Author Topic: Graded Coins in China  (Read 9067 times)

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Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 08:36:22 PM »
I have done it for very rare and valuable coins, where the cost is insignificant. For the most part though, coins should get conserved up front. I have considered buying some ugly coins to get them conserved and regraded, but I haven't had the guts yet.

Offline pandaclaus

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2011, 01:26:43 PM »
Quote
At what cost and effort? I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. I won't live that long to see the difference anyway :)

Dobedo - It don't take long. Have a look at this MS69 2009 coin, that I just received and I got another... Both going back for a refund, but they are out there...  :w00t:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1776.0

That coin was graded at MS69 at some point in its short life. I have two are now worth melt. When were they graded? who knows but certainly not more than 2 years ago. Conservation may have prevented the deterioration.

Personally I reckon conservation should be included in any coin grading service as standard, not as an add on but a requirement.

The way I see it is like this... Here in the UK, to use/keep a vehicle on the road, we have to have a vehicle road tax license. A license (ie grading)will not be issued without a vehicle roadworthy test certificate from a registered testing station (ie conservation).

The conservation then goes hand in hand with the grading and subsequently protects the investment as best it can.

It'll make grading more expensive though....

Just some thoughts  :001_cool:


 


Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Amen.

Offline larrydreher

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2011, 02:36:47 PM »
Just my own personal thoughts....  It is not very well understood what causes milk spotting on silver coins.  Lots of people have opinions but I've nver seen a scientific study with peer reviewed conclusions.  I'm not aware of any evidence that conservation (ie an acetone bath) would prevent them.

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 02:56:33 PM »
Nonetheless, the probability that the cause is something soluble in acetone is pretty high. In other words, there's lots of reasons to suspect conservation can prevent the problem, and only a few, very odd reasons why conservation would not be able to prevent the problem.

In short, the white spots would have to be roughly equivalent to the "copper" spot toning, but be vulnerable to reactions much deeper into the metal surface. The reactants would have to come from either the metal itself, or some of the reactants would have to come from the metal, and some from the air. I think this is unlikely.

Off the  top of my head, I can't think of anything that's within the metal that can corrode it deeply in a manner similar to "bronze disease". Until proven otherwise, my best guess is that one of the reactants come from the air and/or a foreign residue, and the other is the silver metal itself.

The white color looks to me like silver chloride:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_chloride

If the planchets were pickled in an acid bath to clean and "shine" them up, but the rinsing were incomplete, there would be enough chlorine on the coin to gradually react with the silver, producing white spots. Exposure to the air would provide the moisture needed to ionize the chlorine, and make it reactive. I think that's why the spots don't appear until later - sometimes only after a coin's packaging has been opened, which provides more moisture.

Compounds containing calcium, sodium, etc would be able to neutralize the chlorine, assuming the acetone and/or water alone were not enough to dissolve the residues and rinse it away. Mineral water contains calcium ions that would pick up the chlorine and wash it away. A following rinse with distilled water, alcohol, and/or acetone would remove the remaining calcium ions from the mineral water.

The procedure used at NCS is probably not much different from what I described, though I'm not sure of the exact details.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 09:33:15 PM »
Those milk spots might be impossible to remove because they may have been from the planchet used to strike the coin. Please refer to the following link for the feedback from somebody from NCS.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3990846#Post3990846

I've read in an NGC chat board that these "struck-in" milk spots that came from the manufacturing process of the coin are ignored by NGC when grading. When grading coins, NGC only looks at defects that were introduced to the coin after it was manufactured. This may be the reason why some coins get graded as MS69 even if they have milk spots.

Offline pandaclaus

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2011, 05:43:51 AM »
Thanks mr slick, that may well go some way to answer the milk spots, any ideas what caused the corrosion around the edge of the coin? I'll ask NGC for a copy of the pic they have on file and see if anything can be highlighted.

Whatever it is has not affected the obverse of the coin, as that is fine.

Thanks everybody.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »
I am not sure what cause the corrosion around the edge of the coin. However, I suggest that you post the picture of your coin and ask NCS at the discussion board that I attached previously. Chris, who works for NCS, might be able to answer your question. My guess though is that the capsule of the coin was opened before the coin was graded and the coin's surface got into contact with something that caused the change on the edges.

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2011, 12:01:53 AM »
Those milk spots might be impossible to remove because they may have been from the planchet used to strike the coin. Please refer to the following link for the feedback from somebody from NCS.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3990846#Post3990846

I've read in an NGC chat board that these "struck-in" milk spots that came from the manufacturing process of the coin are ignored by NGC when grading. When grading coins, NGC only looks at defects that were introduced to the coin after it was manufactured. This may be the reason why some coins get graded as MS69 even if they have milk spots.

"Seen on silver coins, milk spots are created from chemicals used in the manufacture of the planchet before being struck into the finished coin. This struck in nature makes them impossible to safely remove through conservation. U.S. struck silver coins of the 1950's are most famous for having milk spots but many modern issues are also known to develop these kinds of spots."

Once they appear, it is well-known that they cannot be removed. However, I suspect conservation can PREVENT them from appearing. I am skeptical that aqueous chemicals can be "struck-in" deeply enough that they can't be removed with a solvent wash of some sort.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 10:22:35 AM »
It has been more than 2 years since this question was posed and much has changed in the MCC market since then. It would be interesting to get some fresh views on this subject so I`ll ask the question again:

How well received are NGC/PCGS modern coins by buyers in China?

There are more participants from China on the Forum now and those views would be of special interest.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 11:22:29 AM »
I looked up XuHong's eBay store yesterday and was struck by how many graded coins he is carrying now.  Most of the OMP are after yr2000.  Most coins before yr2000 are in slabs.  This is very different than what I remembered a few months back.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 11:43:13 AM »
Sandac,

When I started this topic as I recall there were no graded coins in China dealer`s inventory. Currently Xuhong`s eBay inventory runs about 30% for silver pandas. Other traditional China OMP sellers are selling more graded coins as well.

Regards,

Pandamania

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 11:45:30 AM »
I might add that all of his graded silver panda inventory is in NGC coins.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 03:04:59 PM »
There was a reply earlier that in the last 6 months, the Chinese auctions are getting a higher premium now for grade 69 & 70 MCC as that is what the buyers want.  The market is maturing......

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2013, 01:17:19 AM »
Dealers are still selling mostly OMP in the local market.  However,  online auctions like zhaoonline transitioned to almost all NGC coins since later 2011.  NGC commands 20-30% premium to pcgs with same grade.  And 30-40% to raw coins.