Author Topic: Graded Coins in China  (Read 9838 times)

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Offline pandamania

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Graded Coins in China
« on: November 13, 2010, 05:17:57 PM »
How well received are NGC/PCGS modern coins by buyers in China.

Offline Zerosum

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2010, 05:34:25 PM »
Good question. I've been wondering this myself. Anyone?

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2010, 05:39:22 PM »
Pretty well now. If you look at the photos from the coin shows in China, you'll see that many of the dealers there are selling only graded coins. If the buyers weren't buying, then the sellers wouldn't be selling. See for yourself:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=910.0

KonaJim

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2010, 05:43:07 PM »
I can say that the Chinese buyers that I work with seem to be very pleased to have graded coins.  They do like anyone also appreciate having the original box and COA.  A year ago I was very relunctant to break an original piece.  I felt as though the coin, the box, and the COA should be preserved in their original state.  Now however I feel differently.  Coins are about grading.  Could you imagine buying a diamond in a plastic package and then one day hoping it was high grade?  Grade is paramount, look at the difference in what a MS 67 versus a MS 69 brings today.  Hopefully some Chinese buyers will voice their opinions.

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2010, 05:48:08 PM »
In addition to that, the original packaging actually harms the coins by depositing corrosive chlorine compounds on the surface. I've seen even gold coins permanently damaged this way (no coin is 100% gold).

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 08:34:25 AM »
There seemed to be an abundance of NGC graded coins in the Hong Kong Show pictures. Would this tend to indicate that NGC are more in demand and therefore what dealers carry. Or that PCGS are more in demand and the NGC`s are what dealers have left?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 11:18:13 AM »
NGC has grading service inside China, starting later last year, while PCGS does not.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 12:07:17 PM »
NGC seems to have established itself quite well in China within a year. Do you suppose that the long term effect will have Chinese buyers gravitate toward NGC as the predominant grading authority?

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 03:56:48 PM »
Yes, NGC is the most popular grader for Chinese coins worldwide. They have the fastest turnaround time, and the most expertise. They respond to new discoveries and new needs in the Chinese coin market faster than PCGS too. For example, I think PCGS still can't encapsulate large size coins yet. NGC has been doing it for around 2 years now, maybe longer.

Offline chinaconbuyer

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 06:32:34 PM »
If you are tired of examining the quality of the coins through double re-sealed plastics in China, your desire for a graded coin would be pretty good. Owing hard to find coins raise a sense of pride, but one with some blemish would be a different feeling, is it? - You can bet on the demand in China. 
If you have any modern China coin for sale or have any question for China coins, email me: ChinaCoinBuyer@gmail.com  I offer high price for China coins.

Offline Kamil

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 10:42:56 AM »
Dear Sirs and Madams,

thank you for your wonderful forum full of news and nice stories (and the great pics - of course) about chinese coins.
Although this thread is a bit old, I would like to revive it with some observations from chinese auctions:

3x 1/2oz Au 3 Kingdoms graded vs ungraded - $650 difference are too much as a premium for this grading (PF68UC-PF68UC-PF69UC)? Especially when compared to the $18.4k realized at Champion Auction 12, lot #517, in early December and the jibi reference from 21-12-10 with RMB120k.

Second, the 1992 I&D 1oz Au set in PF69 Ultra gained "only" 10% over jibi reference. Although jibi overprices coins when it comes to sums of $100k and above at about 10% (imo - you may judge by yourself, of course), the "lower" prices seem to be quite accurate.


Given these (only few) examples, would you recommend to pay a (big) premium for (excellent) graded scarce coins? There seems to be almost no reward in china in the upper money regions. (And since no one knows if it was conservated except the one who sent it to NCS, I wont pay a penny extra for a coin sold as conservated). Maybe it`s better rewarded and thus more advisable when dealing with coins with a higher mintage? Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic, they will be highly appreciated.



PS to the I&D-set: I didn`t know that the chinese invented the "urn". Thanks to NGC, this obviously important milestone in history is now known to me, finally  :thumbup:



Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 02:51:41 PM »
I do recommend paying the premium for excellent graded rare coins. The market for these is immature, and will only get stronger. Already, in the silver coins, we're sometimes seeing HUGE premiums being paid for top-quality graded rare coins, over raw coins of unknown condition or authenticity. In some cases, the premium has reached almost 100% - that's DOUBLE for a top-grade coin, over a raw coin.

Big price differences are going to become more common, as more and more low-quality coins are left raw, while the best coins get graded.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 07:49:06 PM »
I like graded coins because they make the coins easier to look at, easier to store, and the slabs protect the coins very well compared to the original packaging. There are other reasons why I prefer coins to be graded like assurance of authenticity and quality but the first three reasons alone will be enough to let me pay a slight premium for graded coins. Of course the actual grade of the coin is what will make me pay an extra premium.

Online PandaCollector

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 07:56:29 PM »
How does everyone feel about a strategy of sending already slabbed coins in for conservatiion, if they are valuable or scarce enough? You might pick up a higher grade while having the peace of mind that the coin is less likely to deteriorate in its slab.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline dobedo

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 08:33:34 PM »
How does everyone feel about a strategy of sending already slabbed coins in for conservatiion, if they are valuable or scarce enough?
At what cost and effort? I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. I won't live that long to see the difference anyway :)

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 08:36:22 PM »
I have done it for very rare and valuable coins, where the cost is insignificant. For the most part though, coins should get conserved up front. I have considered buying some ugly coins to get them conserved and regraded, but I haven't had the guts yet.

Offline pandaclaus

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2011, 01:26:43 PM »
Quote
At what cost and effort? I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. I won't live that long to see the difference anyway :)

Dobedo - It don't take long. Have a look at this MS69 2009 coin, that I just received and I got another... Both going back for a refund, but they are out there...  :w00t:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1776.0

That coin was graded at MS69 at some point in its short life. I have two are now worth melt. When were they graded? who knows but certainly not more than 2 years ago. Conservation may have prevented the deterioration.

Personally I reckon conservation should be included in any coin grading service as standard, not as an add on but a requirement.

The way I see it is like this... Here in the UK, to use/keep a vehicle on the road, we have to have a vehicle road tax license. A license (ie grading)will not be issued without a vehicle roadworthy test certificate from a registered testing station (ie conservation).

The conservation then goes hand in hand with the grading and subsequently protects the investment as best it can.

It'll make grading more expensive though....

Just some thoughts  :001_cool:


 


Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Amen.

Offline larrydreher

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2011, 02:36:47 PM »
Just my own personal thoughts....  It is not very well understood what causes milk spotting on silver coins.  Lots of people have opinions but I've nver seen a scientific study with peer reviewed conclusions.  I'm not aware of any evidence that conservation (ie an acetone bath) would prevent them.

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 02:56:33 PM »
Nonetheless, the probability that the cause is something soluble in acetone is pretty high. In other words, there's lots of reasons to suspect conservation can prevent the problem, and only a few, very odd reasons why conservation would not be able to prevent the problem.

In short, the white spots would have to be roughly equivalent to the "copper" spot toning, but be vulnerable to reactions much deeper into the metal surface. The reactants would have to come from either the metal itself, or some of the reactants would have to come from the metal, and some from the air. I think this is unlikely.

Off the  top of my head, I can't think of anything that's within the metal that can corrode it deeply in a manner similar to "bronze disease". Until proven otherwise, my best guess is that one of the reactants come from the air and/or a foreign residue, and the other is the silver metal itself.

The white color looks to me like silver chloride:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_chloride

If the planchets were pickled in an acid bath to clean and "shine" them up, but the rinsing were incomplete, there would be enough chlorine on the coin to gradually react with the silver, producing white spots. Exposure to the air would provide the moisture needed to ionize the chlorine, and make it reactive. I think that's why the spots don't appear until later - sometimes only after a coin's packaging has been opened, which provides more moisture.

Compounds containing calcium, sodium, etc would be able to neutralize the chlorine, assuming the acetone and/or water alone were not enough to dissolve the residues and rinse it away. Mineral water contains calcium ions that would pick up the chlorine and wash it away. A following rinse with distilled water, alcohol, and/or acetone would remove the remaining calcium ions from the mineral water.

The procedure used at NCS is probably not much different from what I described, though I'm not sure of the exact details.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 09:33:15 PM »
Those milk spots might be impossible to remove because they may have been from the planchet used to strike the coin. Please refer to the following link for the feedback from somebody from NCS.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3990846#Post3990846

I've read in an NGC chat board that these "struck-in" milk spots that came from the manufacturing process of the coin are ignored by NGC when grading. When grading coins, NGC only looks at defects that were introduced to the coin after it was manufactured. This may be the reason why some coins get graded as MS69 even if they have milk spots.

Offline pandaclaus

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2011, 05:43:51 AM »
Thanks mr slick, that may well go some way to answer the milk spots, any ideas what caused the corrosion around the edge of the coin? I'll ask NGC for a copy of the pic they have on file and see if anything can be highlighted.

Whatever it is has not affected the obverse of the coin, as that is fine.

Thanks everybody.

Offline mrslick32

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »
I am not sure what cause the corrosion around the edge of the coin. However, I suggest that you post the picture of your coin and ask NCS at the discussion board that I attached previously. Chris, who works for NCS, might be able to answer your question. My guess though is that the capsule of the coin was opened before the coin was graded and the coin's surface got into contact with something that caused the change on the edges.

Offline badon

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2011, 12:01:53 AM »
Those milk spots might be impossible to remove because they may have been from the planchet used to strike the coin. Please refer to the following link for the feedback from somebody from NCS.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3990846#Post3990846

I've read in an NGC chat board that these "struck-in" milk spots that came from the manufacturing process of the coin are ignored by NGC when grading. When grading coins, NGC only looks at defects that were introduced to the coin after it was manufactured. This may be the reason why some coins get graded as MS69 even if they have milk spots.

"Seen on silver coins, milk spots are created from chemicals used in the manufacture of the planchet before being struck into the finished coin. This struck in nature makes them impossible to safely remove through conservation. U.S. struck silver coins of the 1950's are most famous for having milk spots but many modern issues are also known to develop these kinds of spots."

Once they appear, it is well-known that they cannot be removed. However, I suspect conservation can PREVENT them from appearing. I am skeptical that aqueous chemicals can be "struck-in" deeply enough that they can't be removed with a solvent wash of some sort.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 10:22:35 AM »
It has been more than 2 years since this question was posed and much has changed in the MCC market since then. It would be interesting to get some fresh views on this subject so I`ll ask the question again:

How well received are NGC/PCGS modern coins by buyers in China?

There are more participants from China on the Forum now and those views would be of special interest.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 11:22:29 AM »
I looked up XuHong's eBay store yesterday and was struck by how many graded coins he is carrying now.  Most of the OMP are after yr2000.  Most coins before yr2000 are in slabs.  This is very different than what I remembered a few months back.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 11:43:13 AM »
Sandac,

When I started this topic as I recall there were no graded coins in China dealer`s inventory. Currently Xuhong`s eBay inventory runs about 30% for silver pandas. Other traditional China OMP sellers are selling more graded coins as well.

Regards,

Pandamania

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 11:45:30 AM »
I might add that all of his graded silver panda inventory is in NGC coins.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 03:04:59 PM »
There was a reply earlier that in the last 6 months, the Chinese auctions are getting a higher premium now for grade 69 & 70 MCC as that is what the buyers want.  The market is maturing......

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2013, 01:17:19 AM »
Dealers are still selling mostly OMP in the local market.  However,  online auctions like zhaoonline transitioned to almost all NGC coins since later 2011.  NGC commands 20-30% premium to pcgs with same grade.  And 30-40% to raw coins.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2013, 10:22:42 AM »
Dealers are still selling mostly OMP in the local market.  However,  online auctions like zhaoonline transitioned to almost all NGC coins since later 2011.  NGC commands 20-30% premium to pcgs with same grade.  And 30-40% to raw coins.


Pandgongzi,

Is it reasonable to presume that dealers within China are selling OMP because of the relative difficulty and expense of getting coins graded there?

Is it also reasonable to presume that zhaoonline and China eBay dealers like xuhong have transformed to NGC graded coins because that is what has been transferring since 2011 from US to China buyers and that this is the trend of the future for dealers within China as well?

It would also seem to follow that as more NGC coin supply reaches the market in China that the premium to both PCGS and raw coins will shrink. Do you agree?

Regards,

Pandamania

Offline wittu

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Re: Graded Coins in China
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2013, 10:58:20 AM »
Hi,

another possibility:
They really like to buy OMP and just looove to sell gradet  N16

Greetings from Germany,
wittu  N48