn't matter what price the dealer or collector paid for the coin, what matters is how much they want for it and whether you think it is a fair price.  I can tell you from experience buyers that are more concerned with the thickness of the seller's wallet, rather than making an objective purchase decision will miss out on many great opportunities to buy undervalued coins.  I pay up to buy coins I need even if the person I am buying them from paid melt to acquire the coin a few hours earlier, it doesn't matter how much money he is making, I just want the coins in my collection or business inventory.

When I price coins I never look at pricepedia, NGC price guide or PCGS price guide, what I look at is recent sales on ebay, Stacks, Heritage and Zhou (just those 4 for good reason, can't say why publicly), then I look at my current replacement cost (not my original acquisition cost) and likelihood to be able to replace the coin in timely manner, then my comparison of value to other coins of similar rarity, then my cash flow needs, then I arrive at a price.  That price could be 10-20% below pricepedia or 10-100% above pricepedia, it all comes down to my own supply and demand analysis.  For example there are many 1oz NGC MS69 coins I can sell for 10% below pricepedia because I know sellers that I can replace the coins with, while certain 1/2 and 1/4 my prices are 30% above pricepedia, because I know once the coin sells I can't replace it.